Advice on choosing between programs

[Chuck]

La_Di_Da offered some of the best words of wisdom regarding making attendance decisions that I've seen:

 

"pick the program/package that allows you to become your best self and do your best work, that is, within reason of course, for every choice involves some degree of compromise."

 

Simple and to the point!

 

I went through this process last year. I lurk on these boards from time to time, and would like to offer some advice (culled from my own experience, as well as those of peers and colleagues)

 

When it comes to trying to choose between programs, now is the time to do some deep soul-searching about where to find the best fit for you. And 'best fit' absolutely means where you'll be able to do your best work in the next 2-8 years. There are going to be tradeoffs. But the good news is that there is likely not one 'best choice'.

 

Be open, weigh all your options, and absolutely do your due diligence: visit programs, ask difficult questions of faculty and current students. Are these people folks you can see yourself collaborating with, learning from, and spending 60 hours/week with? Are they happy? Do they 'get' your background (academic, cultural, ethnic, social) and research interests? Do you feel comfortable? Do you see yourself being challenged (but not overwhelmed)? I've found that folks are remarkably forthright in answering difficult questions about their department (but only if they're asked!). It's in nobody's interest to lie and then be stuck with an unhappy student or colleague.

 

What about the level of structure to the program? Are you someone who thrives on regularly being held accountable, or do you do your best work when given more freedom? Different faculty advisors will land at different points on this spectrum. There is also a huge variation at the department level in the amount of constraint/freedom accorded to graduate students. These differences are often not made explicit in the recruitment process. To compare programs, be sure to get all the information on required classes, resident credit hours, the structure of qualifying exams, prelim exams, etc. Imagine your first 2 years in each department in question. Is there a round of specific courses required of all students? How many? Are they classes you would be excited to take anyway? If the department is more stringent with the scheduling of their requirements, is this going to put a cramp in your research agenda? Is a more regimented schedule of requirements what you, personally, need to get things done? Conversely, if requirements are very lax, are you going to suffer for not having someone keeping you in line? Especially if you are early in your academic career, new to sociology, or new to research, are you going to feel lost without an armature of requirements? Know yourself. 

 

Differences in department ranking, research focus, availability of potential POIs, and placement of graduates are absolutely important things to consider. Though it's often poo-pooed, don't discount geographic location. You can't do good work if you're not in a place that makes you happy. But don't let stereotypes interfere too much. If your hesitation about a particular location becomes a sticking point- ask current students how they adjusted to living somewhere that is hot/cold/large/small/southern/midwestern/white/far from home/etc...  Incidentally, this advice applies to department size as well. Don't let stereotypes about a program being 'too big' or 'too small' weigh more heavily than the actual culture and opportunities of the department. 

 

Does the department have a hierarchy among students? (dirty secret: even if informally, most do!) Especially if you're being recruited as a top student to a middling program /or are a wait-listed candidate to a top program, you'll want to think about how your position is going to affect your interactions with faculty and peers. The footing you start out on will absolutely affect your initial adjustment to the department. It can be just as difficult to be 'the star' as it is to be the one who just got in by the skin of their teeth. The good news is that, after recruiting season ends, most departments try to foster an environment of equality. After the first couple of years, nobody is going to remember if you were the one who came in on fellowship or were admitted the first week of September. The quality of your work in the department will trump all. Nevertheless, know yourself. Is it hard for you to do quality work in an environment where you feel more academically prepared than your peers? Will you be challenged enough? Did you meet students at visit day who you would be excited to collaborate with? Conversely, is being in an environment with a bunch of superstars for peers (even if they are humble, kind, and helpful, as most sociologists are) going to make you struggle too much? Will it exacerbate your intellectual anxieties? (another dirty secret: everyone has them!)

 

Again, know yourself. 

 

One last thing.... 

If at all possible, and if you're comparing different 'fully-funded' offers, try not to let differences in funding amounts be a primary factor in your decision. In the long run (i.e., over the course of your career), a program that pays a few extra $$ is not going to be worth the potential sacrifice of you doing your best work if it doesn't fit you in other ways. I suppose the exception to this might be if you know at the start that you'll be able to do an absolutely bang-up job on an MA thesis and then take a reasonable gamble to apply again to 'better' PhD programs in 2-3 years. Still. All would hinge on that stellar thesis, and that's a lot to leave to chance. 

 

I hope this advice is helpful to any and all who will struggle with difficult decisions over the next few weeks. Look on the bright side- you are so very fortunate to have this decision to make! In closing, I'll reiterate La_Ti_Da's point that all decisions involve tradeoffs. There is likely no one 'best' program out there for you. Do your best to pick the one where you think you can do your best work. And try not to look back!

