Non-traditional background seeking German Studies MA/PhD

[CDC]

Hi all,

 

This is my first post here.

 

I have a BS in chemistry and German and a PharmD, and I want to go back for German Studies. I think I want to teach German as a Foreign Language (DaF), or possibly do freelance translation work on the side. I have not yet applied; I'm still researching schools and all that. I have C1-level German (though no certificate; no money to pay for the test).

 

I'm also interested in Turkish-German integration, belonging, and identity, as well as football culture.

 

My main concern is whether I've got a good enough background to compete with, well, the rest of you newly minted BA German folks who have undergrad theses and whatnot. I live near Chapel Hill, and I'm planning to meet with the grad school admissions counselor to see about making my application sparkle.

 

I'm looking at UNC/Duke and Maryland for US schools, maybe Georgetown and UMass. For German schools, Humboldt, FU-Berlin, Potsdam, and Halle.

 

The thing is, I'm worried German schools won't even talk to me, since I don't have a BA in Germanistik, and I haven't just finished it (that seems to be a Thing there, to go straight from BA to MA, then promovieren if you're lucky). Do I contact the Ausländerberatung email on the websites? Ask them what further courses I need to take to meet their criteria?

 

How likely is it for a non-traditional student who wants to teach to get into a PhD program? (Or an MA program?) I might be able to afford a summer session at Middlebury, which would a) get me back into school mindset and get me a few more credit hours.

 

What questions do I need to be asking departments?

 

Thanks, all.

[dogsplayingpoker]

Dear Decaf,

 

About the German schools (in Germany), you might want to make contact first with a prospective Doktorvater or Doktormutter, because if you do a "traditional" PhD (as opposed to one of the newer cohort programs) you will need an individual supervisor anyway, and that person can provide you with some guidance about administrative procedures. Humboldt and FU-Berlin have a very streamlined process for international applicants, but email culture is very different in the German uni system than in the U.S., so in addition to writing to the Ausländerberatung / Prüfungsamt offices at each school (and be persistent when you do), having some non-anonymous contacts is quite helpful.

 

The American schools you name are very competitive generally, but they all seem open to students with interdisciplinary backgrounds and interests within the various language departments. This is just my opinion, but for "nontraditional" students seeking to enter PhD language programs, the matching of research interests -- amid  yourself, the individual faculty members, and the department(s) [since you might had advisers from more than one] is crucial, so it might be a good idea to be very aware of which faculty you are likely to be able to interest in your research.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

- DPP

[Vincenzo Salvatore]

Well, in Germany you compulsorily need an MA in order to be considered for any kind of PhD Programs / Promotion. You could consider a Germanistik MA maybe in communication of science, or something that you can connect with your scientific background BUT mind that a) you must get a certification to apply for an MA, and often C1 is not enough for an MA in Germanistik, in Germany they offer specific paths for teaching, which are completely different from the literature/academic one, therefore I don't know if you could pursue at all that DAF route you have in mind, c) finally you have to consider that they do not offer any kind of scholarship or funding except for some very particular programs (and almost all universities require high tuitions & fees for international students, and oviously you will have to pay all the costs of living and housing). If you cannot be considered in the US for a direct MA/PhD you could try to start over with a BA in Germanistik in Germany, asking if they could recognize your past credits in order to spare exams and time, after this transitionary BA you could try again in the US. Another possibility is to try an MSc in the UK (or even an MPhil), they cost about 3500/5500 £ but many universities offer at least some kind of financial aid. With such a certificate it would be surely easier to get in a more comprehensive American program (in Germany they are usually very "closed" with regards to non-traditional Germanistik / Sprach-Wissenschaft paths). These are just my two cents.

 

PS I hold Italian BA and MA in Foreign Languages and Literatures (English and German) and during this year I considered many PhD options in Germany... until I realized that Germany would have been only a waste of time (and money) for me, because my main interest is the comprative literature Bereich (which is almost completely vanished in Germany, academically speaking). Eventually, I decided to apply to some American universities.

[citizenoftheworld]

Hi there,

 

In the USA the academic field is definitely more open than other countries,including, the European ones.

Needless to say you will have to assess in what University you would like to apply but if it is not very easy it is not impossible either.

my suggestion pragmatically are:

1) contact professors of University you would like to attend and with whom you share current or future academic interests (turkish-german relation or immigration in germany is already one of them)

2) Start building up a more humanistic academic cv. Try at least to present in conferences writing interesting writing sample.

