How to ensure my rotation lab has funding?

[SlickMcFavorite]

Hi everyone,

I am in the process of trying to figure out which lab I'd like to do my first rotation in. I'm weighing a lot of factors, but I think the most important is: Can the PI afford to take me as a grad student for the long haul

I am looking at four labs, all the labs have at least one R01 grant from the NIH except for one. Should I rule out the lab without an R01 or are there other, comparable, funding awards from other agencies? Is it rude/inappropriate to ask the professor about their funding situation? How would I go about asking these kinds of questions?

I know the R01 is the "gold standard" of grants but perhaps there are tons of PIs who do just fine with a bunch of grants from other sources...

Edited May 2, 2012 by SlickMcFavorite

[Eigen]

At the rotation level, I wouldn't worry so much about funding. It's something that you will very quickly find out as you're in the lab doing the rotation.

While the total level of funding is important, it's also important to see what the PI does with the money they have. Do they prioritize RAships for students? New equipment? Do they second-guess and penny-pinch every expenditure? You'll find people with great funding that don't act like it, and people with lesser funding that really know how to make every bit of it count.

[SlickMcFavorite]

Thanks Eigen,

I'd just like to make sure that I limit my rotations to labs that are financially able to take me on as a student -- I kind of imagined that as the point of the rotations, to find a lab you can thesis in.

I've done a search with the NSF and the NIH now, and still can't find any grants for one of the labs. I know it must have some kind of funding, because professors are required to, but I'd like to know what it is (and its duration).

[Eigen]

There are two parts of a rotation- one is to determine how you fit into the lab/like the research, and the other is to learn skills. It's not uncommon to want to stay in the first lab you rotate through, and then do other rotations to gain specific skill sets.

I would ask point-blank if the PI could take you on. Here, actually, the PIs in our Bio department won't take on students for rotations if they don't have permenant spots for them, so yours may well be the same.

It also might be that if you like a lab enough, it would be worth it to you to stay on a TAship longer but work in that area.

[SlickMcFavorite]

So, would a point-blank question read like:

"I am interested in doing one of my rotations in your lab if you are able to take me on"

or more blunt:

"I am interested in doing one of my rotations in your lab if you have the funding to take me on as a graduate student"

It seems a little forward, but I've been a PI's employee for the past few years...perhaps the student-PI relationship is more frank...

[aberrant]

So far, none of the professors that I have talked to like to talk about funding with any students. What a graduate student should concern about is the science that you/they are doing in the lab. While I would say that funding should only be an issue when you have to choose (and ultimately join) a lab at the end of your first year, my former PI would argue that I should never be concerned about funding -- it is the department's job to ensure you get your stipend/funding. On the other hand, just because a lab has funding from NIH/NSF/etc. that doesn't mean they'll allocate these money to RAship, like Eigen mentioned.

While I would like to think that "PIs in (a) department won't take on students for rotations if they don't have permenant spots for them", my former PI was one of those who would love to recruit new grad students to rotate in our lab even though our lab does not have funding for RA'ship for any graduate students, MS or PhD.

For that reason, if you are really concerned about funding, I would go with "I am interested in doing one of my rotations in your lab if you are able to take me on", or something like "Are you going to recruit/take any graduate students in (your 2nd year)?".

I do know PIs that are sensitive with discussion/talking about funding issues with students, and they may be offended by students who seemed to be concerned only by the funding of the lab, but not the problems that they are dealing in the lab.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited May 3, 2012 by aberrant

[Spore]

I think most ethical PIs will unerstand that a rotation student has only a limited number of labs to rotate through to ultimately decide on a thesis lab. It is not fair to the student to do a rotation in a lab that is simply not available.

I always asked, "will you be accepting grad students into your lab in the Fall?"

And I always got a straightforward answer.

No one wants to be the student that after 4 rotations still cannot find a lab...that spells doom and a usual kick-out from the program.

[SlickMcFavorite]

Thank you for all your responses.

I understand abberant's point about PIs not wanting to talk about funding issues and would rather I be into the science. I am totally into the science, but I am also four years out of my undergrad now, and stability is pretty important to me. My fiance is moving with me (and making some major sacrifices) so I can attend this program and I intend to bust my ass and get my PhD as efficiently as possible.

I have heard too many horror stories of grad students stranded in their 3rd year and whatnot. While circumstances are never entirely within one's control, I can at least avoid putting myself in a bad one.

[TakeruK]

Before I applied to PhD programs, I sent an email to profs that I was interested in at each school, said I am applying for Fall 2012, said that I'm interested in their research and confirmed that they are still interested in these problems (as research websites could be fairly out of date). Then I also said that I'm interested in working with them and whether or not they would be taking on students that are joining in the Fall 2012 cohort.

Not everyone responded, but most of them interpreted this as a less blunt "do you have funding" question and answered it that way. One person said that they would be interested in me, encouraged me to apply but warned that he currently has no grant to cover the work I wanted to do with him, so that I would have to do TAships until we applied and won a grant together. So it seems like asking if they are going to take on students in the future is an indirect way of asking about funding.

When I visited profs for my MSc programs, they usually took the initiative to tell me about their funding status. My current supervisor handed me a copy of his NSERC grant proposal and said that he recently applied and won this grant. It was also a good way to summarize all his research interests for the next few years! I understand that some profs may not like to talk about it, but most should understand that we need financial stability.

If I had to choose one or the other, I'd rather offend a PI by appearing to be appropriately concerned about money than do science that I love but won't feed my family. I actually asked about funding to POIs during my visits this year and I didn't run into any problems, I phrased the question something like, "Does your group have funding to take on thesis students in the Fall 2012 cohort, and how many do you think you will take on?" I didn't want to choose a school because I really wanted to work with Prof X. but then find out after arriving that Prof X. isn't taking on students right now etc.

[Eigen]

I wouldn't ask the blunt "do you have funding for me" question, as has been mentioned.

But I think it's perfectly appropriate to approach the PI you want to do your first rotation with, and say "Hey, I'm interested in doing my first rotation with you. Do you have space for me for a rotation, and would there be room for me in your lab if things went well?" Or some variant thereof.

Questions about "space in lab" are pretty much all vieled "can you find funding for me" questions, just asked more politely.

[SlickMcFavorite]

Thanks everyone, I asked it like "Are you open/able to take on a new graduate student" and the professor was very forthcoming.

I agree with TakeruK that it is better to risk a PI but know funding status than to go in blind.

[OldDome]

Yeah, I was going to say playing coy little games when it comes to funding isn't the way to go. I say that a someone who does feel uncomfortable talking about money, too!

Asking is the way to go.

If someone is put off take it as a sign they have their head in the clouds too much. If we didn't love science we wouldn't be in grad school. No one goes to get rich! However, our funding is our livelihood, and there's no way around it. We have to be able to eat and have a roof over our heads while advancing the field. After all, would they be willing to keep working on it's behalf if the institution suddenly stopped paying them?

Edited May 8, 2012 by OldDome