From Medicine to Ministry

[qoheleth]

I'm a 26 year old M.D. student who has realized that, while I will be finishing my degree, I was not in fact called to the field the of medicine.

I had previously lost my respect for ministry and was hurt by the church after being exposed to a good amount of politics and hypocrisy. I didn't want to be a part of something I didn't believe in.

As I have lived and made a few more mistakes of my own, I realized that we are all broken, ministers not excluded, and I have rediscovered a love for exploring Scripture, Theology, and the role of the Church.

I am now looking to apply to M.Div programs for Fall 2013 with the intent of a ministerial career in the United Methodist Church.

Unfortunately, because I am receiving this call so late in life the only academic exposure I have to theology is the 12 required credit hours of basic old/new testament, christian faith/formation at my Nazarene undergraduate university where I graduated with a B.S. in Biology.

I am interested in more mainline seminaries with theologians I respect and have enjoyed reading. So far my interest list includes:

Duke

Candler

Garrett

Vanderbilt

Chicago

Drew

Princeton

Regent

Gordon-Conwell

Boston

PTS

Yale

Harvard

Notre Dame

Fuller

Wheaton

St. Andrews (Scotland)

I'm afraid Harvard/Yale might be too liberal for my tastes, while Fuller/Wheaton too evangelical. Duke would probably be my first choice at this point with Candler a close second.

I'm from the midwest, so geographically I would prefer to stay close to home.

I guess I'm wondering if I should pursue some more undergraduate work in Philosophy/Theology before applying to M.Div programs.

I'm also wondering how I should go about choosing a seminary without having been previously exposed to much graduate level theology.

Also, I understand many of these programs (being university-based) are fairly academic... so I am looking for a program that is equally well versed in spiritual formation and practical ministry.

Any advice is appreciated.

[Balatro]

Well, first off -- your decision not to pursue medicine further won't hurt you in the slightest but should you get called before an Admissions Committee (don't count on it, unless you're up for a presitigous scholarship, it's unlikely to happen) it's likely to come up so have something ready for that just in case.

What classification of liberal are you using here? The political spectrum is considerably different from the theological one. There are theological conservatives who support equal (homosexual) rights and pro-choice and vice versa, so having an idea of what you mean by "Yale/Harvard might be too liberal" would help.

I graduated from Yale in 2011 and I'd say most of the students were liberal in a Jeffersonian sort of way, while still supporting marriage equality and minority/women's rights (a professor pounded it into a bunch of our heads that it's important for the Church to be pro-life but also pro-women's rights and that it's possible to be both so I always catch myself trying to be careful with word choice here) but realizing the importance of scripture without throwing the baby out with the bathwater (unlike places like Harvard - I kid, sort of).

Most of the places on your list are solid choices, I would make some alterations though if you're headed down the path with the UMC (especially if your intention really is on mainstream theology) though - drop the following:

Fuller

Regent (I assume you mean the one founded by Pat Robertson?)

Notre Dame (their MDiv, I believe, is Roman Catholic only)

Gordon-Conwell

Wheaton (The UMC is moving more and more to an inclusive state with the LGBT community, which Wheaton, as I recall, is considered the most unfriendly college for. I would imagine that despite its Methodist past, Wheaton is to the Methodist what Nashotah is to the Episcopalians)

Your current background in theology/religious studies is perfectly fine as is - I had several professors and my advisor who suggested I take Intro to OT/NT and change my Religious Studies major to something else. Why? For the sole purpose that you'll still be required to take those courses in seminary. Plenty of my fellow students had little to no background in theology/RS and excelled at Yale and I know my close UG friends reported the same from Vanderbilt and PTS.

Helping you narrow down the list more will require us knowing where you stand (currently) with regards to your own theology. Now, we don't need a list of positions you support and oppose but we do need more information. All of the schools you have listed (minus Harvard - sorry again) will prepare you for practical ministry and give you a solid base in academic theology to make you a better minister and leave the door open for academic theology should that bug bite.

Also, the ideal seminary will be one that isn't in your comfort zone. Should you attend a place that is exactly where you theologically, you won't grow and your church (and you) will suffer for it. You need to make sure there is enough balance across the entire theological spectrum.

[theologyofyourface]

I'm going to Chicago in the fall for my MA in divinity and I have no theological background at all. I am currently a secretary and was a poetry major in college. I'm 27.

My husband is graduating from General Theological Seminary with an MDiv and his BA was in General Studies. (Yes, you can get a BA in General Studies. I didn't know this until I met him.)

It can't hurt to take a few classes, but you really don't need to have vast experience in the subject or anything.

Then again, I was rejected by Yale and Harvard, so maybe take my advice with a grain of salt, eh?

[Guest]

I tried to make this as readable as possible. Forgive my perfectionism.