 

Good luck ;-)

[hotsaranghae]

I'm finishing my MA in German at the University of Georgia (in my last year). My undergrad major was Economics and I only minored in German, but I have studied at a German University in Jena for about 4-5 years (med school though, not Germanistik). So, I guess the admission committee at my university values your German ability more than your credentials. UGA also automatically offers you TAship with acceptance to the program and the department is rather small, but intimate.

Turkish-German culture would fall under Sociolinguistics though, a field that is diminishing rapidly within German departments. Smaller German Departments, especially, don't really have adequate Linguists, so you should definitely ask about the Linguistics track option to the programs that you're applying to.

My program also has a heavy concentration on Literature (we only have one German Linguist), so I ended up having to take extra Linguistics classes on top of my required work load to prepare me for my PhD application.

[Wj2011]

Short note about me: I am a non-traditional applicant, 10+ years removed from my bachelor's.

 

In my experience, Europe is more closed.  A friend of mine did her undergraduate work in France in Classics, then came to the states to do her Masters in French Lit.  Upon returning to France, no Ph.D. program would look at her (unless she could fund herself) due to her atypical course of studies.  Germany may be different, but I would concentrate my efforts stateside where individualism is prized.  Now, onto...

 

 

I want to teach German as a Foreign Language (DaF), or possibly do freelance translation work on the side.

 

The very first question I would ask would be what are the requirements for jobs in these two fields.  You can teach with a Masters Degree, and some programs (like the University of Kentucky) offer a specialized MATWL program - Master of Arts in the Teaching of World Languages.  You can also find Masters programs that qualify you to do translations work.  

 

If a Ph.D. is not required, I would not pursue one unless you just want one.  A Ph.D. prepares you primarily for (1) research and (2) university-level instruction.

 

I wish you the very best of luck, from one non-traditional to another!  The fact that you are changing courses shows considerable courage; and your experiences in the "real world" should hold some value when applying - as long as you apply to the right schools.

[lelia]

I just want to add some things for the German programs. First of all, an MA is the only way for you because you can't get into PhD programs without it here.

 

 You could consider a Germanistik MA maybe in communication of science, or something that you can connect with your scientific background BUT mind that a) you must get a certification to apply for an MA, and often C1 is not enough for an MA in Germanistik, in Germany they offer specific paths for teaching, which are completely different from the literature/academic one, therefore I don't know if you could pursue at all that DAF route you have in mind, c) finally you have to consider that they do not offer any kind of scholarship or funding except for some very particular programs (and almost all universities require high tuitions & fees for international students, and oviously you will have to pay all the costs of living and housing).

 

Deutsch als Fremdsprache usually is a separate subject independent from education programs. For example, at the University of Munich you can get an MA in Deutsch als Fremdsprache, and they also encourage you to apply for DAAD scholarships. I would definitely advise you to get in touch with the departments; they will be able to tell you what you need to know!

 

Vincenzo, I don't know what you have in mind when talking about 'high' tuition and fees; this is just not true. In comparison to American education, Germany is extremely cheap.

 

PS I hold Italian BA and MA in Foreign Languages and Literatures (English and German) and during this year I considered many PhD options in Germany... until I realized that Germany would have been only a waste of time (and money) for me, because my main interest is the comprative literature Bereich (which is almost completely vanished in Germany, academically speaking). Eventually, I decided to apply to some American universities.

 

Well, that's news to me. I am currently finishing my degree in Comparative Literature in Germany, and I feel I should be aware if it had 'almost completely vanished'. Where did you hear that? My impression is quite the opposite: Comparative Literature used to be a lot less popular in Germany than in other countries, but that changed in the last 20 years.

[Vincenzo Salvatore]

I just want to add some things for the German programs. First of all, an MA is the only way for you because you can't get into PhD programs without it here.

 

 

Deutsch als Fremdsprache usually is a separate subject independent from education programs. For example, at the University of Munich you can get an MA in Deutsch als Fremdsprache, and they also encourage you to apply for DAAD scholarships. I would definitely advise you to get in touch with the departments; they will be able to tell you what you need to know!

 

Vincenzo, I don't know what you have in mind when talking about 'high' tuition and fees; this is just not true. In comparison to American education, Germany is extremely cheap.

