Big questions about choosing schools (pestige, canadian schools, cost, ranking, international SW)

[solar]

I'm in the middle of choosing where I want to do my MSW and am having a hard time deciding. I don't know any social workers so I don't really have anyone to talk to about this. Anyway, I wanted to ask if anyone had any input on how important you thought the school you get your degree at is in terms of working opportunities in the future and salaries etc (even tho obviously MSW's don't make a lot).

Pretty much, I have this list of schools I've gotten into and don't know what to prioritize...big names generally, or highly ranked MSW programs. Two have pretty big names in terms of being Ivy League (Columbia and UPenn) and others don't have big names but have highly ranked programs (The University of Texas at Austin), and others have given me more funding than others (NYU= 17,000, UPenn=13,000, Columbia=5,000). How important would you say it is in terms of finding work to go to an ivy league school vs going to a place that has a highly ranked program for SW (Columbia has already been ruled out though bc they didn't give me enough financial aid). I'm also still waiting to hear back from other schools (BU, BC, Simmons, and McGill) but have to decide on the others this week.

Also, does anyone know anything about doing an MSW in Canada? I'm still waiting to hear back from McGill (where I did my undergrad) but I've heard that Canadian programs are generally not as good as US ones. I really want to go here because I really want to stay in Montreal (where I've been living for the last 6 years and where my longterm partner is), but don't know if this would hurt me in terms of working in the US or abroad. I'm really interested in working with sexual survivors clinically both in the US and in Colombia, where my family is from so I want to keep my options open! In terms of international social work, is it best to go to an Ivy League or American school?

Last question I promise, at UPenn I got into a dual degree program in SW and Social Policy. This is more expensive but I think it might open doors for me in the future in terms of getting a higher paid job or potentially switching fields in the future (macro level work is something I might be interested in doing in the future though right now my interests are mainly clinical). Do you think that getting a dual degree makes a big difference?

I've been getting a lot of mixed advice from people who aren't social workers. Some say that going to a well known school is best because just having that name attached to your degree opens doors for you, but others say that it isn't the place where you got the degree that matters, but the work that you do once you are finished, so I should just go to the cheapest one since paying back loans is crazy on a SW salary. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Thank you so SO much for your help! ANY help would be really really appreciate it. This decision is obviously a big one and I'm just not sure what to prioritize or who to listen to. I know where I want to be but that might not be the best career-wise, and I'm also scared of taking on a TON of debt. How did you find paying off student loans? Was it as bad as I imagine?

[arcoventry]

Hi Solar, welcome to the forums

If you haven't already seen it, there is an amazing post written by an MSW/professor regarding the importance of graduating from a "big name" school. Their opinion is, obviously, just an opinion, but he/she has experience and seems extremely knowledgeable on the matter. I hope it helps you come to a decision as quickly as it helped me.

[roxyshoe]

I think the most important thing is to go to the school that suits you best, individually, in its curriculum and field work opportunities. It being financially sound is also really important. To me, UPenn is a great option for you because of the dual degree you got accepted to. I do think it can make a big difference doing a dual degree, but there is also the option of sticking with one degree and making room in your schedule for more electives in the other degree's program. I definitely know what you mean in terms of the extra cost of a dual degree, and in terms of that it really might not be worth it.

Otherwise, NYU is probably your best bet. The school having a good name, I think, is not a big deal for social work. BUT NYU happens to have a really good name and a great program, in a great location, and they offered you good money! Then again you have to consider the extra cost of living in NY in general.

If I were you, I'd definitely say no to columbia, and choose between UPENN and NYU depending on which school has the best field work + curriculum for your interests.

p.s I'm going to be taking out a ton of money in loans, and I am already in debt from undergrad. It's just a chance I am taking, but I really feel like my education at the school I chose will help pay them off

[arcoventry]

p.s I'm going to be taking out a ton of money in loans, and I am already in debt from undergrad. It's just a chance I am taking, but I really feel like my education at the school I chose will help pay them off

Just to play devil's advocate, I would take a moment to do some thorough calculations on what you pay now monthly, and how much of a difference doubling or tripling your principal loan amount will make, both in monthly payments as well as total amount of accumulated interest over the years. I'll share some of my information to make the example concrete:

I personally have $25,000 of under graduate loans. With my current repayment option, I am paying $350 a month. If I were to take out a loan to cover NYU tuition, not even counting living expenses, I would be tripling my total principal I owe in student loans. For the sake of example, knowing there are less aggressive loan-repayment plans available to us, I triple my monthly payments, causing me to owe $1050 a month. Add that to rent, food, etc. Even if I land a job paying $50,000 right out of grad-school (a long shot in our field), after taxes (assuming 25% bracket) I am only bringing home 3 grand a month. A very large portion of that is going to loans.

