Is it pointless to apply without an MA?

[sjcras]

I am wondering if it was a mistake for me to apply to PhD programs in Religious Studies without a related MA. I have a 3.9 GPA from a Master's of Education (M.Ed) program and received a 680 V 640 Q on the GREs so I thought I had a chance, but this is seeming more naive to me all the time. For this round of apps it's pretty much a moot point, but given my record I'm wondering if next time I should give up on the PhD idea and just go for the MA. By the way, I'm looking to study something like Sociology of Religion or, more specifically, modern religions in America and their intersection with society and culture (broad I know). Any input is much appreciated!

P.S. - A lack of experience may also have hurt me on my statement of purpose because I doubt I was as articulate (or as savvy to the academic language) as those who have attended MA programs.

[cheapham]

If you don't have concrete academic or practical ("on the ground work" type stuff) experience in the field...then yeah, applying to PhD programs without an MA will be very difficult despite how otherwise qualified and brilliant one might be. And like you said, not knowing the vocabulary of a discipline may become obvious in one's personal statement as well.

Religious Studies as is now tends to expect an MA before PhD. That's not always the case, but you would need at least a Bachelor's in some very relevant discipline to overcome the lack of masters.

So, I would recommend looking into MA programs. There are a lot of excellent ones, and I'm sure you could get many recommendations from the folks here (I have some favs myself).

Sorry for the frustrations, hopefully it has all been a positive learning experience. Best of luck as you go forward, and don't hesitate to ask more questions.

[samsarictraveler]

It really depends on the school and the field. If you're in theology, it seems you really need an MA first. If you do sociology of religion (or comparative, or ancient Judaism\christianity) then it really depends on the program. Yale, Princeton, and Columbia accept people with just a BA in these fields (and Yale, at least, really does. I know three people in religious studies who came with just a BA). Chicago, for instance, does not. Check the programs' websites!

[academiccricket]

Even if you have an M.A., there is no guarantee you'll get in.

I have an M.A. in Jewish Studies, and I've struck out at three programs. I was accepted without funding or tuition remission at CUA, and I applied for Brandeis' Ph.D. in Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, and they admitted me to their Masters program, despite the fact that I have essentially that degree already.

I think you essentially need a 4.0 and a 1500+ GRE, and solid recs, publications/presentations all from undergrad, if you are going to be competitive for top programs straight out from a B.A. (my fiance who got into Harvard's NELC Ph.D. straight from undergrad had all of these these including 3 publications, various conference presentations, 3 languages to make up for his "lack" of having a relevant major...but he is exceptional in many ways )

What matters is to look at who you want to study with at the Ph.D. level, and email them about what you should do in the next two years to be competitive for their program. That being said, don't underestimate the power of good recommendations. I don't mean "nice things people say about you"...but WHERE these things come from in terms of connections (e.g. if your dream adviser has a friend who is the chair of a dept....), these things hold weight. Period. I've seen it happen. So, make sure your M.A. is respectable, ranked, and has connecting power. The end.

[studyordie]

Only thing I would add is that you can always email somebody at the program (usually secretaries will forward it to the right prof.) and ask what Ph.D. programs they have been getting people into in the last five years. This is better than asking if they get people into Ph.D. programs, because they will say yes even if it hasn't happened since the nineties. As a general rule, go as prestigious as you possibly can. Wow, I can't believe I just wrote that, even though it's true. I wish there wasn't so much BS in this field.

[waitingtoexhale]

Only thing I would add is that you can always email somebody at the program (usually secretaries will forward it to the right prof.) and ask what Ph.D. programs they have been getting people into in the last five years. This is better than asking if they get people into Ph.D. programs, because they will say yes even if it hasn't happened since the nineties. As a general rule, go as prestigious as you possibly can. Wow, I can't believe I just wrote that, even though it's true. I wish there wasn't so much BS in this field.