Pursuing Undergraduate Education Before an MDiv Program

Bottom Line Recommendation: Go straight to an MDiv program.

Undergraduate Coursework Before an MDiv?

Do not pursue more undergraduate work unless you want more advanced standing in several course areas, but also know that they sometimes do not accept classes even if it seems like a fair shot. I recommend going straight for an MDiv and not wasting any time in undergraduate. Besides, you were already engaging in professional doctoral studies so it seems impractical to go back to undergraduate.

Also, two undergraduate courses are generally required to equal one graduate course. So it would still be better to take the basic graduate course and then take a more advanced class if you are determined to learn more.

MDiv's are always designed to accommodate people who have never taken a religion/philosophy course in their life. In fact, the majority of MDiv students have never taken a religion course so you will not need to worry about feeling under-prepared. You already took 4 religion classes, which means you are already more prepared than many MDiv students. In addition, there are often electives available (Duke and Candler both have a ton) that you can use to develop competencies in specific areas. All you really NEED to get in and be competent is a bachelor's degree and good grounding in a liberal arts education; you have this.

The Nature of MDiv Programs

MDiv programs generally have you take courses in NT, OT, Theology, Church History, World Religions/Missions, and Ministry. The more mainline/evangelical an institution is, the more emphasis there will be on ministry. Most institutions have ample emphasis on ministry preparation and spiritual formation but others, like Harvard, may not require any ministry at all (at least I have heard).

How To Choose a Seminary

Bottom Line Recommendation: Apply and go only to an institution that fits you well and that you aren't hesitant about. To really see if it is a good fit, read each school's mission statement and look specifically at professor's interests to see if you resonate with the institution.

Fit

As for school, you can apply anywhere you want because you likely have great credentials. Just know that it is not so much about academic achievement as it is about fit. Once you have proven that you are academically capable (and I think being in professional doctoral studies is fairly good proof if you did well) the concern is about how you will fit into the school's culture and theological bent. Do your interests align well with the theological ideas and initiatives that are supported by a particular institution? This is the primary question for any admissions committee.

Also, you have an expressed interest in a balance of ministry, spiritual formation, and academics. Places like Harvard and Yale will be more fiercely academic while a place like Duke or Candler will be a very nice balance of world-class academics and excellent ministry experience. I feel that Duke is particularly distinguishable for this reason.

Liberal, Moderate, or Evangelical?

You already don't seem too excited by evangelical institutions, so I would recommend not wasting your time applying to them. I applied to evangelical places because I am somewhat evangelical but I didn't REALLY want to go to an evangelical school. I wanted to be in a place that is more diverse and outside my comfort zone. So, even after getting recommendations, writing several essays, and paying a lot on application fees, I immediately rejected the schools that were evangelical (or way too liberal) even when I was accepted. I would recommend applying to a healthy number of places (at least 5) but make sure you would be ecstatic to go to any one of those places. If you got into Candler (highly likely) and Wheaton, you would clearly choose Candler. For this reason I'd skip on applying to evangelical institutions. You also don't want an overly-liberal place.

One great way to identify an institution's theological bent is to read first its mission statement and check out the profiles of ALL of the professors there. Their interests, books, and research activities should be all listed. I did this for myself and could then easily distinguish between what would be a great fit for me and what institutions were actually terrible for me. More specifically, my #1 institution literally has over 26 professors I would LOVE to work with. Contrastingly, institutions I thought were great ended up only having 1-2 professors I'm interested in working with even though they were world-class institutions. I did this evaluation process with perhaps 20 institutions and realized only 5 of them really fit me well. If you do this you will have a list of institutions that you are confident you will love (P.S. it took me about 20 minutes or so per school to evaluate them).

Geographic Location

I understand your preference to be close to home. The thing is there aren't many phenomonal schools in the Midwest besides Chicago, Wheaton, and Notre Dame, all three of which don't really fit with your interests as strongly as a place like Duke or Candler. For this reason I would recommend forgetting about geographic proximity. You will likely be no more than 12-14 hours from home at worst and it would only be for 3 years. In addition, schools like recruiting from outside their region. At Duke, for example, 50% of their students may be from the south but it gives you a competitive edge in applying to be from the Midwest because they like to recruit from other regions. I was specifically told by an admissions councilor at a very competitive school in the South that I caught his attention because I was from the Midwest and I was admitted into the program that only accepts 25 students a year.

My Personal Recommendation on schools to consider:

Bottom Line: Candler or Duke ought to be your top two with your interests in mind, but still apply to at least 5 institutions (I applied to 12 but consider 3 of my applications a waste of time).

