MFA in creative nonfiction or PhD in writing and rhetoric?

[KendraA]

Hi all,

I'm applying to grad school for fall 2013, and am having trouble deciding which of my interests to pursue. I am equally excited about the idea of attending an MFA program in creative non-fiction, and a PhD program in writing and rhetoric, because I want to improve my writing, return to an academic environment, and get teaching experience. I know a PhD will lead to more teaching jobs, which is why I would like to ideally pursue both of these degrees at some point. However, I want to make sure that already having an MFA wouldn't for some reason make me less desirable to writ/rhet PhD programs, and visa versa. I can think of no logical reason why these degrees would be mutually exclusive, but I wanted to get the opinion of the grad community.

Thanks!

[Stately Plump]

If I were you, I would apply to rhet/comp PhD programs. You will have more job opportunities at the other end (and not just in academia! There are always jobs for skilled rhetoricians!). Plus, you can still write creative non-fiction while in your rhet/comp program; working the other way around is much tougher. Additionally, the chances of getting funding as a PhD student is greater than as an MFA student.

These are just my thoughts. On the other hand, the MFA would likely only be a year or two. Ultimately, you need to follow your heart (I know, I'm sorry, but it's actually true). Write down the pros and cons of each, and continue to grapple with the issue. I think it will become clear what you really want.

Best of luck!

[KendraA]

Thanks Stately! That's a great point about writing creative nonfiction in a rhea comp program, since the field can be so broad. Have you ever heard of either of these degrees being off-putting to the other programs? For example if I get the MFA, could PhDs be less likely to accept me, or if I got for the PhD first, is it possible I would have a harder time getting into an MFA if I wanted to do that later? I don't see why it would, but I want to consider every facet before I make my decision.

[asleepawake]

the MFA would likely only be a year or two

An MFA is at minimum 2 years. 3 years is very common. A few programs are 4 years.

It's intended as a terminal degree and takes longer than a MA but less time the a PhD.

[ComeBackZinc]

I would just support what Stately said about having more outs on the job market. A small but consistent number of PhDs go straight into industry, and those can be fulfilling careers.

[anti]

@ KendraA,

My advice is to really evaluate how the MFA would benefit you. I have an MFA in fiction and I'm entering a PhD program in the fall. Because of the number of MFA's out there, it is very difficult to land a teaching job with just an MFA now, unless you have an amazing publication record. The degree itself won't get you the job at all. If what you really want is to better your writing and pursue and CNF publishing career, then the MFA is probably the way to go, and like you said you could always pursue a PhD later. But please keep in mind the realistic job outlook of an MFA. It's an artistic degree and there's nothing glamorous about it. Many people finish MFA programs and never write "creatively" or really use those skills again, even if they do land teaching jobs. I would suggest talking to some professors about your writing/researching interest, to see which degree would be a better use of your time and money. Good luck!

[poeteer]

to get a CW tenure-track teaching job in CNF, you'll probably need the MFA + at least one book with a decent (indie or commercial) press + some kind of award history, unless your published book is a really big deal. if you want to teach in an MFA program, I suggest getting the MFA first. if you aren't going that route, and you're fine with not teaching CW courses regularly, then skip the MFA and get the Ph.D in rhet/comp. however, if you have a book project you want to finish -- if your writing and that project are important to you and your happiness, or more important to you than your scholarship -- you might want to first get the MFA anyway, because otherwise you'll likely be putting that project on hold for the five years it takes you to complete your Ph.D.

the main point of getting the MFA is not to qualify you for teaching but to improve your writing (as well as your creative practice and habits). the MFA itself will never get you a CW job, and it has been that way for a long time. the hard-won book publication(s) (and the recognition it gets, as well as the connections it makes you) gets you the job. the pressure is crazy-making. the path to tenure-track-CW-job is unbelievably stressful. so is the path to tenure-track-English-job. but the paths to each are very different.

like anti, I am entering a Ph.D with CW dissertation next year; I am slow and I have not even finished my first book ms. three years post-MFA. after I finish I will need to send it out to contests and presses for lord knows how long, and until I do publish it I am not qualified for a decent academic position. and "qualified" =/= "get the job" since so many people are on the market, and the number is always rising.

but I doubt your having the MFA will make you less desirable to Ph.D programs, especially if the MFA gives you the opportunity to teach comp. don't apply to any place that won't fund you fully.