I think studyordie's advice on asking masters programs about doctoral placements is spot on. And going to a prestigious school certainly helps because of the opportunity to work with highly esteemed (and well-connected) faculty, study with motivated peers in a robust (but also very competitive) academic environment, etc. Doctoral ambitions notwithstanding, I really enjoyed and appreciated my masters program in religion. It was a thoroughly challenging and wonderfully engaging learning experience.

From talking to several aspiring doctoral students in other disciplines from the humanities, religious studies isn't the only discipline with a seemingly arbitrary admissions process with remote odds of getting into a top-tier school. I guess the combination of a greater number of qualified applicants and lesser available funding is deadly for all of us in the humanities.

[JMcManaway]

I will be applying to programs next Fall (for Fall of 2010). I've been told that even though I'm double-majoring in Religion and Classics (and will thus have had plenty of Latin and Greek), I'll still need a Masters of some sort to be competitive. If your languages are in order and if you've had plenty of courses in the particular area, I don't think it's a complete lost cause. If you don't have a good grasp on primary and secondary literature (which is still hard to quantify and show to admissions committees), you should probably pursue an MA/MTS/M.Div first.

[sjcras]

I just wanted to say thanks for all of the responses. Not only were they extremely prompt, but they have really helped me gain some perspective. I'm still waiting to hear from two schools (though I can't say I'm optimistic) and if those don't work out, and I choose to apply again in the future, I will definitely be going the MA route. With that said, I would love to hear any suggestions you might have for someone who one day hopes to be accepted to a PhD program that specializes in Sociology of Religion (especially Religion and Society/Culture in N. America) or something close to that. To give you an idea, UCSB was just about the only program I really believed was a close to perfect fit for my interests. I base this statement both on the areas of study offered, as well as the interests and publications of the professors.

[studyordie]

UVA has James Hunter.

[sjcras]

Should I be deterred by the fact that he's in the Sociology department and not Religious Studies? This also confused me when I was looking for programs originally.

[studyordie]

He's listed as a faculty member on the Religious Studies site. Regardless, I'd apply to schools and departments, be they sociology, religious studies or whatever, with faculty members you want to work under. I have applications in with philosophy programs and theology programs. Eventually, if we make it, most of us we will need to "choose" a discipline as defined by the structure of the contemporary academy if we want to find decent work. In the mean time, however, do what you love and try to study under people who love it too.

[waitingtoexhale]

In addition to UCSB and UVA, Boston University (Nancy Ammerman), Duke (Mark Chaves, David Morgan), Emory (Gary Laderman, Barbara Patterson), and the University of Chicago (Martin Riesebrodt) may be also be of interest for work in sociology of religion. Moreover, all of these schools also have strong North American religion type programs, but some probably have more of a focus on historical studies.

[sjcras]

Just had to update you all that apparently it is not pointless, I just received an acceptance from UC - Riverside. So, while it may be pointless if one is attempting admittance to top tier programs, if you are also attempting admittance to new and relatively unknown programs there is indeed a point. The fellowship they offered me was quite generous as well so now I need to figure out what to do. Of course, I still take what you said to heart and my decision will be based on my feelings about the professors and what the program and I might be able to offer each other.

[sjcras]

I also inquired about my rejection from Northwestern and received a much appreciated response that said:

The faculty agreed I was well qualified

GRE and GPA were strong

Writing sample showed considerable promise

Lack of MA in Religion was "not really a factor"

However, there was a "lack of focus and concreteness" in my research plans that made it hard to make a case for me as a match over other applicants.

The letter finished by saying that given a different pool I may well have been chosen and that there is nothing "intrinsically lacking" in my app.

So again, the answer to my question seems to be yes and no. The lack of MA can hurt indirectly if it means you are less knowledgeable/articulate about what you specifically want to research.

[academiccricket]

Congrats on your acceptance! I hope everything works out for you!

[sjcras]

Thanks so much, and best of luck to all of you as well!