As for the dual-degree, I am not inclined to believe a dual degree in public policy is worth spending an extra tuition on. Everyone in social work I have spoken to has said that if you graduate from a clinical focus school, you will have what you need to make the eventual transition to policy and administration. There is no better way to learn about policy than work in the systems for a while. Once you get real life experience in the field, working with populations, you will gain opportunities to work in a policy-focused job. It seems to be the natural progression of things, and since you mentioned not being interested in that work immediately, it might save you the money to get real life experience and find your way to policy gradually.

[allyba]

People please, please, please heed this information above. Loans are serious. You can´t get rid of them by declaring bankruptcy at least not at this time and they can garnish your wages to get payments from you. This is when they take the money directly from what your employer is going to pay you before you even get your paycheck. It is serious business. Think you can really afford to take out 60,000? Do you know what that will make your monthly payments? Do the calculations and act responsibily for the sake of everyone. Go to a school you can afford especially for a degree in social work where earning potential is lower. If you can afford an expensive school then great. But please people don´t just sign on the line for your financial aid awards. Think about it. Understand it. Way too many of you probably won´t. I know this. I worked at a college for a while.

You don´t have to be in a rush either. Take a few years to save and work if it is better for you.

Edited April 11, 2012 by allyba

[SofieCat]

FANTASTIC advice, allyba.

[solar]

Hey folks,

Thanks so much for the great advice. None of you have mentioned UT Austin yet, It's a pretty highly ranked program and has some international placement opportunities, which is great for someone like me whose interested in working abroad. What do you think is the value of having those international placements if you are thinking of working in the future for NGO's abroad?

Also, what are your thoughts on getting an MSW at a Canadian school? There's an accreditation agreement so that accredited schools in Canada are totally recognized in the states. Do you think getting a degree from McGill (which is still cheaper than any of the other schools mentioned above, even taking into account financial aid) would hurt me? I did my undergrad there so I'm not sure if that will hurt me. I've heard Canadian schools for SW aren't as good, so I'm worried it will hurt me for getting a job internationally or in the US. Any thoughts? Has anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks SO much!!

[roxyshoe]

Yeah I know loans are serious, but I am super fortunate enough to have family that is going to do their best to help me pay them back. If I were seriously on my own I wouldn't be going to grad school at all next year or anytime in the near future. Sorry for not mentioning that important detail, heh. But yes, do take loans even more seriously than I already do if you are completely on your own with repaying them.

[roxyshoe]

I just said the word serious a lot. it's late i have my last exam of undergrad in the morning ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[arcoventry]

Yeah I know loans are serious, but I am super fortunate enough to have family that is going to do their best to help me pay them back. If I were seriously on my own I wouldn't be going to grad school at all next year or anytime in the near future. Sorry for not mentioning that important detail, heh. But yes, do take loans even more seriously than I already do if you are completely on your own with repaying them.

Yes, that's an important detail x) My parents paid for my high school and then cut me loose. I was fortunate to get undergrad grants and scholarships, and I am fortunate enough to have worked a job for the past few years that allowed me to save enough money to pay tuition out of pocket without loans. This is all a perfect combination of hard work, luck, and circumstance. So if you know personally you can take out the loans, by all means, go to that dream school! I won't say I'm not a little jealous

Hey Solar, I don't know anything about Canadian Universities, social work programs or otherwise, sorry!

