How often do faculty move?

[gilbertrollins]

I am shooting at middle aged advisers who are established in their field, thinking these people will be the least likely to move, as against rising AP's. Is that wise? How much movement is there in sociology? It's quite common in economics. All told I'm not putting extreme emphasis on the consideration because it will only become extremely crucial three years from now, and it's difficult to extrapolate any predictive trend that far out.

[Chai_latte]

"Rising AP's". Does that mean assistant profs? I don't know about sociology, but I think it is fair to say middle aged/ tenured profs don't move around as much as younger ones. But, they can (and do) move. One of my friends in bio had 2 research advisers (assoc. profs) to leave in his first 3 years. The first prof went to UCB. The next guy (and my friend) went off to Penn a couple of years later. Interestingly, two full profs left Penn for my school. So, there is movement, but I think in all depts. the order would be: assist>assoc>full. If you're concerned, ask POI's if they plan to stay put. My adviser just moved her lab to my dept., so I didn't have to ask.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Chai_latte

[gilbertrollins]

I had been advised that asking if someone intended to move might be seen as uncouth, and unproductive even if the person didn't think there was something distasteful about it, as a Prof. wouldn't want to broadcast their plans to move publicly while working out details, applying, having talks, etc.

I did mean assistant professors. I'm particularly interested in anyone who can comment on sociology specifically (though I appreciate Chai's comments), because institutional structure, funding, politics, and incentives are so different among disciplines.

[TakeruK]

I don't think there is a good way to ask someone about this directly while in the application process. Assistant profs (i.e. those without tenure) are more likely to move because if they don't feel like they are going to get tenure, they might have a better offer elsewhere that will promise them tenure. Or, maybe their tenure review is coming up and if they aren't promoted, they are often forced to leave. Associate Profs and above already have tenure (usually), so they will only move if they are also given tenure elsewhere.

I don't think it's worth worrying about moving profs at the application stage -- the chances are low that more than one person you're interested in would be moving around. I think asking directly now could offend people and do you more harm than good. What you could do though, is ask it like "Are you planning to take on PhD students from my cohort?" etc. -- if they are in the early stages of planning a move (i.e. have not told their own department yet) you probably won't get a useful reply, but if they are all set to move then they will probably tell you that they aren't going to take students.

I think once you are accepted to schools and are in the process of deciding where to go, then it's a good time to talk about the future. Either during visits or phone/skype calls, you'd want to speak to some potential advisors and find out many things -- whether they are a good match for you, whether they have interesting project ideas, and whether they are going to be around for awhile. I still don't like directly asking if they are going to move or retire but I instead asked them lots of questions about their plans for the future. For example, when visiting, I asked profs if they plan to expand their research group, if they plan to start studying/researching another similar topic, if they plan to start new collaborations, use new techniques etc. etc. I also ask students in the department their opinions about the profs -- often students will know the rumours of who is planning to leave etc.

[Chai_latte]

"asking if someone intended to move might be seen as uncouth" You know what? You're right. Glad I didn't take my own advice when I was applying lol. *silently slinks into the corner*

I'm now co-signing what Takeruk says.

[gilbertrollins]

Thanks all. I'm taking the usual advice to throw a wide net, where I could be happy and finish even if I didn't get along with or get help from someone whom I thought (at this very naive stage) would make my career.

I don't know if this is a reasonable thought, but I'm imagining that advising and mentoring (in social science) will be much more important in year 2 and 3, than 4 and 5. As I understand it the best mentors will sort of throw you in the deep end, all by your lonesome, when you're ready to write -- and let you learn how to swim. The stages leading up to that in getting conversations, encouragement, seminar, etc are probably much more important. And I might be able to substitute *some* of that with external seminars, contact with other faculty, and independent reading if I (God forbid) find myself less taken care of in the program.

Scary stuff!

[rising_star]

Another thing in the social sciences (at least in my experience) is that junior grad students often move with faculty if they want to. When my advisor came to our university, he brought along some grad students from his previous institution that were still in the coursework stage and wanted to move. He just moved to a new university and didn't take anyone with him because all of us are in the research or writing phase of our degrees. (Also, yes, my advisor has now moved twice in the last 6 years and he's a full professor.)

[ohhello]

I did mean assistant professors. I'm particularly interested in anyone who can comment on sociology specifically (though I appreciate Chai's comments), because institutional structure, funding, politics, and incentives are so different among disciplines.

I would have to disagree with those who have said it's rude to ask a POI about their plans 3-4 years down the road - at least in the social sciences. What's rude about thinking about your dissertation committee? About planning your professional career? Faculty want students who have spent at least some time thinking about future academic plans.

