Should I spend an extra year in undergrad (5th year)

[RadioactiveBanana]

Hi everyone,

I'm a new member, so hopefully this is the right place to post this topic. I've been thinking about spending an extra year to complete my degree plan at my university. I hope to get into a really good applied math phd program, and I've been focused on trying to optimize my chances. I can finish my degree in the 4 years (B.S. in Mathematics), but If I stay an extra year, I will be able to complete a minor in computer science as well as take graduate level math courses. The minor is purely out of love of the subject. I recently completed introductory computer science courses and honestly love the subject enough to take more courses. And I'm sure it helps to have programming experience for math grad (hopefully?)!

The breadth of my math undergrad degree (in 4yrs) will cover:

Calculus I-III and Linear Algebra

ODE and PDE

Algebra & Combinatorics (1 semester course)

Introductory Analysis course

Complex Variables

Advanced Linear Algebra/Matrix Theory (1 semester course)

Abstract Algebra

Advanced Calculus I & II

As for research experience, I originally started my undergraduate as a chemistry major, but I find mathematics to be a true passion of mine so I changed majors. Because of my previous major, I have three semesters of research and a summer research job at my university in physical chemistry (both experimental and computational) which will hopefully yield a co-author on a publication soon. It was not an REU, but it was stipend funded for me. I'm in the honors program at my institution, which requires an honors thesis. Next semester I begin a research course to hopefully find a mentor! I will also have one summer later to hopefully get into an REU/SULI for mathematics students before my senior year.

I feel like my chemistry research experience will not help me in any way for math grad. If I extended my degree plan one extra year, that would leave me another summer to do another REU/SULI. During my last year (if I were to do it) I would be able to take a couple graduate courses each semester and complete a computer science minor.

Some graduate courses I planned on taking would be courses like:

Topology

Complex Analysis

Real Variables and Functional Analysis

(If there are any suggestions, please feel free to add!)

Financially, an extra year is doable since most of my 4 year degree is payed for by a merit scholarship. My concern is since my undergrad institution is not known for mathematics, I need to try much harder to be competitive for top graduate programs in applied math. My GPA right now is 3.9 overall (4.0 math), and I plan on trying to maintain that as best I can. I still have time to decide, so if this would be a waste of time for me, I'd definitely like to know! If there are any other tips for being competitive for math grad, I'd also really like input on that. Sorry for such a long post, and thanks in advance.

[TakeruK]

It doesn't sound like an extra year will for sure help you in grad school applications. But I don't think it can hurt you in any way. Probably the most important thing to do in the extra year is to do research.

Your chemistry research experience WILL help you for math grad school. It won't help as much as math research experience, but research experience is research experience. One of my schools that accepted me told me that they liked the fact that I had research experience in medical physics even though I was an astronomy major and applying to a planetary science program.

Grad courses are nice but I don't know if they are super helpful. I took one in my last year of undergrad (I did 5 years too, but I was in a co-op program that included 16 months of full time research experience) from my honours thesis supervisor and I had the option of taking it as an actual grad course or just auditing. My advisor told me that taking it as a grad course won't really help me unless I do really well (i.e. better than the grad students) so he can mention it in his letter. Otherwise, it's just another course amongst many. You won't be able to count grad courses taken as part of your undergrad degree towards a PhD. But it could help you in preparing yourself for the grad school experience and interactions with grad students could also be helpful.

So really, it all comes down to whether or not you want to spend an extra year or not. It doesn't really sound like you NEED another year for your application but I don't really know you. It wouldn't hurt you but it's not clear how much it will help you directly. So what do you WANT to do?

[RadioactiveBanana]

Hi TakeruK,

Thank you for the reply! What you say makes a lot of sense. I probably should of elaborated, but my main reasoning to the extra year was to have more time to do research specifically for mathematics. I thought graduate courses would help me get acquainted with graduate level work, but I suppose they aren't essential. I'm trying to basically prove myself to math programs. To answer your question: what do I want? I guess if at all possible it would be nice to get into a nice doctoral program after 4 years of undergrad, but I guess I'm just anxious about the application process. I thought graduate courses would put me at an advantage to top tier programs.

I know probably the most important aspect for grad admissions is research, so I'm mainly targeting time for research experience in mathematics. It is good to know that my chemistry research may help though! I will for sure have one more summer before my senior year to do an REU/SULI, if I do an extra year I would use the extra summer to do another. I have looked up that national labs do post baccalaureate programs that allows students to work in labs while preparing for grad school (Los Alamos is one example). Would this be a better option than staying an extra year?

[TakeruK]

I think if you choose to take an extra year, you should be choosing it because you want to do more research not courses, but you could/should probably just take 1-2 graduate courses anyways just to get acquainted with the level of coursework -- but definitely spend the majority of your time on research not more courses. This sounds like what you were thinking anyways, though!