 

 

Well, that's news to me. I am currently finishing my degree in Comparative Literature in Germany, and I feel I should be aware if it had 'almost completely vanished'. Where did you hear that? My impression is quite the opposite: Comparative Literature used to be a lot less popular in Germany than in other countries, but that changed in the last 20 years.

 

I am sorry, I just realized that I have written it wrong. That "aside" is referred to the following "UK solution", I have simply cut&pasted it in the wrong spot. There is obviously no comparison between Germany and any other country (Italy included) about education costs.

 

About Comp Lit. If I am not wrong, you are studying Vergleichende Literaturen at LMU, which is just one those few universities that still offers such an MA curriculum. I searched a lot, believe me, and found about two or three places for an MA, and almost no PhD Program eminently grounded in the Comp Lit Bereich (as it is in the US, at least). Most of programs are quite general, like the Heidelberg Graduate School for Humanities and Social Science, and the similar ones in Giessen, Bielefeld, Goettingen, Kassel, Frankfurt, Koeln and Leipzig, etc, There are some PhD programs focused only on Literature (like the LMU Prolit, the FSGSoL at Freie Berlin Uni or the WWUM GSPoL), but they imply nonetheless separate paths between the various fields of research. Only the FSGS, then, offers a direct fellowship. About your experience, mine is completely opposite: I know there was an impressive and historical school of German Komparatistik in Germany (grounded in the exalted philological tradition of Humboldt, Schlegel, Curtius, Auerbach, etc.). Indeed, I know a lot of Italian professors of Comparative Literatures who studied Komparatistik in Germany at an incredible level. After the damned Bologna Process this outstanding school has been simply dismantled and absorbed by the various departments, so that now there are still many former professors of comparative literatures but no department! Anyway, since you have the privilege of studying at LMU I would welcome any kind of better "insight" you can give me (even in PM, if you prefer).

 

Plus, as you stated the are two step: first of all, you must be admitted in a program (which is already quite difficult), THEN you can particpate to scholarship calls (DAAD, private Stiftungen or other). So, it is quite difficult to have a delineate program before starting your PhD. Indeed, a lot of friends of mine started PhD in Germany on their own, and only after about a year they suceeded in finding some sort of scholarship. I did not say "it is impossible", what I meant was that it is surely a different "system". And you have always to keep it strongly in mind, otherwise it could be quite painful.

[lelia]

About Comp Lit. If I am not wrong, you are studying Vergleichende Literaturen at LMU, which is just one those few universities that still offers such an MA curriculum. I searched a lot, believe me, and found about two or three places for an MA, and almost no PhD Program eminently grounded in the Comp Lit Bereich (as it is in the US, at least). Most of programs are quite general, like the Heidelberg Graduate School for Humanities and Social Science, and the similar ones in Giessen, Bielefeld, Goettingen, Kassel, Frankfurt, Koeln and Leipzig, etc, There are some PhD programs focused only on Literature (like the LMU Prolit, the FSGSoL at Freie Berlin Uni or the WWUM GSPoL), but they imply nonetheless separate paths between the various fields of research. Only the FSGS, then, offers a direct fellowship. About your experience, mine is completely opposite: I know there was an impressive and historical school of German Komparatistik in Germany (grounded in the exalted philological tradition of Humboldt, Schlegel, Curtius, Auerbach, etc.). Indeed, I know a lot of Italian professors of Comparative Literatures who studied Komparatistik in Germany at an incredible level. After the damned Bologna Process this outstanding school has been simply dismantled and absorbed by the various departments, so that now there are still many former professors of comparative literatures but no department! Anyway, since you have the privilege of studying at LMU I would welcome any kind of better "insight" you can give me (even in PM, if you prefer).

 

Yes, I am studying Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft at LMU. However (and this is important), I am still a Magister candidate (I assume you know the difference as you mentioned Bologna). LMU started the transition from Magister to BA-MA pretty early so they don't still have an MA curriculum but they already have it! The Germanistik department at LMU, for example, started this transition as late as possible, therefore their MA program is still not fully implemented and available. Besides all the rather negative side effects of Bologna, the idea was to make international exchange easier. So with the old degrees it was definitely harder to just join at any point along the road coming in from somewhere else. 

As for PhD programs: I think you have to take into account that the German system is very different here - we don't have (or used to not have) PhD programs as such at all. When you were done with your Magister, you just went to professors with your idea and hoped that someone would supervise you. As far as I know most universities still offer this option (LMU is one of them). At the same time, there are more and more actual programs which are more interdisciplinary. As Comparative Literature is an interdisciplinary area itself I personally don't see a problem with this.