Keep in mind a diversity of perspectives are always welcome, even at Wheaton, so it isn't as if you won't be tolerated. Nonetheless, it is much better to fit in than to be an outsider. I am an outsider at my undergraduate religion department (too "liberal" even though I'm best categorized as a loose evangelical) and it is not ideal. With your desire for a more balanced theological institution that emphasizes spiritual formation and ministry, I recommend that you focus on the following institutions from your list in a ranked order (numbering repeated for comparable institutions) with the better fits ranked higher. Institutions not mentioned from your previous list are either evangelical or, in the case of ND, programs exclusively meant for Roman Catholics)

1. Duke (Pays up to $9,000 per field experience, which can be done over the summer or during school. You can do up to three field experiences even though only two are required if you want to earn extra money. In addition, they have a lot of great scholarships which you will likely qualify for)

1. Candler (Required participation in spiritual formation groups and plenty of ministry experiences in Atlanta to choose from. A lot of fantastic scholarships)

2. Drew (It's a good place in my opinion but SMU/Perkins may be better overall)

2. PTS (Considered to be somewhat liberal by many; also, I took out Princeton proper because you are preparing for ministry)

2. Vanderbilt (My impression of the school is that a liberal LGBT/Feminist approach to theology is predominant there, but that is just how I see it)

3. Chicago (Extremely tough to get into and a relatively expensive place to live. Scholarships are not fantastic unless you are highly ranked among the admitted class)

3. Boston (I'll assume you meant College and not University. If you meant University, I'd skip on considering it personally unless you are blown away by the professors there)

3. St. Andrews (Overseas can be nice but you are an international student and would have to consider the additional challenges of being categorized as such)

3. Yale

3. Harvard

P.S. Where is Southern Methodist University Perkins School of Theology or Union Theological Seminary? These might be great places for you as well. I like SMU a lot personally and we seem to have similar criteria for choosing a school.

FInal Thoughts

I hope this helps and isn't confusing. Switching academic careers in itself is a very confusing process but it's much simpler than you think. For additional enrichment you might consider reading:

How to Choose a Seminary

R.R. Reno's 2009 Rankings (take these with a grain of salt but do consider his thoughts)

Seminaries for Evangelicals (good advice on picking a seminary)

Also, here is a simplified list of NRC rankings of religion programs (keep in mind these are based on PhD's but it nonetheless gives a good indication of how schools are perceived):

1 Duke

2 U. of Chicago

3 UNC Chapel Hill

4 Notre Dame

5 Emory

6 Harvard

7 Brown

8 Princeton

9 Yale

10 Boston College

Edited April 27, 2012 by Windfish

[theologyofyourface]

Windfish, I love what you said about fit being the most important thing. That's so so so true, especially for ministry. I dunno how my husband could have gotten through these past three years if the school he attended hadn't been such a good fit for him-- not just theologically, but in terms of liturgy, mission, history, and academic focus.

[qoheleth]

Awesome! Thanks for the timely and informative replies.

Also, the ideal seminary will be one that isn't in your comfort zone. Should you attend a place that is exactly where you theologically, you won't grow and your church (and you) will suffer for it. You need to make sure there is enough balance across the entire theological spectrum.

I really appreciate this sentiment.

After the feedback I've created an updated list of 12:

Duke

Candler

Drew

Princeton Theological Seminary

Vanderbilt

Garrett

Chicago

Boston College

Yale

Pittsburgh Theological Seminary

Southern Methodist - Perkins

Union Theological Seminary

I found this list of UMC University Senate approved Seminaries: http://www.gbhem.org..._Seminaries.htm

SMU and Boston College aren't on the list. Any others of note there?

Edited April 28, 2012 by qoheleth

[Guest]

Awesome! Thanks for the timely and informative replies.

I really appreciate this sentiment.

After the feedback I've created an updated list of 12:

Duke

Candler

Drew

Princeton Theological Seminary

Vanderbilt

Garrett

Chicago

Boston College

Yale

Pittsburgh Theological Seminary

Southern Methodist - Perkins

Union Theological Seminary

I found this list of UMC University Senate approved Seminaries: http://www.gbhem.org..._Seminaries.htm

SMU and Boston College aren't on the list. Any others of note there?

SMU is on there it is just listed as Perkins School of Theology. The only other one that catches my eye there is Claremont School of Theology but it is still not as highly reputable as places like Candler and is definitely more liberal. Evidently there was a petition to remove their Methodist affiliation at the current General Conference sessions so I don't know if the school and the denomination are in dispute with one another or if that was just some random petition. Ask around. But Claremont may be worth looking at nonetheless. It is particularly good for philosophy of religion.