When I asked what do you want, I meant something more short-term! I meant that it doesn't seem like you will need the extra year to strengthen your application. I'm sure the extra year will help, but it comes at the cost of another year (which may not be a big deal since it's just 1 year). So, if you are anxious to leave / want to go to grad school now etc. but feel like you "should" stay another year, then don't do it. If you want to stay and like the idea of the getting more research done, or maybe you have other reasons to stay in the same city for another year, then do it! Same thing for the one-year research appointments at national labs, if you like the idea of doing that, then apply for it! Having a national lab posting might make your application more interesting than an extra year of undergrad research, but I think they would be worth the same in terms of research experience gained. But if you don't feel comfortable starting/applying to grad school right now but also don't want to stay in the same school/place for another year, it could be a good compromise.

Basically, I don't think you are in a position where you have to take an extra year. If you are worried about getting into a school, then maybe it's best to do so for your own peace of mind / confidence. But a year of grad school can be just as helpful for your learning/experience as another year of undergrad. So you can do what you want

[blankslate]

Take your time. There's no need to rush the application to grad school.

Nothing wrong with taking another year, it'll only improve your application and allow your interests to crystallize.

I took an extra semester before applying, not for the same reasons you have, but no regrets on my end as it helped me get into top CS programs.

Good luck.

[R Deckard]

Banana, I was in a very similar situation to yours, and I decided not to take an extra year. I changed majors and completed my math degree in two years, along with quite a few CS and stats classes.

There are several things to consider:

(1) Will you be ready for graduate-level math without taking the extra year?

(2) Will you be able to do significant research and earn three excellent LoRs without taking the extra year?

(3) Can you skip the basic CS courses and take only the important ones without earning a minor (and teach yourself the basic material)?

If you answered yes to these questions, then I generally don't see a lot of benefit in taking the extra year, although it depends on your situation. Doing research and taking graduate classes for an extra year will strengthen your application, and you will potentially be able to get into better schools if you work hard for the extra year. I was able to get into a couple of top 5 programs for my area and several more top 20 programs, but I didn't get into every program that I applied to, particularly the most "mathy" programs.

What area of applied math do you want to study and how high are you aiming?

[RadioactiveBanana]

Thank you all for the responses. I appreciate everyone's advice!

R Deckard, I'm very interested in the applications of differential equations to fields such as physics and engineering. I know that's probably too vague to gauge anything, but I'm still searching for a specific field since I will be doing a thesis for my senior year. I have a pretty solid physics background already with my mathematics major, and even research that I have done in physical chemistry. My honors thesis mentor that I'm looking into is a mathematical physicist in the math department. As for how high I am aiming, well I'd like to apply to a wide range of schools in the top 20 programs. Even top 10 programs if I can dream! Dream schools for me would be the obvious top places for applied math like NYU's Courant, MIT, Caltech. I would be thrilled to go to a program like at the University of Texas at Austin! I also plan on applying to a lot of programs in the top 20 places like Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, RPI, University of Arizona, and University of Washington. I'm still searching and my choices may vary depending on how well I do on the Math GRE.

Right now my focus is trying to keep my mathematics GPA as close to a 4.0 as possible. Since the top programs are reaches even for students that are way more qualified than I could hope to be, I'm trying to do more mathematics-based research to bolster my application, hence the possible extra year. But it shouldn't hurt to try for a top program, right?

[R Deckard]

Courant and MIT are both going to expect you to have an extremely strong math background since their applied math programs are housed in their math departments. Caltech has a very small applied math program, making admission for anybody very difficult.

All the other schools listed should be absolutely doable if you excel in your math studies. MIT, Courant, and Caltech may be within reach as well if you can spin your physical science background as being related to/useful for your proposed applied math research. I would not plan on studying an extra year and focus on doing really well and getting started with applied math research. As you said, make sure to keep your GPA high, but the most important thing will be getting strong letters of recommendation. I really can't stress the importance of letters enough.

[RadioactiveBanana]

Thank you for your advice. It's really making things a lot more clear on what I need to do. For now, I will keep doing what I'm doing grade wise. I'm on real good terms with the department chair (I've taken courses from him and have done very well) and I hope to acquire two more recommendations, one of which is my thesis mentor hopefully! You mentioned the top schools expect an "extremely strong math background." Can you clarify what this means?

Sorry if I am asking too many questions!

[R Deckard]

All of the top math students will apply to MIT, so you will need several (or more) legitimate graduate classes to simply be on par with the other applicants there. It's going to be tough to stand out against the other applicants if your coursework is relatively weak. The same is true of other strong programs that have applied math integrated in the math department. It is also true, to a slightly lesser extent, at some of the more "mathy" applied math programs, such as Brown. For a comparison, I got into several very strong stand-alone applied math (or similar) programs, but the best true math department I got into was ~top 20.

If you're heart is set on MIT or Courant then the extra year of study taking the graduate classes you mentioned will probably help, but still might not be enough to get in. On the other hand, if you would be happy at UT Austin, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Washington, etc, then the extra year probably isn't going to make much of a difference.