Do you have an example for a department which actually ceased to exist? I am really interested! Since I started college, the department at LMU actually grew (but that could be an exception?).

I feel that, with Bologna, the humanities are losing their boundaries within themselves a little, as e.g. you don't have a minor like Comparative Literature any more but instead 'Sprache, Literatur, Kultur'. It is going to be interesting what will happen to this whole crazy project. It could be a great interdisciplinary outcome or just plain chaos.

 

Plus, as you stated the are two step: first of all, you must be admitted in a program (which is already quite difficult), THEN you can particpate to scholarship calls (DAAD, private Stiftungen or other). So, it is quite difficult to have a delineate program before starting your PhD. Indeed, a lot of friends of mine started PhD in Germany on their own, and only after about a year they suceeded in finding some sort of scholarship. I did not say "it is impossible", what I meant was that it is surely a different "system". And you have always to keep it strongly in mind, otherwise it could be quite painful.

 

Yes, I agree you have to be aware of these problems. It is also getting more and more difficult for German students. As I hear, they sometimes give them same spot to four candidated (meaning only a quarter of the funding for the individual person) so they can produce more doctoral degrees for the same money.

[Vincenzo Salvatore]

Do you have an example for a department which actually ceased to exist? I am really interested! Since I started college, the department at LMU actually grew (but that could be an exception?).

 

Quoting from Wikipedia.de, "Komparatistik: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komparatistik#Institute_f.C3.BCr_Komparatistik_in_Deutschland

 

 

Institute für Komparatistik in Deutschland

In Deutschland sind die meisten Einrichtungen der Komparatistik anderen Instituten angeschlossen, beispielsweise solchen für Germanistik, Romanistik oder Altphilologie. Es gibt folgende eigenständige Institute für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft:^[1]

• Institut für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft an der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität Frankfurt am Main
• Peter-Szondi-Institut an der Freien Universität Berlin
• Institut für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft an der Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz
• Institut für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft an der Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
• Fachgruppe Allgemeine Literaturwissenschaft an der Bergischen Universität Wuppertal

 

 

This is the website of the Deutsche Gesellschaft fuer Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft: http://www.dgavl.de/DGAVL_Portrait.htm

 

And this article commented Spivak's and Eagleton's provocations from a German point of view: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/comparative_critical_studies/v003/3.1lubrich.html

 

Quoting from Note 45:

 

A manual published by the University of Munich lists 31 departments which offer a diploma in comparative literature in Germany, albeit some only as a 'minor'. These are: Augsburg, Bayreuth, Free University Berlin, Technical University Berlin, Bochum, Bonn, Chemnitz-Zwickau, Erfurt, Erlangen-Nürnberg, Essen, Frankfurt am Main, Frankfurt an der Oder, Gießen, Göttingen, Jena, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Konstanz, Leipzig, Mainz, München, Münster, Osnabrück, Paderborn, Potsdam, Rostock, Saarbrücken, Siegen, Stuttgart, Tübingen, Wuppertal. (Der kleine Komparatist [2003], www.komparatistik.uni-muenchen.de/klkomparatist/klkompneu.html#institut.) This situation is undergoing rapid change, however, since many universities are adapting to the new requirements of the recently introduced Bachelor and Master of Arts. German comparative literature is being squeezed by the traditional philologies on the one hand and [End Page 65] more vocational programmes of study on the other which seek to offer students the practical knowledge they need for the working world (e.g., 'Applied Literature'). With German universities no longer educating their students primarily for an academic market, the necessity of a more vocational approach is becoming ever more evident.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Vincenzo Salvatore

[lelia]

Quoting from Wikipedia.de, "Komparatistik: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komparatistik#Institute_f.C3.BCr_Komparatistik_in_Deutschland

 

This is the website of the Deutsche Gesellschaft fuer Allgemeine und Vergleichende Literaturwissenschaft: http://www.dgavl.de/DGAVL_Portrait.htm

 

And this article commented Spivak's and Eagleton's provocations from a German point of view: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/comparative_critical_studies/v003/3.1lubrich.html

 

Quoting from Note 45:

 

Well, I appreciate the effort in assembling the links but it doesn't really answer my question. The Wikipedia acrticle just lists independent CompLit departments. Granted, it isn't many but were there ever more? Being vanished is based on the assumption that there were more at some point. Is this the case?

