ETS

[plisar]

I also wanted to say that I don't believe the vast majority of foreign students cheat, but I do think that it happens more often than we would like to think. The numbers don't add up.

Again, 780V, 800Q, 2.5AW doesnt' make sense, but it happens all the time.

[dagger]

I also wanted to say that I don't believe the vast majority of foreign students cheat, but I do think that it happens more often than we would like to think. The numbers don't add up.

Again, 780V, 800Q, 2.5AW doesnt' make sense, but it happens all the time.

Reading is one skill (verbal) while writing is a completely different skill set (AWA). I am not at all surprised by scores like that.

[poiuyt]

Guys - Chill out. You are clearly not communicating well. Neither of you.

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one and invite you to re-examine the exchange of which I ceased to be a participant once comments started to get pulled out of thin air and assigned to me.

I am starting to think the trolling is purposeful.

Again, 780V, 800Q, 2.5AW doesnt' make sense, but it happens all the time.

I've heard of students (even ESL students) memorizing extensive lists of definitions by heart in order to get a high score on the verbal. Unfortunately for those students being able to list 500 words and definitions doesn't in any way help make a cogent argument on the analytical section. That might make sense of the scores you list...

[sugaku]

The situation in China involved students memorizing GRE test questions and posting them on web sites for future test takers. This may seem like unquestionable cheating, however, many students may not view it that way. In fact, in a 2001 academic integrity survey at one university, almost half of those responding (42%) did not consider "asking another student for test questions" to be cheating and 84% of respondents felt that it was not dishonest to purchase notes from a note-taking company. Almost 90% of those asked did not feel it was cheating to purchase notes from another student. [2] In dealing with the GRE situation, therefore, the larger question is how cheating is perceived by students, as well as the institutions themselves, and what can be done to instill in today's students the importance of academic integrity.

Cheating and academic fraud in Asia has been a growing problem as the country has moved towards a market-based economy. Pressures to succeed in this economy have caused many to forge transcripts and letters of recommendation, and even to purchase fake diplomas. The black market for diplomas in China has exploded in recent years

[liszt85]

Selection bias (e.g. Berkson's bias)[1] is a distortion of evidence or data that arises from the way that the data are collected. It is sometimes referred to as the selection effect. The term selection bias most often refers to the distortion of a statistical analysis, due to the method of collecting samples. If the selection bias is not taken into account then any conclusions drawn may be wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

What orangepotato means is that the scores you're describing when you talk about foreign applicants (and, more specifically, people at your institution and in your country) represent a different group of people than the scores that are cited for U.S. applicants, and that while they may be comparable to a degree, they are not directly comparable because of that difference in groups.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. When I talked about the entrance exams vs SAT as criteria for entering Universities here and there respectively, I guess it was the same selection bias I was talking about, about the different conditions that exist here and there, and how that leads to different avg scores on particular portions of the test. So its probably fair not to compare the two groups. That's a point well taken. The GRE is used by universities as an elimination criterion as far as I know. Now even on an objective scale, irrespective of conditions that exist within the two groups, a score of 600 on the quant is just too low for a science or engg major! I just am unable to explain that phenomenon. The 21% who scored between 600 and 690 is what I'd like to look at. A lot of them are probably not from Science streams but my guess is there would be a stark difference in the no. of international sc majors and the no. of home sc majors who'd be in that 21% group. Now, as most of you point out, lets not compare intl students and american students on the basis of GRE scores. Explain to me why more sc majors from the US have low scores on the quant section of the GRE (my sample size is only the scores I've seen posted here, on the phygre forum, etc. I'm not claiming that this is a reliable sample space). I do not know about the averages but I'm sure quite a lot of American students ace the quant. I would think that the Standard Deviation would be much higher in the American case than the Intl one and it is this that I wish to explore.

[liszt85]

I also wanted to say that I don't believe the vast majority of foreign students cheat, but I do think that it happens more often than we would like to think. The numbers don't add up.

Again, 780V, 800Q, 2.5AW doesnt' make sense, but it happens all the time.

:roll: Nice deduction!

[liszt85]

Plisar, plisar, plisar... don't you realize, this is just another example of how much smarter and better international applicants are. You have to be truly gifted to cheat in such elaborate manners.

From one of those sites to which links were so industriously given here by Plisar who claims not to be a jerk:

It is easy to imagine how these actions by the ETS, the GRE Board and the U.S. academic community could affect those test takers from China and other countries who arrived at their scores honestly. It is equally easy to imagine the impact on all students, regardless of nationality, competing for a limited number of slots in top business schools.

One can also see how the scandal in Asia could spread quickly to the U.S. In the past, cheating on the GRE has been a problem in the U.S. [4] , and the involvement of the Internet makes containment an issue. Several sources predict seeing more evidence of cheating as U.S. students discover these Asian-language web sites.

