GRE Scores for less competitive schools

[Jay14]

I'm sorry for my ignorance if there has been another thread started regarding this topic, but I am new to the site and am just wondering about the GRE's. I have a pretty strong GPA (3.68) and experience as an Research Assistant, Teaching Assistant and have conducted my own research, which won several grants and awards, and was presented at the Easterns. However, I am HORRIBLE at standardized tests, and despite studying endlessly, my GRE scores are on the lower side and I was wondering what my chances would be at a less competitive doctoral program? I know the vast majority of people on this site are looking at top 20-30 schools, but would lower GRE scores completely off-set my chances of being admitted to a less competitive program? Thanks so much for any feedback, I am slightly freaking out haha. Btw, I am looking to apply to Florida State University, University of Iowa, and the University of Colorado at Boulder, just to name a few! Thanks again for any feedback!

[Ladril]

I'm sorry for my ignorance if there has been another thread started regarding this topic, but I am new to the site and am just wondering about the GRE's. I have a pretty strong GPA (3.68) and experience as an Research Assistant, Teaching Assistant and have conducted my own research, which won several grants and awards, and was presented at the Easterns. However, I am HORRIBLE at standardized tests, and despite studying endlessly, my GRE scores are on the lower side and I was wondering what my chances would be at a less competitive doctoral program? I know the vast majority of people on this site are looking at top 20-30 schools, but would lower GRE scores completely off-set my chances of being admitted to a less competitive program? Thanks so much for any feedback, I am slightly freaking out haha. Btw, I am looking to apply to Florida State University, University of Iowa, and the University of Colorado at Boulder, just to name a few! Thanks again for any feedback!

I do not want to discourage you, but Florida State and Iowa are very competitive (don't really know much about Boulder). You haven't really given any details on your GRE scores, but why don't you attempt to adopt some strategies to improve your scores? I don't believe the test should be a stone wall for people wanting to enter college.

[Usmivka]

If you have the cv you describe above, schools will certainly weigh that favorably against the GRE. I don't know whait is like in your field, but in mine I think the GREs are more like a cutoff. You don't have to be great, just good enough to get past the gate. I think this is even more true for a "thinking" degree like sociology as opposed to someone who needs to demonstrate basic math competency.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Usmivka

[Jay14]

I am sorry, I didn't mean to say that Florida State or Iowa are easy to gain admittance to, at all, I just meant that I wasn't applying to top 20 programs like most other people I notice on the board. My GRE scores were 157 on the Verbal and 152 on Quant. Nothing at all impressive about my GRE scores haha. I have studied for months but even in high school, I did horrible on standardized tests. I just really hope my lower GRE scores don't put me out of the running completely.

[cogcul]

I know someone has mentioned before that some universities have a cut-off score for GRE; that this is one of the indicators they use to weed out the applications they don't want to look at: Perhaps someone else can comment on that?

Keeping the possibility of a cut-off score at some schools in mind though, this is my take on applying with a low GRE-score: While those scores are not great, that's usually OK. In fact, those scores are not very different from mine, and I got into a program that are ranked as a top 20 program. While it is great to be good on every part of the application, it's not necessary. As far as I understand, you will need to show that you are great by some other indicator though. Great letters of recommendation might be the most important, and having a great writing sample (like the research you referred to) could also really help you. Your experience as a TA and RA looks good by itself, but if you have done a good job I would imagine the professors you worked for are able to more confidently recommend you for a Ph.D. program. All in all, I wouldn't be too worried, if you think you can raise your GRE-score that might be helpful, but do make sure to polish your writing sample and ask for letters of recommendation (early) from people that know you well and like you.

Edited May 23, 2012 by cogcul

[RefurbedScientist]

I don't think your GRE scores are too bad. I got the equivalent of a 152 on the quant section of the old GRE and was accepted at a school whose median quant score is a 160. My verbal was higher, but it's arguable that the quant score weighs slightly more (especially if you have a solid writing sample and statement of purpose). I did well overall in the admissions process and don't feel that my less-than-stellar GRE was a major drawback.

Given that the rest of you profile seems strong, especially in research experience, I don't think below-average GRE scores will stop you from being competitive at the schools you listed. Your quant score is probably about average for schools in the top 20-30 range. I would recommend spending a lot of time refining your statement of purpose and writing sample in order to demonstrate that you can write at a higher level than your verbal GRE score suggests.

All in all, I think you have a great shot at the programs you named. I would also reiterate the mantra that is common on these boards: research fit will often trump raw numbers. That is, applicants with weaker profiles can be very successful if they target their applications at programs with two or three faculty working in their sub-field. Also, look for schools on the rise. For example, I'm interested in social movements. Although Notre Dame is only ranked 48 on USNWR, it's one of the top 10 places to study social movements. So a student whose raw numbers may keep her out of the "Top 10" will still be very competitive on the job market in the social movements subfield coming out of Notre Dame. Another example that comes to mind would be Brandeis (41st on USNWR) and medical sociology.

Good luck! I think you're in good shape.