[Balatro]

After the feedback I've created an updated list of 12:

Duke

Candler

Drew

Princeton Theological Seminary

Vanderbilt

Garrett

Chicago

Boston College

Yale

Pittsburgh Theological Seminary

Southern Methodist - Perkins

Union Theological Seminary

I don't know anything about Pittsburgh so I'll defer on that one. Boston College is a Jesuit (Catholic) institution so their theology tends to lean in that direction but Jesuits also tend to be fairly liberal (at least by Catholic standards). You may want to look into Boston University - a historically United Methodist Church but they have since officially separated (but a lot of UMC people still make up their MDiv program). BU use to advertise their MDiv more and the fact that MLK did his PhD in systematic theology there but every time they do, it rehashes an old 1980's debacle when it was proven that MLK plagarized a significant portion of his dissertation (odd fact for you).

PTS (Princeton) is moderate from what I've seen visiting an old college friend who attended there for his MDiv. There are quite a bit of liberals and conservative evangelicals but the issue I noticed is that those two groups were louder and drowned out the more populace moderates.

Vanderbilt is a great UMC seminary but as pointed out above (by Windfish), they're big on Feminist and Queer Theology but still have a very powerful program. I'd say their graduates, academically, fair better than Candler. If you have the slightest interest in either topic, you'll be hard pressed to find a better faculty anywhere.

Union Theological Seminary is one of the most liberal seminaries available and also big on Queer Theology. That said, it's a phenomenal school and with its attachment to Columbia University, you have a vast array of resources available to you. There are plenty of moderates, don't get me wrong but my gut feeling says that conservatives who enroll end up transferring out by summer.

Claremont is a solid school, while I can't speak for their MDiv program, I do know that their financial aid for PhD students is terrible. As far as the spat between Claremont and UMC as pointed out by Windfish, it started over Claremont's desire to become a more secular school and lay the framework to begin training Imams and Rabbis. The UMC wasn't happy with this and feared that UMC students would suffer in their ministerial training due to Claremont spreading themselves too thin. So, the UMC threatened to withhold the $800,000 they give the school every year unless Claremont can show that the UMC students won't suffer as a result of their proposed changes. Claremont peddle-paddled around for months on it but eventually show the UMC how they would handle this proposed change (mainly by creating a separate college for the Muslims and Jews) and the UMC agreed that it was satisfactory and as a result, lifted the sanctions.

Side note - as of the last talk I hard the Dean of the theology school make, Claremont is moving ahead with its plans to also open up a college(s) to train Buddhist and Hindus, so if they do it (and ALL of the colleges are successful), Claremont could prove to be quite the interesting school in the next decade or two.

[single_individual]

I did a ThM at Duke last year - It was a great experience for me but of course there are folks there (in the MDiv as well) who are jockeying to be recognized to move on to a good PhD program etc. This can be annoying.

I worked a lot with the overlap of medicine and ministry - there is a strong desire to have those sort of conversations at Duke and your education thus far could be a real asset. Ray Barfield, my advisor, is a pedes oncologist and philosopher who works with med students who come over to the div school for their humanities training. It is a wonderful collaboration that is just a few years old. Alan Verhey and Amy Laura Hall (among others) would be interested in this conversation.

If you are looking to forget medicine - you can do that at Duke as well. One thing you will get at Duke, I can't speak for other institutions in this matter, is a desire to adhere to some sort of Christian orthodoxy with a very strong emphasis on the role of the church. This does not mean that liberal thoughts are discouraged - it is just more tempered with an emphasis on our position as a Christian community historically.

[Guest]

Windfish, I love what you said about fit being the most important thing. That's so so so true, especially for ministry. I dunno how my husband could have gotten through these past three years if the school he attended hadn't been such a good fit for him-- not just theologically, but in terms of liturgy, mission, history, and academic focus.

I'm glad you liked it! Fit is absolutely important. You don't have to agree with everyone to get your mind stretched, but it is essential to feel like you belong!

Union Theological Seminary is one of the most liberal seminaries available and also big on Queer Theology. That said, it's a phenomenal school and with its attachment to Columbia University, you have a vast array of resources available to you. There are plenty of moderates, don't get me wrong but my gut feeling says that conservatives who enroll end up transferring out by summer.

Man my perceptions are way off I guess. I always liked UTS for its rich theological history but I suppose that doesn't necessarily determine its current state. Still worth looking into I suppose even if you end up rejecting it later.

[11Q13]

Dear Windfish, I'm glad to hear your enthusiasm. Others have done a great job of offering you direction so I'll offer an encouragement. I hope you will not do ministry instead of medicine, but use them together. I often feel like I did more good for the world when I was doing simple manual labor I did volunteering various places than the esoterica I deal with daily in scholarship. I never gave any thought to becoming a missionary until less than a year before I was on the other side of the planet, and I admit I'm still a bit uncomfortable with the appellation for what it conveys to some people. But, a doctor with an MDiv is essentially the perfect missionary. If you haven't considered using your talents for the less fortunate abroad, I hope it will be something you ruminate on.