 

Best of luck!

-Chuck

Edited February 27, 2013 by Chuck

[1848ce]

Great post and definitely one I will be referring back to between now and 4/15.

 

Can anyone (you included) offer a little more advice when it comes to funding? Right now I'm looking at programs where I could have as little as $350/mo after rent and utilities or as much as $900. I don't want financial concerns to be a deciding factor, but that is a pretty huge difference.

 

On a related note, isn't there some way (rankings?) to comparatively assess student health insurance plans? Obviously I'll take a look at them myself, but it's nice to see feedback from current/former students.

[Willows]

On a related note, isn't there some way (rankings?) to comparatively assess student health insurance plans? Obviously I'll take a look at them myself, but it's nice to see feedback from current/former students.

 

I have actually found the insurance packets online for two schools. It includes a comprehensive pamphlet on what is covered, what your deductible will be, what percentage the insurance pays, and what your maximum out of pocket will be per year.

 

If you have never held your own plan before, you are looking for at least 80-90% coverage and a low deductible (under $500). Out of pocket is usually like a $2,000 or $3,000 cap, but most people don't generally hit that unless they're having expensive procedures done and/or pregnancy - those type of things. Naturally, it is still good to look at that because you never know what could happen. 

Edited February 27, 2013 by Willows

[Darth.Vegan]

One of the really appealing things about Oregon is their health insurance

[FertMigMort]

Great post and definitely one I will be referring back to between now and 4/15.

 

Can anyone (you included) offer a little more advice when it comes to funding? Right now I'm looking at programs where I could have as little as $350/mo after rent and utilities or as much as $900. I don't want financial concerns to be a deciding factor, but that is a pretty huge difference.

 

On a related note, isn't there some way (rankings?) to comparatively assess student health insurance plans? Obviously I'll take a look at them myself, but it's nice to see feedback from current/former students.

Do a cost estimate one month where you see how much food costs you. If $350 covers your food, then that package might work for you. If it doesn't, take that into account.

Grad school can be grueling and there have been long periods of time where I was eating what was convenient even if it was more expensive. I also buy myself "incentives" to help motivate myself. You're the only person that will know how you budget and what you spend things on, but I recommend leaving room in there for something a little extra. A nice dinner once a week or a new CD once a month or whatever.

[dawgle]

Does anyone know what happens to pre-existing loans when one starts a PhD program? I'm thinking it will be pretty hard to pay off loans while I'm living near the poverty line...

[heyitsthatguy]

Does anyone know what happens to pre-existing loans when one starts a PhD program? I'm thinking it will be pretty hard to pay off loans while I'm living near the poverty line...

 

I know you are allowed to defer payments while in school, and a PhD program should qualify. If not, there are a lot of other ways to defer - economic hardship being the principal one I've used while out of school. 

 

On a completely different note, I'm wondering if anyone can offer some insight to the question I might be facing. Save for a chance at being pulled off the waitlist (which I feel I have a shot at), at a high ranked program, my options seem to be limited to a fairly low ranked PhD program and the MA program at my current university, ranked fairly low (50's I think) overall but high (20s) in "productivity."

 

I'm pushing 30 and would rather go straight to the PhD program but here is my question - would it be better for my career down the road to stick with an MA program where I know I'll have lots of faculty support and am confident I can get at least a couple journal publications under my belt, with the hope of getting into a high ranking program afterwards, or just work hard in the lower ranked PhD program and see what I can make of it?

 

Any applicants with MAs wanna take a stab at this?

[socgrad2013]

@heyitsthatguy

 

What are your career aspirations?

 

Edit: Also, what is the funding situation at either school?

Edited February 28, 2013 by socgrad2013

[heathenist]

I know you are allowed to defer payments while in school, and a PhD program should qualify. If not, there are a lot of other ways to defer - economic hardship being the principal one I've used while out of school. 

 

On a completely different note, I'm wondering if anyone can offer some insight to the question I might be facing. Save for a chance at being pulled off the waitlist (which I feel I have a shot at), at a high ranked program, my options seem to be limited to a fairly low ranked PhD program and the MA program at my current university, ranked fairly low (50's I think) overall but high (20s) in "productivity."

 

I'm pushing 30 and would rather go straight to the PhD program but here is my question - would it be better for my career down the road to stick with an MA program where I know I'll have lots of faculty support and am confident I can get at least a couple journal publications under my belt, with the hope of getting into a high ranking program afterwards, or just work hard in the lower ranked PhD program and see what I can make of it?