Edited April 12, 2012 by arcoventry

[blueled]

Just to play devil's advocate, I would take a moment to do some thorough calculations on what you pay now monthly, and how much of a difference doubling or tripling your principal loan amount will make, both in monthly payments as well as total amount of accumulated interest over the years. I'll share some of my information to make the example concrete:

I personally have $25,000 of under graduate loans. With my current repayment option, I am paying $350 a month. If I were to take out a loan to cover NYU tuition, not even counting living expenses, I would be tripling my total principal I owe in student loans. For the sake of example, knowing there are less aggressive loan-repayment plans available to us, I triple my monthly payments, causing me to owe $1050 a month. Add that to rent, food, etc. Even if I land a job paying $50,000 right out of grad-school (a long shot in our field), after taxes (assuming 25% bracket) I am only bringing home 3 grand a month. A very large portion of that is going to loans.

As for the dual-degree, I am not inclined to believe a dual degree in public policy is worth spending an extra tuition on. Everyone in social work I have spoken to has said that if you graduate from a clinical focus school, you will have what you need to make the eventual transition to policy and administration. There is no better way to learn about policy than work in the systems for a while. Once you get real life experience in the field, working with populations, you will gain opportunities to work in a policy-focused job. It seems to be the natural progression of things, and since you mentioned not being interested in that work immediately, it might save you the money to get real life experience and find your way to policy gradually.

Is 50k really that of a long shot? I know in LA County, the Department of Child and Family Services pays $53k starting salary for newly graduated MSWs...

[footballfan90]

I made up to about 60k in child welfare, including overtime, about 2 years post MSW in California. When I worked for the Veterans Administration 9 years post-MSW I negotiated up to about 68k, not in California. This was a competitive job and at the high end of the market.

I know this is slightly off-topic, but would you mind sharing with us your experience working for the VA? I am beginning my MSW this fall and hope to complete my second year practicum there. Do you suggest a particular concentration or any specific classes for an MSW student hoping to obtain employment? Did you find being a VA social worker to be a complete burnout job (hence the substantially larger salary)? Lastly, do they tend to mostly hire MSWs with many years of experience, or does someone fresh out of graduate school have a chance?

[vpsf]

Hello Everyone,

I've noticed quite a few discussions around average salary working in social services and people wondering what they could expect to make after they graduate. I'll share my agency's pay scale to give you an idea, but realize that my agency is a bit of an anomaly plus I live in San Francisco where cost of living is high so salary tends to be a bit higher too.

I work at a non-profit in San Francisco. I coordinate a youth program and make $44k per year with generous benefits (4 weeks vacation, 2 weeks paid sick time, comped monthly public transit pass, retirement contributions, flexible schedule, etc.). My agency has different pay scales for different position levels. If you're a specialist then you can make anywhere between 37-42k, coordinators make between 42-45k, coordinators who supervise staff make btwn. 45-50k, program managers btwn. 50-60k, senior managers and directors btwn. 65-80k, executive management/directors btwn. 85-120k. I believe our executive director and all 5 or so members of the executive management team make over 100k. It's insane how much they make in comparison to the rest of us! Most EDs at other agencies don't even come close to hitting 100k.

I started working here as a specialist then was promoted to coordinator a couple of years later and have hit a ceiling because I don't have a master's degree. My agency tends to favor hiring managers who have graduate degrees. We do have 1 or 2 managers who don't, but that's because they have tons of experience, worked their way up, and the position happened to become available at the right time, so it was a bit of luck and timing.

There's one coordinator in our youth department who recently got her master's degree in non-profit administration, so I'm sure she's first in line for a promotion if a manager position ever opened up in our department. I need to go back to school to get my master's if I want to be able to get in line with the rest of them. San Francisco is saturated with insanely qualified people with impressive academic pedigree, so graduate school is a must for me to play the game.

I think the disheartening thing for me is knowing I would be lucky to find a job that pays 44k after I graduate and I'd be in debt. Woohoo! Tons of debt, all to go back to what I was already doing without a master's degree. It's such a catch 22 situation.

I think for those who don't have a lot of social services experience then you'll most likely have to start at the bottom post-graduate, but for those who are going to school with solid experience under their belts then there's a higher chance of getting a mid-level position that pays a bit better. It also depends on where you end up living. San Francisco is ridiculously saturated with social service agencies (you can probably find a CBO serving just about any population/need), which is fantastic, but there are also a lot of qualified individuals going after those jobs.

