anti

I disagree. The MFA and PhD are NOT given equal weight for creative writing positions. Any "CRW PhD" in the US is still a PhD in English. Most programs require way more literature courses than MFA programs and the comp exams are usually equal to their literature or rhet/comp counterparts, unlike the MFA. If you're look only to be a creative writer, I would not pursue a PhD with a creative dissertation. The PhD is set up for someone who is looking to take on both literature and creative writing equally, not someone who simply wishes for an extension of the MFA. The requirements are so drastically different. Please research the different programs, especially their coursework and requirements for comprehensive exams to make an informed decision.

I definitely feel that I can recover from this course and this grade. It was a great learning experience and a challenge for myself, coming from the MFA and I learned a tremendous amount from this course, even though it was not in my area of interest. I very well could have taken a workshop in place of this seminar, read and commented on workshops and turned in a story and gotten an A that absolutely proved I learned nothing. But I'm so over that, it's not academically challenging nor intellectually stimulating for me anymore. I'm in this program to become well-rounded, because there are so many creative writers who are not. Hopefully, this grade does not slow me down. Thanks for the support!

I am also concerned about this topic. I am in my first semester as a PhD English, creative dissertation student after coming from an MFA. I received a B in a seminar course, which I expected and felt I deserved. As creative writing students, we're never taught how to write a graduate level academic paper (nor many other skills, but that's a different conversation) so this course was the greatest challenge I've ever encountered as a graduate student. I'm concern about receiving a B, but at the same time, I'm not sure what more I can do about it other than use this as a learning experience on how to better my academic writing. I also received this grade from a hard professor, who told another first year PhD (while she was an MA at this school) that her thesis wasn't a thesis because it was "too long". I think many graduate students fail to realize/remember that many ivy league universities curve their students grades, which I know for a fact. Because many of these students thrive on the expectation of always getting A's, many are shocked at the thought that a graduate student might ever receive anything less. But it happens, especially from mid-range state schools where there is no curve involved and the teaching loads are higher. As a creative writing student, I'm forced to deal with the fact that I wasn't prepared by my masters for doctoral level work in the same ways that my lit/rhetcomp peers were, and for me a B is just part of the learning process.

@Waitinginvain I just graduated from an MFA program and it depends on the department. 1st: You may not necessarily be teaching composition, some departments are completely separate from the English department and with "Dramatic Writing" it sounds like your department might be underneath the Theatre dept. 2nd: TAing in an MFA program might be just assisting the professor with their class (ie: grading, participating in the discussion and maybe leading a break out session to two...) BUT it could also mean leading a CRW 200 level class on your own. Most English/CRW TA's lead their own courses, it's not like it is in the sciences where you just help out (which is what Prof. Susan is talking about, this might not apply to your situation). So the department might very well but looking to see if you can handle your own class of undergraduates and the material you are expected to cover. 3rd: I would seek out some of the 2nd or 3rd (if applicable) year students and ask them their experiences, so you will be more prepared, and of course you can always just ask the faculty in the department exactly what your role will be.

I very much agree with this post, and something I haven't seen on this particular forum, is the perspective from someone who may have been in a situation similar to the student. I have, unfortunately!! I had an undergraduate professor turn me down for a letter of recommendation, and he quite plainly said "After reviewing your grades from my class, I remember that I gave you a B. You might want to seek a LOR from someone else who gave you an A". I appreciated his honesty and opinion, and followed his advice. The only reason I asked him is because he was one of the last professors I had class with during undergrad and I felt the class was actually challenging and helpful. But if HE felt that writing me a LOR was not a good decision, he was totally justified in feeling that way. I think a good thing for us all to remember is that anyone who decides to embark on the task of completing a PhD, needs to (and most likely will be) motivated and driven from within. They will not require anyone with discouraging advice to keep them from pursuing the goal of graduate school, if that is truly what they want to do. I agree with juillermercredi that is not unethical to discourage someone, everyone needs to hear the truth about the bleakness of an academic career and life. However, if you really have the passion and are committed running (not walking) this doctoral road, it won't matter if the feedback you receive is positive or negative, it will probably do little to sway you from attempting to accomplish that goal.