[anti]

but I doubt your having the MFA will make you less desirable to Ph.D programs, especially if the MFA gives you the opportunity to teach comp. don't apply to any place that won't fund you fully.

Not true. I inquired a couple of years ago about PhD Rhet/Comp programs at three very reputable schools, and none of them looked too kindly upon applicants with MFAs. In fact I had one DGS tell me that "an MFA in Creative Writing is not sufficient preparation for doctoral study in rhetoric/composition."

In the English world, many people, students and faculty alike, look down upon creative writing because it is viewed as "less" academic. If you're like me and you go to schools (BA/MFA) that focus on workshop more than literature seminars, be prepared to have to take a lot of extra coursework to take or be laugh at when it comes time to really delve into English studies.

[KendraA]

@anti, that is what I was worried about... I'm from much more of a writing workshop background as well. Do you think writ/rhet PhD programs might actually be more likely to dismiss your application if you have an MFA, or would they merely not view an MFA as a replacement for an MA in English? I'm ok with being considered as if I just had a BA by PhD programs, even after completing an MFA, because the main reasons I want to do an MFA is 1. open up opportunities to teach creative writing (after getting a PhD- I know an MFA alone is not the ticket)- 2. for fun and to improve my writing (hence only applying to funded programs). I will reconsider whether or not to apply to MFA programs, however, if I think it might make it harder for me to eventually get into a writ/rhet PhD program, which I consider my real career move.

[poeteer]

Not true. I inquired a couple of years ago about PhD Rhet/Comp programs at three very reputable schools, and none of them looked too kindly upon applicants with MFAs. In fact I had one DGS tell me that "an MFA in Creative Writing is not sufficient preparation for doctoral study in rhetoric/composition."

but does that mean it would hurt her chances? not helping =/= hurting. if so, that's weird to me, and actually quite ridiculous, only because (unless they only take students with MA in English degrees) I'm sure they accept students with just a BA in English, as well as students who took two years to work or travel before entering their doctorate. would they reject KendraA for working two years in an office job to pay off her student loans? maybe? I agree with her that an MFA is not preparation for the degree in rhet/comp, but lots of people do activities and seize opportunities that are not direct prep for their Ph.D and it doesn't seem to hurt them. it is sad to me that KendraA would be punished for spending two years partaking of another opportunity before committing herself to the 5+ year Ph.D commitment (and working in a writing-related field, no less, and probably teaching freshman comp), if the rest of her application is sound and demonstrates her commitment and ability to thrive in the field.

an MFA is "less academic," and that is a good thing. I don't take offense to that.

Edited May 3, 2012 by poeteer

[generic31290]

In the English world, many people, students and faculty alike, look down upon creative writing because it is viewed as "less" academic. If you're like me and you go to schools (BA/MFA) that focus on workshop more than literature seminars, be prepared to have to take a lot of extra coursework to take or be laugh at when it comes time to really delve into English studies.

This is almost the exact opposite of what has been my experience. I'm finishing my MFA and starting a PhD in comparative literature at a theory-centric program. Throughout my MFA, whenever I was in seminars, the professors and PhD students were always keen on hearing any insights I had from the point of view of a practicing writer. Of course, I didn't want to be pigeon-holed, so I always made an effort to show I was critically engaged as well. I never had people look down on me; if anything, there was a weird reverence that literature people (including professors) had for the MFAs.

[Stately Plump]

Not true. I inquired a couple of years ago about PhD Rhet/Comp programs at three very reputable schools, and none of them looked too kindly upon applicants with MFAs. In fact I had one DGS tell me that "an MFA in Creative Writing is not sufficient preparation for doctoral study in rhetoric/composition."

