Languages

[thisistheyear]

Ok, so thinking some more about apps for next year. I'm wondering: How many PhD acceptees took German and/or French before applying to the programs? Is this a helpful thing to have on the application? I think some programs require you to have it before you matriculate, but I can't think of any that require it upon application.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[mconsul]

an important thing to keep in mind is the overall amount of work you'd have to be doing during those first years of a phd program. so, for instance, if you needed to knock out german and/or french during the first two years (passing translation exams), along with, say, an ancient or other specialty language or two by the time you take your generals, it's conceivable that profs reviewing your app could be concerned about how much work you'd have to do. even when you get to the point of passing the translation exam with a dictionary, your reading pace could be really, really slow, in which case that also prevents an obstacle to your exam and dissertation prep.

not to make it all seem too stressful, but any preparation you can show (or at least claim) in your apps would be for the better (in fact, including some foreign language sources in a writing sample would help as well). program descriptions allow time for you to work on these in the first few years, but you will have a lot of other things to be doing during those first years.

[cavedan]

an important thing to keep in mind is the overall amount of work you'd have to be doing during those first years of a phd program. so, for instance, if you needed to knock out german and/or french during the first two years (passing translation exams), along with, say, an ancient or other specialty language or two by the time you take your generals, it's conceivable that profs reviewing your app could be concerned about how much work you'd have to do. even when you get to the point of passing the translation exam with a dictionary, your reading pace could be really, really slow, in which case that also prevents an obstacle to your exam and dissertation prep.

not to make it all seem too stressful, but any preparation you can show (or at least claim) in your apps would be for the better (in fact, including some foreign language sources in a writing sample would help as well). program descriptions allow time for you to work on these in the first few years, but you will have a lot of other things to be doing during those first years.

i second all of this. for my part, i had taken neither french nor german by the time i finished my masters, for reasons that seem foolish now. the next fall, when i was speaking with a professor at yale about my ph.d. applications, he singled this out as a glaring weakness (both for my applications, and for my career), and recommended that i find some way to get one or the other on my transcript before i applied - noting, as well, that i shouldn't simply say "i plan to self-study French/German before matriculating" because everyone says this who doesn't have the languages. so, i took his advice and began studying at a nearby Goethe Institut - less than ideal, of course, but i was overseas at the time so it was the best i could do. in the spring, when i was lucky enough to get an acceptance, this same professor sent me an email ending with "p.s. thanks for learning German." the point of all this being, yes they do notice these things, and give weight to them.

oh, and yes it is possible to get accepted with only one of the two, but i wouldn't recommend it. now if you'll excuse me, i have a date with french...

[username4321]

i have noticed that spanish is also included on most lists along with german and french. does it hold as much weight? will having lived in mexico for a year and having a decent grasp on the language help my case?

you mentioned you didnt take languages in your masters program for what now seems like foolish reasons. i am heading into my MTS this fall, what would be your suggestions for someone like me in a MTS program that doesnt require a language but i plan on going for a phd?

and lastly (sorry i am new to all of this), you mentioned you finshed your masters then the next fall were talking to yale. do most people finish their masters then take the next year to apply (while working?)? or do they apply at the beginning of their second year? thanks for any help!

[mconsul]

i know you were directing your questions more to 'cavedan', but i will try to help.

during your MTS, even if a language is not required, you are well-advised to work on one, whether formally as one of your classes or perhaps auditing, if available. a lot of programs have courses geared towards passing reading/translating exams. as to which language you'd study (french, german, spanish), you should knock out whichever will be most important, and one of those most likely to be a phd requirement (probably french and german). unless you think another (e.g., spanish) will be more helpful for the kind of work you want to do in preparation for that phd program, in which case that could be a good idea. but having spanish won't really help unless it will be relevant for your field (whereas other languages, such as italian, would be helpful if you were studying, say, ancient history/classics).

but remember that while the language prep is important, your overall application, including recommendations, writing sample, GRE scores, etc., is what really matters. i had 'high pass' translation exams for french and greek when i first applied for a phd program and got nothing (0/5), and then had french, latin, and greek (the phd-level exam), along with some self-study german, when i applied the following year and only got 1/4 (which i couldn't accept since my wife didn't get med school in the same area--thus the reason i'm still spending time on these boards...).

so languages aren't the key to a strong application, but they certainly help--or better, not having them may detract from your otherwise strong application.