 

Any applicants with MAs wanna take a stab at this?

A couple of journal publications in the time it takes to get an MA?  From my understanding if you were planning on doing that you'd already need some irons in the fire at this point.  Doesn't it take quite a while to get an article published (even after the research has been done and the paper has been written)?  I'm sure it's possible, but I'd imagine the only way to get 2 articles before finishing a MA would come by the way of 2nd or 2rd writer on a faculty member's article, and even then, the review process takes so long that they might not even be back for R&R before you finish. 

 

However, if you have something you're already working on (senior thesis) that could easily be turned into a publication, then you could probably get one before finishing.  Then offer to help a faculty member on their ongoing research and ask how you can contribute as a 2nd or 3rd writer, and that might put you in good position to at least have something forthcoming.

 

I'm finishing a MA at a PhD granting sociology department right now and I found my time here really rewarding.  I was able to learn a lot and get a clear idea of my research agenda.  I ended up getting into a top 20 university with a fellowship, which would have never happened 2 years ago (frankly I'm pretty surprised it happened at all).  However, I'm only 23 so finishing in a super timely manner wasn't a concern of mine, for me it's worth the extra year or so to split up the MA and PhD if it means getting a degree from a top 20 university versus a university well out of the top 50.

 

I suggest if you go the MA route to do everything you can to build up your CV.  Write papers in seminars that you can submit to conferences (and then go to said conferences), volunteer to help professors with research, serve on committees, write grant proposals, etc.

[heyitsthatguy]

@heyitsthatguy

 

What are your career aspirations?

 

Edit: Also, what is the funding situation at either school?

 

My end goal is a career in research, whether that be at a university or at an independent think tank. The funding for the PhD program is yet to be determined, and that's really not helping the decision process. The MA program is fully funded with a stipend, with the added benefit of living in a home I own free and clear. Again, the downside is adding two years to the whole process...not to mention I don't want to live here anymore (though I'm willing to disregard that in favor of setting myself up for success down the road).

 

 

A couple of journal publications in the time it takes to get an MA?  From my understanding if you were planning on doing that you'd already need some irons in the fire at this point.  Doesn't it take quite a while to get an article published (even after the research has been done and the paper has been written)?  I'm sure it's possible, but I'd imagine the only way to get 2 articles before finishing a MA would come by the way of 2nd or 2rd writer on a faculty member's article, and even then, the review process takes so long that they might not even be back for R&R before you finish. 

 

However, if you have something you're already working on (senior thesis) that could easily be turned into a publication, then you could probably get one before finishing.  Then offer to help a faculty member on their ongoing research and ask how you can contribute as a 2nd or 3rd writer, and that might put you in good position to at least have something forthcoming.

 

I'm finishing a MA at a PhD granting sociology department right now and I found my time here really rewarding.  I was able to learn a lot and get a clear idea of my research agenda.  I ended up getting into a top 20 university with a fellowship, which would have never happened 2 years ago (frankly I'm pretty surprised it happened at all).  However, I'm only 23 so finishing in a super timely manner wasn't a concern of mine, for me it's worth the extra year or so to split up the MA and PhD if it means getting a degree from a top 20 university versus a university well out of the top 50.

 

I suggest if you go the MA route to do everything you can to build up your CV.  Write papers in seminars that you can submit to conferences (and then go to said conferences), volunteer to help professors with research, serve on committees, write grant proposals, etc.

 

Yeah, what you've mentioned is exactly my situation. I have research that could be submitted for publication after some more work/tweaking and am confident if I were in the MA program there would be opportunities to collaborate on projects with my current mentor in the program. Though, you do make a good point, the process of submitting for publication and actually having a peice published is quite long these days. I would have the benefit of having an MA thesis to submit with applications.

 

I appreciate your feedback. Really, it will work out either way, but I don't want to sell myself short by jumping into a decent PhD program now when I could qualify for a better one in two years.

[socgrad2013]

If you want to work at a research university, I think the advice you've gotten already is solid. If you enter the Ph.D. program at the 50th ranked institution, reapply after the master's and don't finish your doctorate there. If you want to work at a think tank, look at the staff rosters of some of the organizations you'd like to work at and see if they hire sociology Ph.D.s from similarly ranked schools (the same advice applies to universities, of course).

 

Two reasons to enter the MA program: you're already funded and you enter with the expectation of leaving after two years (which could mean that the program is already geared towards placing you in a strong Ph.D. program, not to mention you don't have to explain why you're leaving your current program in the next cycle). Plus, if you enter the Ph.D. program, there's a chance that faculty will not be receptive to writing you LORs.