I don't think that an MFA would be hurtful to a PhD application. The DGS was being honest when she said that the MFA was "sufficient preparation." One could still have an MFA and be sufficiently prepared. But a creative writing MFA will not prepare you for doctoral study the way a traditional MA would.

To be honest, I don't think either one would be hurtful to the other.

An MFA is at minimum 2 years. 3 years is very common. A few programs are 4 years. It's intended as a terminal degree and takes longer than a MA but less time the a PhD.

You're right, most programs are 2 or 3 years. A few are 4 years. However, some programs, such as Boston University's, can be completed in one calendar year. At BU, students take 4 courses one semester, 2 another, and 2 over the summer.

[KendraA]

Thanks to everyone for all the info. I'm glad I made this post as everyone has been quite helpful. The overall message I'm getting is that an MFA wouldn't necessarily help me get into a PhD writ/rhet program, but it wouldn't hurt me, and that a PhD would make a teaching career more accessible, but that's not to say that I shouldn't do an MFA, or both, if it's something I love.

I guess it's time to apply to both kinds of programs and see where I get in and funded! Maybe my decision will be made for me.

If anyone has any additional thoughts, this is all very interesting and informative.

[anti]

@ Statley and Poeteer,

It may not be "hurtful" to have an MFA, however, in my research of applying for MFA and PhD programs, and talking to several different faculty members at several institutions, it was not "desirable" especially in programs that were more traditional and less interdisciplinary. The fact that we all agree that the MFA is not sufficient prep for a PhD in Rhet/Comp only confirms that an MFA is simply not the best way to go about getting a PhD in Rhet/Comp if that's the final goal.

@KendraA, maybe look into a MA in English with a writing emphasis, something that will allow you to get feedback on your creative work, as well as the ability to take writing/rhetoric coursework. Again, I HIGHLY recommend speaking to some faculty members about your writing and researching interest, so that you can figure out what program is going to help you reach your end goal, especially at the schools you're interested in. They know a lot more about what type of applications they're looking for than anyone else.

[KendraA]

Everyone has been very helpful on here, thanks. In case anyone looks at this forum again, I have another question. Assuming I get an MFA in creative nonfiction, and then apply to a PhD program in writing and rhetoric, does anyone know if I have to take the GRE again? (My scores will at that point be six years old). I don't know if most PhD programs require the GRE if you already have a masters degree of some sort. I assume they do, but I will hold onto any scrap of hope that I might not have to take that horrible test again.

Thanks!

[viracity]

@ Statley and Poeteer,

It may not be "hurtful" to have an MFA, however, in my research of applying for MFA and PhD programs, and talking to several different faculty members at several institutions, it was not "desirable" especially in programs that were more traditional and less interdisciplinary. The fact that we all agree that the MFA is not sufficient prep for a PhD in Rhet/Comp only confirms that an MFA is simply not the best way to go about getting a PhD in Rhet/Comp if that's the final goal.

I'd agree with Anti on this. I applied to PhD programs this past year, having earned a BFA in Creative Writing (granted, it's an undergrad degree, so this might be slightly different). When I visited Rice, where I'm attending this fall, the program director mentioned that they almost passed me over because my previous degree was in creative writing and they were concerned that I would want to lean that way more than the critical program (even though I made sure to express that I wanted to do a traditional English lit doctoral degree multiple times in my application and SoP). So, you may find that some schools assume a background in creative writing means you will want only to do creative work or you will be less likely to do well in a traditional program.

Everyone has been very helpful on here, thanks. In case anyone looks at this forum again, I have another question. Assuming I get an MFA in creative nonfiction, and then apply to a PhD program in writing and rhetoric, does anyone know if I have to take the GRE again? (My scores will at that point be six years old). I don't know if most PhD programs require the GRE if you already have a masters degree of some sort. I assume they do, but I will hold onto any scrap of hope that I might not have to take that horrible test again.

Thanks!

Every PhD program I considered applying to required the GRE; I think you'd be hard-pressed to find one that does not. If your scores are more than five years old, they are no longer considered valid, so you would have to retake the test.