[studyordie]

I'm definitely guilty of the "I will learn French before the school year starts next fall" move on my CV so thanks for the heads up and I'll get that off. But is there a standardized test I can take if I really do learn the language myself? I've heard of the Toronto exam for Latin, do these things exist for French and German? This would save me from paying for something I could do myself, at least with French, I probably will need a classroom for German.

[mconsul]

i took all of mine in my program. if you don't have that option, you could try to find someone who can attest to your ability, such as a prof or doctoral student or someone. they could write an informal letter saying they have evaluated your translation ability to some extent. perhaps easier would be implementing a source in that language into your writing sample, as proof of your ability to read and understand that language. it would coincide with your statement that you have worked on the language and are at such and such a level.

[waitingtoexhale]

I'm definitely guilty of the "I will learn French before the school year starts next fall" move on my CV so thanks for the heads up and I'll get that off. But is there a standardized test I can take if I really do learn the language myself? I've heard of the Toronto exam for Latin, do these things exist for French and German? This would save me from paying for something I could do myself, at least with French, I probably will need a classroom for German.

I just want to affirm what others have been saying about the benefit of studying French and/or German before applying to doctoral programs. Several schools expect either French or German upon matriculation of your first year, with a translation exam during the first few weeks in the fall. I didn't take courses for either language, but self-studied using fairly common grammar books geared toward reading comprehension for graduate students (Sandberg's French for Reading and Jannach's German for Reading Knowledge). Instead of noting that I will learn the langauges before matriculation, I wrote that I had a good grasp of them for reading and was able to translate for reading comprehension and research purposes (which I guess also implied that I would be able to pass a translation exam). Self-study is possible, au moins pour moi, but it does take a considerable chunk of time and patience.

[thisistheyear]

I just want to affirm what others have been saying about the benefit of studying French and/or German before applying to doctoral programs. Several schools expect either French or German upon matriculation of your first year, with a translation exam during the first few weeks in the fall. I didn't take courses for either language, but self-studied using fairly common grammar books geared toward reading comprehension for graduate students (Sandberg's French for Reading and Jannach's German for Reading Knowledge). Instead of noting that I will learn the langauges before matriculation, I wrote that I had a good grasp of them for reading and was able to translate for reading comprehension and research purposes (which I guess also implied that I would be able to pass a translation exam). Self-study is possible, au moins pour moi, but it does take a considerable chunk of time and patience.

this is tremendously helpful! i'm planning on taking french and german at a nearby state university next fall - just the first level...hoping that'll be a good jumpstart, and then have it on my transcripts. i think the self-study will be my way to go though in the spring. thanks for the recs on texts, i'll definitely look them up.

[mfm]

Keep in mind that the you need the language for reading. Most university language courses are geared towards fluency in speaking and hearing as well. I have 2 years of French and 2 years of Spanish, but am not fluent by any means in either one and probably could not pass a translation exam at this point. I am about a 1/3 of the way through Sandberg's French for Reading and have found it very helpful. I have also recently started doing my daily scripture reading in French, which is helping as well. I also have access to a retired French professor if I really get stuck.

If you feel a classroom is the best format for you, many universities have summer language prep courses for incoming PhD students - geared towards the reading and research skills necessary for doctoral work. I would look for one of these classes - the ones I have seen run $600-800, which is generally less than a 3 hour credit course and you would get a lot more out of it.

[sonofcioran]

Not my field at all, but I dabble every now and again in some related research areas. Those books - the Sandberg and Jannach have just been added to my wish list. Thanks!

I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but while we're on the subject of languages, does anyone have any suggestions for gaining a reading knowledge of Medieval Latin or Church Slavonic? I have a reading knowledge of Russian and superficial knowledge of Ancient Latin.

Figured one of you folks might know. Both languages are more or less firmly in theological territory.

[studyordie]

I think Henry Nunn's Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin is the standard text on the subject, although it is out of print. There are probably others out now but it's the one you see referenced most often.

[sonofcioran]

I think Henry Nunn's Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin is the standard text on the subject, although it is out of print. There are probably others out now but it's the one you see referenced most often.

Thanks so much! I just inter-library loan requested it now (my U didn't have a copy).