GRE Cheating Causes Arrest Of Ivy Students: Two Columbia students arrested for suspected cheating on exam, http://www.cornelldailysun.com/articles/7201 (Dec. 5, 2002)

People cheating on exams is a totally different issue, one which we were not interested in here, I do not see its relevance here, unless of course this was a troll, which I believe it was. Synthla seems pretty enthusiastic about calling all International students cheaters. If that'll make you happy, so be it.

[zhukora]

Now even on an objective scale, irrespective of conditions that exist within the two groups, a score of 600 on the quant is just too low for a science or engg major! I just am unable to explain that phenomenon. The 21% who scored between 600 and 690 is what I'd like to look at. A lot of them are probably not from Science streams but my guess is there would be a stark difference in the no. of international sc majors and the no. of home sc majors who'd be in that 21% group. Now, as most of you point out, lets not compare intl students and american students on the basis of GRE scores. Explain to me why more sc majors from the US have low scores on the quant section of the GRE (my sample size is only the scores I've seen posted here, on the phygre forum, etc. I'm not claiming that this is a reliable sample space). I do not know about the averages but I'm sure quite a lot of American students ace the quant. I would think that the Standard Deviation would be much higher in the American case than the Intl one and it is this that I wish to explore.

I can't speak broadly about this, but in my own personal experience talking with close friends of mine who were graduates of an engineering college, a lot of them didn't do as well as they had hoped--but not because they didn't know the math, or because they were insufficiently prepared for the test. The problem for them was that the math in the Quant section was stuff they had learned long ago in high school, and they had spent their college years doing multi-v calculus, game theory, and lots of other much more advanced concepts. They ended up being so far removed from the basic math on the GRE that they tended to overthink the questions and confuse themselves. That is not to say that your school doesn't teach advanced mathematical concepts, but perhaps just that the emphasis is different--your school may continue to use or focus on some of the more basic concepts even as you advance to higher levels, and U.S. schools may consider that information extraneous to the needs of an engineering or math major and let that set of concepts atrophy. I am very firmly in the social sciences, so I don't really know; just some possibilities.

[liszt85]

I can't speak broadly about this, but in my own personal experience talking with close friends of mine who were graduates of an engineering college, a lot of them didn't do as well as they had hoped--but not because they didn't know the math, or because they were insufficiently prepared for the test. The problem for them was that the math in the Quant section was stuff they had learned long ago in high school, and they had spent their college years doing multi-v calculus, game theory, and lots of other much more advanced concepts. They ended up being so far removed from the basic math on the GRE that they tended to overthink the questions and confuse themselves. That is not to say that your school doesn't teach advanced mathematical concepts, but perhaps just that the emphasis is different--your school may continue to use or focus on some of the more basic concepts even as you advance to higher levels, and U.S. schools may consider that information extraneous to the needs of an engineering or math major and let that set of concepts atrophy. I am very firmly in the social sciences, so I don't really know; just some possibilities.

I don't think that's a very plausible explanation. We do all of that stuff too. Topology (elective), graph theory (elective), Nonlinear dynamics and fractals (elective), calculus (core), a lot of differential equations (core), complex analysis (core), real analysis (core), discrete math, etc. This is how the math part of the transcript of an undergraduate student in Physics normally looks like here. I do not think its possible to forget how to calculate simple probability or how to calculate areas of simple figures, etc because these analytical skills are basic to being successful in applying higher concepts to real world problems. It is just not possible for somebody who claims to be an expert on all things mathematical but provided they are higher concepts to screw up the quant section on the GRE. I don't understand how that can happen. In fact, you don't need to have done math at all to figure out how many days a person would take to complete a task given that 2 persons working in tandem complete the task in x number of days and given that the other person takes y no of days to complete it on his own! How do you "overthink" such a question? Assume deviations in initial conditions that lead to a fraction of a second difference in the ultimate trajectories that the two people take (due to nonlinearities in the dynamics) and that this difference increases exponentially and that the liapunov exponent would tell you how different the values would be from the expected value that normal human beings would arrive at? :shock:

[slowbro]

Explain to me why more sc majors from the US have low scores on the quant section of the GRE (my sample size is only the scores I've seen posted here, on the phygre forum, etc. I'm not claiming that this is a reliable sample space).

Well, first, those of us who scored quite well on the GREs are unlikely to post about them on a message board because it would seem like pointless bragging. And there's obviously no reason for us to start a topic like "Can I get into [such-and-such program] with a 1580?"

Also, I suspect that international applicants ascribe more importance to GRE scores than American applicants. My professors recommended that I spend all of my effort on my statement of purpose and told me that acing the GRE was a waste of effort; other posters here have reported similar experiences. For various reasons, it seems unlikely that a professor in, say, China would say the same thing to students.

[liszt85]

Well, first, those of us who scored quite well on the GREs are unlikely to post about them on a message board because it would seem like pointless bragging. And there's obviously no reason for us to start a topic like "Can I get into [such-and-such program] with a 1580?"