@ Statley and Poeteer, It may not be "hurtful" to have an MFA, however, in my research of applying for MFA and PhD programs, and talking to several different faculty members at several institutions, it was not "desirable" especially in programs that were more traditional and less interdisciplinary. The fact that we all agree that the MFA is not sufficient prep for a PhD in Rhet/Comp only confirms that an MFA is simply not the best way to go about getting a PhD in Rhet/Comp if that's the final goal. @KendraA, maybe look into a MA in English with a writing emphasis, something that will allow you to get feedback on your creative work, as well as the ability to take writing/rhetoric coursework. Again, I HIGHLY recommend speaking to some faculty members about your writing and researching interest, so that you can figure out what program is going to help you reach your end goal, especially at the schools you're interested in. They know a lot more about what type of applications they're looking for than anyone else.

Not true. I inquired a couple of years ago about PhD Rhet/Comp programs at three very reputable schools, and none of them looked too kindly upon applicants with MFAs. In fact I had one DGS tell me that "an MFA in Creative Writing is not sufficient preparation for doctoral study in rhetoric/composition." In the English world, many people, students and faculty alike, look down upon creative writing because it is viewed as "less" academic. If you're like me and you go to schools (BA/MFA) that focus on workshop more than literature seminars, be prepared to have to take a lot of extra coursework to take or be laugh at when it comes time to really delve into English studies.

@ KendraA, My advice is to really evaluate how the MFA would benefit you. I have an MFA in fiction and I'm entering a PhD program in the fall. Because of the number of MFA's out there, it is very difficult to land a teaching job with just an MFA now, unless you have an amazing publication record. The degree itself won't get you the job at all. If what you really want is to better your writing and pursue and CNF publishing career, then the MFA is probably the way to go, and like you said you could always pursue a PhD later. But please keep in mind the realistic job outlook of an MFA. It's an artistic degree and there's nothing glamorous about it. Many people finish MFA programs and never write "creatively" or really use those skills again, even if they do land teaching jobs. I would suggest talking to some professors about your writing/researching interest, to see which degree would be a better use of your time and money. Good luck!

@ Tron and Dizzi, Tron, from looking at what your ideal job description is, it doesn't seem that you really want to spend a career conducting research and writing books, but working more on the administrative side of things...which is why I suggested the EdD. Yes it is for practitioners, but it can also be used on the administrative side of education for those who want to work within the educational community. It's a much less rigorous degree than the PhD, which is as we all know, primarily a research degree. And also, many institutions don't have a drastic difference in the coursework of the two except for the research involved, so be mindful of that as well. I don't know if you're planning on going to "Harvard", but just know every school is different. But I do agree with Dizzi a 100%, if you're unsure, Don't Go! until you really feel that pursuing either degree will be beneficial for your career goals.

Tron, It seems to me that you really are more interested in the administrative end of education and therefore an Ed.D might be better for you. Ph.D's in education usually have a teaching background and lean more on the classroom side of things. EdD and EdS are more administrative and with an MPA background the curriculum of those programs will probably be more beneficial to you. Hope that helps!

@Ands- We're not moving to California, but thanks for the tip. @Unlikely Grad & AnthroDork- We definitely wouldn't split up and do long distance as we've been there and done that. I would be more likely to find a job outside of teaching before it would come to that. I'm just mainly concerned that even with a mildly impressive CV, it may still be difficult to get my foot in the door if my department isn't looking to hire. Please anyone else with comments or thoughts, share! I'd love to hear them.

"Just graduateD" (sorry) I’d like to know what others think about trying to locate a teaching position- assistant professor or lecture (tenure-track or not) in one specific city or metro area. I haven’t reached this stage yet, but my partner and I are moving to a major city on the west coast once I have completed my doctorate because his business is there. Because of this, I will be concentrating all of my energy, at roughly four major universities, all within the same state-wide system and a few smaller private colleges. Will this hurt my chances of being able to find a permanent job? I assume this situation comes up a lot for couples who want to move to specific areas because of their spouse’s work or other reasons. Anyone have any experiences?

Thanks!! I'll post there too.

I’d like to know what others think about trying to locate a teaching position- assistant professor or lecture (tenure-track or not) in one specific city or metro area. I haven’t reached this stage yet, but my partner and I are moving to a major city on the west coast once I have completed my doctorate because his business is there. Because of this, I will be concentrating all of my energy, at roughly four major universities, all within the same state-wide system and a few smaller private colleges. Will this hurt my chances of being able to find a permanent job? I assume this situation comes up a lot for couples who want to move to specific areas because of their spouse’s work or other reasons. Anyone have any experiences?

Also, has anyone noticed that Nancy Warren, who used to be the DGS at Florida State is now at TAMU...I thought that was odd...