Edited May 23, 2012 by SocialGroovements

[RefurbedScientist]

Also, this website collects median* quant GRE scores for sociology programs. However, I have to make a few major caveats. First, you should probably disregard the rankings here. These reflect the NRC rankings, which are not the general rule-of-thumb in sociology (for complex reasons discussed elsewhere on these boards). Second, I'm not sure the median GRE scores are reliable, as some programs websites list different media GREs on their websites than are indicated here. Finally, keep in mind that these are medians. They are not cut-offs. A chunk of people in each incoming cohort fall below (and above) these medians. Like I said, my quant GRE was well below the median at some programs that accepted me.

At the very least, it gives you some hard (if unreliable) numbers to stress over.

*Hmm, actually they say it's the "average" quant GRE score. Grain of salt, and all that.

[NotMyParty]

Also, this website collects median* quant GRE scores for sociology programs.

Not to put a thorn in anyone's plans, but I've been talking to DGS's about admissions rate & applicant stats. My sense is that many of the top 20-30 programs (also where I'm aiming) have become enormously more competitive in the last 2-5 years. This is likely to also be true of programs outside of the top-30 as well. I don't think the listed stats reflect this recent trend. I've talked to a few top programs which had acceptance rates around 30 or 40% just 5 years ago and are down to the single digits today! A lot of programs are reluctant to give out hard data about their average GRE scores, but I think we can assume that there has been some upward pressure on those as well.

That said, I think your GRE scores are really not bad. As others have pointed out, you have many other excellent things to recommend you. You just need to make sure you get your foot in the door so the rest of your application gets a fair shake. One piece of advice I was given is that we should not underestimate the importance of making connections with faculty prior to applying. Sure, most programs say they discourage this. But if you can somehow get your dream professors attention, a positive impression and research fit can really get your foot in the door. As applicants, we tend to focus on how we can convince schools to accept us. Keep in mind that admissions comittees are just as eager to admit applicants who they know have genuine interest, connection, and fit with their program.

First, you should probably disregard the rankings here. These reflect the NRC rankings, which are not the general rule-of-thumb in sociology (for complex reasons discussed elsewhere on these boards).

Sorry to veer a little off-topic here, but I am really curious to hear more about this.

I've done some searching on the boards to try to find previous discussions on this topic, but I can't find anything. I have a pretty dim view of USNWR in general. Mostly my beef is with the well-discussed distortionary pressures of their secretive evaluation methods of undergraduate programs, and what I see as a vastly overblown perception of their universal relevance. In contrast, I perceive the NRC, as a more serious academically-oriented ranking. I guess, on that basis, I assumed they'd have the final say on PhD programs. Though I have to say I am far from an expert on rankings at the graduate school level. What makes the USNWR rankings better for sociology?

Now that I compare the NRC ranking of sociology programs with the USNWR ranking... wow, there's not a lot of agreement. Any literature you can point me to on this matter would be much appreciated.

Edited May 25, 2012 by SocialPoststructuralist

[sciencegirl]

One thing to consider is that rankings are often reflective of the size of programs - that most of the top ranking programs are all medium to large sized programs - where lower ranked programs are often smaller programs (this is somewhat due to the fact that rankings are determined by the publication breadth and records of faculty and larger programs will naturally score more in this area).

Its important to keep in mind because the smaller programs - the ones that are lower ranked - also may only admit 2-3 students a year, maybe 5 at most, as opposed to the larger top 20-30 programs that may admit up to 20-30. So rankings and "chance of admission" can be deceiving, esp when the OP's stats are in my opinion "competitive." (You may get into a few random top 30 programs, and then also get rejected from programs ranked 30-50 if your interests don't match or you SOP is weak).

[Usmivka]

For info on the most recent NRC rankings, here is a good start: http://en.wikipedia....ouncil_rankings. Here is another less solid overview but Sociology specific: http://www.insidehig...ctoral_programs . And here is an academic paper from a mathmetician exploring the flaws in the rankings (really good paper, totally worth a read): http://www.ams.org/p...urvey/mucha.pdf .

As an update to what you find there, the rankings were later determined to be so seriously flawed (missing data, nonsense data, rankings based on who had heard of your program and knew someone in it, grouping programs in an illogical manner) in nearly every field that the team who assembled them put together a press release stating that the process was not valid and universities and students should esssentially ignore the rankings. They rereleased modified rankings in 2011 (found here: http://www.tvworldwi...st=0&live=0), with many schools shifting by >10% relative to peers (ie could go from top 5 to top 50 or vice versa), but these were not widely disseminated and were generally regarded with skepticism based on what a poor job the panel did previously. Many specialists across a broad array of graduate fields subsequently warned that the NRC data should not be taken seriously (see the wiki article above).

If you want a realistic "rank," at this point the only option is comparing publication and post-graduation job rates since the previous good NRC rankings are so out of date.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Usmivka

[calamaria]

Why don't you contact your POI and tell him or her what you wrote here. For me, your story is pretty likely and persuasive enough. If you succeed to persuade your POI, he or she will persuade the Admission Committee to accept you, regardless of GRE.