How about zhukora's post about his/her friends at an Engg College who scored badly on the quant section and the explanations they gave for the poor performance? Also, people post about their GRE scores on their profiles and signatures on these forums. So its not necessarily about bragging.. If you visit the results page of the phygre.com site, you'll see exactly what I mean. People post their results along with all their scores. Princeton, Harvard, MIT acceptances for a guy with a GRE score of 1200 and a Phy GRE score of 650 and a Cornell reject for an international student with a GRE score of 1580, Phy GRE score of 990 (the maximum possible) and 2-3 theoretical publications and rank 1 in the department (which is probably the best in the country). I'm quite clueless as to how this can happen, and that too on a regular basis.

[slowbro]

How about zhukora's post about his/her friends at an Engg College who scored badly on the quant section and the explanations they gave for the poor performance? Also, people post about their GRE scores on their profiles and signatures on these forums. So its not necessarily about bragging.

I can't answer the first part, unfortunately, since I don't know zhukora's friends. As for the second part, while some people do post their scores, it can still feel like bragging if you have a score that's much higher than the majority of the scores people have already posted. An anonymous "What's your GRE score?" poll would likely reveal that more people here have high scores than it seems.

People post their results along with all their scores. Princeton, Harvard, MIT acceptances for a guy with a GRE score of 1200 and a Phy GRE score of 650 and a Cornell reject for an international student with a GRE score of 1580, Phy GRE score of 990 (the maximum possible) and 2-3 theoretical publications and rank 1 in the department (which is probably the best in the country). I'm quite clueless as to how this can happen, and that too on a regular basis.

Three words: statement of purpose.

Here's a link to an archived page offering statement of purpose advice to computer science applicants. The professor mentions that foreign students in particular misinterpret the intent of the statement of purpose. One of my professors, while not in the sciences, has also mentioned that foreign students often say things like "I would be honored to work with you on the research you are doing" rather than describing their own research interests -- a huge mistake.

[liszt85]

Here's a link to an archived page offering statement of purpose advice to computer science applicants. The professor mentions that foreign students in particular misinterpret the intent of the statement of purpose. One of my professors, while not in the sciences, has also mentioned that foreign students often say things like "I would be honored to work with you on the research you are doing" rather than describing their own research interests -- a huge mistake.

I agree that Indian students have a tendency to do this but we did our research and I've read his SOP. There has been no such patronizing in this particular case, but yes, I agree that there exists such a tendency. This stems out of the relationships students have with professors here, its a slave-master/God relationship in a lot of cases. They have full authority over what grade you'd get, regardless of how hard you work. I mean, there are people who top examinations but end up getting poor grades and the professor always has convoluted reasons for assigning those grades "Your attendance was low" (when he had no weightage for attendance in the first place), "You were late by one day to submit that report", etc. There is also no system by which you can protest in such cases. I know of a recent case when a professor read his feedback forms and was angry because of the negative feedback he had received. He summoned the entire class to his office, threatened them with dire consequences, made them write an apology and made them fill out new feedback forms! This class was a sophomore class and this professor was scheduled to teach them courses in the future too. They had no choice but to comply.

[papado]

I can't speak broadly about this, but in my own personal experience talking with close friends of mine who were graduates of an engineering college, a lot of them didn't do as well as they had hoped--but not because they didn't know the math, or because they were insufficiently prepared for the test. The problem for them was that the math in the Quant section was stuff they had learned long ago in high school, and they had spent their college years doing multi-v calculus, game theory, and lots of other much more advanced concepts. They ended up being so far removed from the basic math on the GRE that they tended to overthink the questions and confuse themselves. That is not to say that your school doesn't teach advanced mathematical concepts, but perhaps just that the emphasis is different--your school may continue to use or focus on some of the more basic concepts even as you advance to higher levels, and U.S. schools may consider that information extraneous to the needs of an engineering or math major and let that set of concepts atrophy. I am very firmly in the social sciences, so I don't really know; just some possibilities.

I totally agree with this.

I am now finishing up a 4-year BS in Computer Science (from a Greek university) and waiting on my PhD applications. I scored 750 on the Quantitive GRE test while I could easily ace them at home. The problem is that a science student tends to look at the quantitive questions in an analytical way, understanding the problem and trying to solve it using the methodology through which he has solved countless similar problems before. However, during the quantative test, with an average available time per question of 1.5 minutes, with 30 seconds of that spent reading the actual question (so ending up 1 minute to solve the thing), you can not always have the time to properly solve the problem at hand (especially since most of the time, the parameters are such that an analytical solution without a calculator is not possible in the given timeframe). So you have to figure out the "trick" aspect of the problem, which can lead you to a fast solution. People who "train" just for the GREs focus their efforts around finding these trick aspects, and thats why there are instances of non-science students out performing the science people.

It basically boils down to this: Give a science student 1 + 1/2 hour instead of 45 minutes and he will be able to ace every possible Quant GRE test without breaking a sweat. Do the same thing with a non-science student, and you probably will not get the same result...