Moving/parting with faculty also depends on whether you're applying to a workshop or original research school. I'm not so familiar with the workshop model, but if you're doing your main advisor's work, then it's logical that you might move with your main advisor. Speaking for the original research model, I know of professors who still serve on the dissertation committees of the students they've left behind. But it's also likely that some students are forgotten. This is something you will have to negotiate with your colleagues.

[TakeruK]

I would have to disagree with those who have said it's rude to ask a POI about their plans 3-4 years down the road - at least in the social sciences. What's rude about thinking about your dissertation committee? About planning your professional career? Faculty want students who have spent at least some time thinking about future academic plans.

That is a good point -- I guess I was thinking and writing more from a physical sciences point of view, where we don't decide on our dissertation committee until something like 3rd year. This is because we really need to fully flesh our exactly what our thesis topic will be before we can find out who the experts are. In addition, we often get an "external" member on our committee, so even if a prof moves away, they can still be an external member. I feel like deciding on which school to apply to based on who will be on your dissertation committee is thinking a few steps too far ahead. But maybe that's just a discipline difference and interesting to note!

Finally, maybe this is a difference again in the fields, but I think profs mentor/advise PhD students equally at all stages (except maybe the first year where coursework is dominating our time). In the beginning, they help us learn to research on our own, write scientifically etc. But in the last few years, they help us find jobs and help us make connections with different faculty at places we might want to post-doc at. They help set us up with "talk circuits" and continue to send us to conferences so that people can learn about our work. They also provide advice on the whole tenure-tracked position hunt!

[jacib]

Advising in sociology is certainly not equally at all stages. But it also depends heavily on the person (both the adviser and the advisee). In my first year, I had meetings with my adviser probably 3 or 4 times the whole year. The next year, I had more (and I also had classes with them), but the way I work, as I move forward with my project, I will have to ask them more questions about research design and implimentation, but I think I'll have the most imput from them as I'm writing and struggling through my data. One of my colleagues with the same adviser met with our adviser much more frequently, but they also had more questions for our adviser about how American graduate school works. One colleague immediately started working closely with their adviser on a project from day 1 so met with the adviser all the time (in part, to get methodological stuff); another colleague with the same adviser barely sees that professor, but I'm sure will once they have some findings to work out. I don't think there's a universal rule when your adviser is most important, but I believe my adviser will be more important for the writing part of my work. Many of my colleagues, especially the more qualitative ones, feel the same way--my quantitative colleagues might need more one-on-one methods training early on, however, and may only see their advisers later when they're stuck on something (in which case sometimes just a five minute meeting suffices).

I also probably don't think it's appropriate to ask about a POI's plans until after you're accepted, except to ask what their current research projects are. It might seem a little premature or presumptuous before you're accepted. But that's definitely something I asked once I was admited, when I met with my adviser visiting weekend. Of course, they will give you a positive answer, and the answer my adviser gave me visiting weekend was a little different from the situation when we talked about it again second year (they're not moving, but it had apparently been a possibility); if you have doubts, talk to the graduate students visiting weekend--especially their current advisees. Not that the grad students (or the professors) will necessarily know, sometimes these things happen in unpredictable ways. I know we have had a multi-year senior search in one particular subfield and we just bring in about one person a year for a job talk related to it. The people we bring in aren't necessarily looking for a new job and they're not "on the market", but they might consider a strong offer.

[rising_star]

I want to reiterate a point: the POI likely will not tell you at the application stage that s/he might be leaving. Two examples: when I applied to PhD programs, there was a program where I communicated with two faculty members, determined that our research interests match, applied and then, after some delay got rejected. It was my only rejection and I didn't understand it so I asked my MA advisor, who in turn asked a friend of hers. That friend informed me that *both* of the people I applied to work with were taking other jobs. After the department's internal hiring process was complete and they hired two new faculty in my subfield, they admitted me, encouraged me to talk to these new profs, and decide on their offer. Clearly my rejection was about lack of fit with the remaining faculty more than anything else.

Second example: As previously mentioned, my advisor took a new job last spring. There were a few rumors circulating in our department in December/January, which he officially confirmed in February by telling his current students that he was interviewing for a few jobs. The announcement that he had accepted an offer elsewhere came in mid April, I think after the big April 15 of grad admissions. So, asking before applying wouldn't have yielded any information.

Just some food for thought.

[gilbertrollins]

Cool. I'll focus on finding as many potential advisers as possible in potential departments. Somewhat off-topic, then: I'm applying to do (Removed at Users Request). So far I'm looking at (Removed at Users Request). Any other suggested departments, especially more middle-ranked considering that list is heavy-hit weighted?