I am not sure what you wanted to show with the second link but if you go on 'Studiengänge' you will see how many universities offer a master or PhD (20+). Those are quite a bit more than I expected.

Note 45 just claims that a lot of departments are changing without giving any evidence.

 

I am not saying that Germany is the perfect place to study Comparative Literature and you should definitely come here! I just doubt that the statment that the field has almost completely vanished is accurate.

 

Here a quote from Hendrik Birus on that matter: "Die Komparatistik ist in Deutschland etwa gleichzeitig mit der Germanistik entstanden, doch als eigenständiges Fach hat sie sich an den deutschen Universitäten – ganz im Gegensatz zu den USA, Großbritannien oder Frankreich – bis in die jüngste Zeit kaum zu etablieren vermocht. Dass dies zunehmend als Mangel empfunden wurde, lässt die Neuausschreibung einer ganzen Anzahl von Komparatistik-Professuren in den letzten zehn Jahren erkennen." (http://www.komparatistik.uni-muenchen.de/ueber_uns/portrait/index.html)

[CDC]

Thanks for all your replies! I hadn't checked this forum in a while, and suddenly lots of responses!

 

Since I made this post, I've signed up for a distance learning course at the Goethe Institut in teaching DaF, which I hope to get the course materials for in a couple weeks. Assuming they accept my undergrad degree in chem/German as valid... (I have this terror that they won't, because, as most of y'all point out, German standards are *really* strict.) That only requires C1 level

 

I keep changing my mind about whether I want to apply to grad school. Multiple times a day. It's nerve-wracking... I don't *need* a PhD to teach DaF. But it would get me teaching experience, and that's the one thing I can't figure out how to acquire! Language schools want experienced teachers, and a certificate with a practicum is a credential, not experience. So argh. (I can look at local community colleges, but they're not hiring German teachers right now.) Do any of you have suggestions for how to get teaching experience?

 

Ideally, I want to live in Berlin, and I could teach German at a VHS (after I get experience here, see above). If I had a PhD, I could teach a literature class (they offer some) as well as German classes. Honestly, I'd be happy being a tour guide there, because I just want to tell everyone about the cool stuff there. I'm also a writer (SF/F), but that isn't making me any money yet.

 

Other things I've considered include the Middlebury MA in Berlin, but that's extremely expensive, and financial aid is limited. (Also, I have aging cats and a house and a husband...) One option I'm considering is not applying to anything yet, teaching a while, saving some money, and applying to Middlebury once I have fewer cats. (I lost one last summer, quite suddenly, and I wouldn't be able to handle not being able to say goodbye.)

 

There's one professor at my top-choice school who researches Turkish-German studies (mainly literature), as well as queer studies, marginal voices, and that sort of thing. Do you think I could just email her, introduce myself, and ask "so, this is the research area I'm interested in, would that be an appropriate topic?" I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. (I think a thesis on Turkish-German integration in football culture would be fun, and probably quite novel... or homophobia in football culture, quite a hot topic at the moment. At UNC, there's an option to do a cultural studies certificate, which is 5 courses, 4 of your choosing. It's through the comm department.)

 

But a PhD is a LOT of work, a lot of stress, and a lot of time, and while I'd love to be immersed in German stuff again, I don't know that I *need* to. So I can't decide what to do.

[CDC]

Thread resurrection!

 

Since I last posted, I've taken a distance-learning DaF-Unterricht course through the Goethe Institute (I've completed 6 of 8 modules and am working on the exam for the 7th right now) and decided that what I want to do is teach people to speak German. I have a part-time job at a private language school in my area.

 

I want to get the credential, tbh. I'm looking at MA programs, and there's a person in Georgia (new faculty since my original query) who does research in a vein I'm interested in. I'm also looking at Maryland, since they say they also train people who aren't interested in going into academia. A friend of mine has basically convinced me I should apply, but because of the timing (GRE, tracking down LORs, etc), I won't be able to do it this year.

 

I'm also not entirely certain whom I should ask for recommendations! I got my BS in 1998, and my only German prof in college (I went to a small school) has since retired, and I don't know how to get hold of him. I have a professional doctorate in an entirely different field (medical-related), so should I track down one of my profs from back then? They wouldn't be able to speak at all to my German interests, but they could say that I can hack grad-level work (which my GPA would show; I got mostly Bs.)

 

IDK, what do I do?