 

As with everything, though, consider fit. If the professors at the MA program don't really care about setting you up to apply to Ph.D. programs then the above points are moot. Correlatively, if living at home for another two years will cause you to gouge out your eyes then it will be subsequently quite difficult to advance in an industry which requires substantial use of them.

[Matt12710]

Two reasons to enter the MA program: you're already funded and you enter with the expectation of leaving after two years (which could mean that the program is already geared towards placing you in a strong Ph.D. program, not to mention you don't have to explain why you're leaving your current program in the next cycle). Plus, if you enter the Ph.D. program, there's a chance that faculty will not be receptive to writing you LORs.

 

Do you think it's better to go to a terminal M.A. program rather than an M.A. program with a doctoral program requiring reapplication due to the possibility that faculty will not be receptive to writing letters of reference for a student they know who wishes to pursue doctoral study elsewhere? Students are forced to pursue doctoral study elsewhere at a terminal program and placement in elite doctoral programs makes the program look good. On the contrary, departments with separate M.A. and Ph.D. programs cannot stand to lose all its M.A. students to other Ph.D. programs.  

[oilandvinegar]

Be open, weigh all your options, and absolutely do your due diligence: visit programs, ask difficult questions of faculty and current students. 

 

Can you give examples of some "difficult questions"?

 

I also have a general question to all: I have one offer that is currently unfunded although I am on a wait-list for funding. I am also wait-listed at another program though I believe that any offer that could eventually come through would include funding.

I feel strongly that I would not choose a program that I wasn't able to visit. I am awfully hesitant to spend my own money to visit programs I cannot attend unless I get funding or get off the wait-list. 

I completely agree that a few thousand dollars would not change how I made my decision, but I simply cannot accept an unfunded offer when I have other funded offers available. 

Anyone in the same boat? What would you recommend? Visit on your own dime?

[socgrad2013]

Do you think it's better to go to a terminal M.A. program rather than an M.A. program with a doctoral program requiring reapplication due to the possibility that faculty will not be receptive to writing letters of reference for a student they know who wishes to pursue doctoral study elsewhere? Students are forced to pursue doctoral study elsewhere at a terminal program and placement in elite doctoral programs makes the program look good. On the contrary, departments with separate M.A. and Ph.D. programs cannot stand to lose all its M.A. students to other Ph.D. programs.  

 

No, I'd imagine an MA program which requires its students to reapply to its doctoral program would anticipate many of them to scatter to other departments (and, reciprocally, to accept Ph.D. students from other places). I wouldn't say there's a hard and fast rule to any of this; you should go to the program that you think will prepare you to enter the best Ph.D. program afterwards (whatever "best" means to you). On this particular issue (whether professors are nice and understanding people) it's probably best to ask current students.

 

Can you give examples of some "difficult questions"?

 

I also have a general question to all: I have one offer that is currently unfunded although I am on a wait-list for funding. I am also wait-listed at another program though I believe that any offer that could eventually come through would include funding.

I feel strongly that I would not choose a program that I wasn't able to visit. I am awfully hesitant to spend my own money to visit programs I cannot attend unless I get funding or get off the wait-list. 

I completely agree that a few thousand dollars would not change how I made my decision, but I simply cannot accept an unfunded offer when I have other funded offers available. 

Anyone in the same boat? What would you recommend? Visit on your own dime?

 

Michigan didn't give you funding? If you have a funded offer from Michigan and are weighing that against unfunded offers from Rutgers and UMass... I'm sorry but I don't think you have a choice 

[oilandvinegar]

Michigan didn't give you funding? If you have a funded offer from Michigan and are weighing that against unfunded offers from Rutgers and UMass... I'm sorry but I don't think you have a choice 

 

I have funded offers from Michigan and UMass. I'm wait-listed for funding at Rutgers. 

[faculty]

Re: MA Programs - I agree with socgrad2013. Faculty want their students to succeed and understand that might mean that they will move elsewhere. We're used to writing letters to students who want to go bigger and better places, even from highly ranked programs. Terminal degree programs generally come in two stripes. One prepares their students to get jobs immediately afterward (e.g., teaching at community colleges, doing applied work) and the other prepares them - and some quite well - for going on to a PhD program. Some are able to do both (e.g., UW-Milwaukee was this way, and now offers a PhD). PhD programs that have students reapply might end up with both types of students and simply want a natural path out early on to dissuade students who aren't as interested, or as capable (for various reasons, including life circumstances or fit), of earning the PhD. Like others who are weighing places based on job placements, If you choose to pursue an MA program, you should do your research on where they've placed those MA students.