I noticed there's been a bit of a debate going on about whether prestige matters when it comes to social work. Well, I wish it wasn't the case and it really shouldn't be, but there are agencies like mine who go gaga over pedigree. Ooh, so and so has a graduate degree?? OOOOH. It's from where?? Double oooh! It totally sucks that this is the case, but there are many shallow people out there who take prestige into consideration when it really shouldn't matter.

I also think prestige matters less as experience increases and vice versa. If you're straight out of school and don't have a lot of experience then name might help you a bit, but if you have tons of relevent experience then school name probably won't do too much for you because your experience will speak for itself. I think there were valid points made about both prestige and less prestige. At the end of the day, you should choose the school/program that is the best match for your interests, financial situation, future goals, etc.

It really does come down to personal preference. For some, moving to NYC would be nuts due to the cost of living, but for others, like myself, it isn't such a huge jump in cost of living. San Francisco ain't cheap! So, the initial shock of rent, etc. won't be so stark. I don't know if this is necessarily a good or bad thing.

Anyway, for those who are San Francisco-bound, feel free to let me know if you have any questions about where to live, cost of rent, etc. etc. I'd be more than happy to help! I totally get how difficult it is to relocate to a place you aren't too familiar with. Lots of changes! I also have a 2 bdrm. 1 bathroom apt. I'll need to rent out! Anyone in NYC want to swap apts.??? I'll create a separate post about the apt. once I finalize which school I'll be attending and what not.

Good luck to you all, wherever you end up! I'm so glad I found this forum. My friends must be sick of me talking about grad. school app. stuff by now!

[MSW13]

Just my two cents:

Regarding Canadian schools, for the most part, you cant go wrong. We have amazing programs with highly skilled and seasoned professors. I think the biggest thing is to choose the 'right' school. If the program focus is not right for your career direction, you wont like it no matter how 'ivy league' the school is. Also, your student debt would not be as crazy as it would be if you choose to go to an American school.

Regarding pay, I have my BSW and have not worked for under 50K for at least the past 6yrs or so. In my experience, an MSW in Canada will earn you around 60K to start. Clearly which area of social work you work in can make all of the difference. Also, I need to be clear about job postings. If the job requires an MSW, that is when you make the big bucks. You wont necessarily earn more than a BSW if the job doesn't require that designation. You can make a lot of money doing social work--usually in private practice.

Edited April 13, 2012 by MSW12 hopeful

[footballfan90]

I was actually quite amazed at the level of autonomy afforded at the VA. Nobody told me how to practice, what methodologies to use, or tracked my time or calendar. They are good about hooking new grads up with clinical supervision (I went there with a independent practice license) and there are many opportunities for continuing ed.

It is very hard to get things done there. Everything happens at snail's pace. Bureaucracy is thick. Sometimes supervisors are incompetent but have been around a long time. People don't get fired (even when they should). Services tend to be disjointed for vets, which is frustrating.

I applied several times before I got an interview. It was in a metro city so a lot of competition perhaps, but I was surprised I did not get interviewed earlier with my strong practice background.

I highly recommend a VA field placement if you would like to eventually work with the VA. Those are almost always clinical, and often paid. You have to get the experience in school- you can't, for instance, get your MSW and then go volunteer at the VA. They'll only take interns in a degree program.

I worked in a new program that launched, and there were several people fresh out of school, but they mostly had specific background in the type of issue we were treating. It generally is more competitive work. The salary isn't high because of burnout, it's because federal salaries tend to average higher. The medical benefits are actually kind of pricey, surprisingly- I think about $500 a month to cover a family.

Thank you for the very informative and helpful response! Do you have any advice in securing a second-year field placement with the VA? The university I will likely attend this fall is located in a very competitive city for social work. There are several other MSW programs with students inevitably competing for a few coveted VA placements, so I am mindful that I will absolutely not be a shoo-in. I can assume that first-year grades play a significant role. I am still waiting for my first-level placement, and I indicated in my application that I am interested in a career with the VA--ideally as a housing coordinator or case manager. I am a recent college graduate, and my internship and volunteer experiences are all over the place (child welfare, corrections, seniors). Hopefully my placement in the upcoming year will fill in a few gaps and allow me to have direct client contact with people struggling with similar issues that vets face (homelessness, substance absuse, etc). I appreciate any suggestions you may have!