 

Re: Visiting - I would not spend money to visit someplace that I was waitlisted. Waitlisted for funding could be a different story, but could also signal a school that is having problems funding their students more generally. I would explore how funding is determined at Rutgers for continuing students. Is there a guaranteed amount for a set number of years after someone gets funding, or is it more precarious than at other schools? You have two funded offers from tremendous programs. I would think of them as your options until you hear otherwise. 

[ohgoodness]

My end goal is a career in research, whether that be at a university or at an independent think tank. The funding for the PhD program is yet to be determined, and that's really not helping the decision process. The MA program is fully funded with a stipend, with the added benefit of living in a home I own free and clear. Again, the downside is adding two years to the whole process...not to mention I don't want to live here anymore (though I'm willing to disregard that in favor of setting myself up for success down the road).

 

Just figured I would chime in here and say that there are several PhD programs that do allow you to fast-track your program if you have an M.A.  This is the option that I got from the school that I will attend and I have an MA in demography.   The "adding two years to the whole process" is understandable as I, myself, am pushing the upper-limits of the 20s but I tend to think of this as an end product as much as a path to greater things.  

[Matt12710]

Just figured I would chime in here and say that there are several PhD programs that do allow you to fast-track your program if you have an M.A.  This is the option that I got from the school that I will attend and I have an MA in demography.   The "adding two years to the whole process" is understandable as I, myself, am pushing the upper-limits of the 20s but I tend to think of this as an end product as much as a path to greater things.  

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "there are several Ph.D. programs that do allow you to fast-track your program if you have an M.A."? Do you mean that some Ph.D. programs are open to accepting transfer credits so students entering with an M.A. do not need the same amount of time to finish as someone entering with just a B.A.? 

 

Some Ph.D. programs seem very open to accepting M.A. credits (or at least approach it on a case-by-case basis) while others make the student start from square one (which, I think, is not ideal, especially if one has to take multiple courses over again). 

[oilandvinegar]

Re: Visiting - I would not spend money to visit someplace that I was waitlisted. Waitlisted for funding could be a different story, but could also signal a school that is having problems funding their students more generally. I would explore how funding is determined at Rutgers for continuing students. Is there a guaranteed amount for a set number of years after someone gets funding, or is it more precarious than at other schools? You have two funded offers from tremendous programs. I would think of them as your options until you hear otherwise. 

 

Thanks! I'm definitely excited about both of the funded offers that I have and hope that visiting will make it clear which is the best fit. I just wasn't sure if the idea of not visiting wait-list offers was ludicrous. 

[heyitsthatguy]

Just figured I would chime in here and say that there are several PhD programs that do allow you to fast-track your program if you have an M.A.  This is the option that I got from the school that I will attend and I have an MA in demography.   The "adding two years to the whole process" is understandable as I, myself, am pushing the upper-limits of the 20s but I tend to think of this as an end product as much as a path to greater things.  

 

Thanks for your input. If you don't mind my asking, is  your focus still demography?  

[magicunicorn]

I wanted to add something too about the funding/classmate cohesion thing..  money almost certainly will matter down the road if you are in a program that doesn't equally fund all of its students.  Some programs (I believe HYP, Stanford, Northwestern, and recently Wisconsin I believe) have a policy to fund all their students equally.  Other programs fund at uneven levels depending on available scholarships/student fit or through how much a school wants you there (ie, how many competing offers did you get from other schools that you could bargain with).  

 

So, you might be in a situation where you happened to get a great 30K funding package at one of the places that doesn't fund equally - but you really should consider how that will affect the dynamic of you and your classmates when others around you are trying to TA/RA/second job it for half that amount.  It's going to make a difference in terms of your relationship with your classmates -- and perhaps this doesn't matter to you.  Though I would add that I think your fellow peers and your relationships/friendships with them are crucial for success (or just even getting through) a doctoral program.

[ohgoodness]

Thanks for your input. If you don't mind my asking, is  your focus still demography?  

 

BA in Human Geography, MA in Demography with focus on life course (early adulthood) and social stratification.  So Sociological demography. 

 

Perhaps we should set-up one of those "profile result" threads that other disciplines have

[soc_guy_2013]

BA in Human Geography, MA in Demography with focus on life course (early adulthood) and social stratification.  So Sociological demography. 

 

Perhaps we should set-up one of those "profile result" threads that other disciplines have

 

Are you planning on working with Daniel Lichter?