In need of some advice

[sg_87]

Hello all!

 

I just randomly came across this site in my GRE searches, so I figured I'd join in.

 

Right now I am a high school biology teacher at a very disadvantaged school (read: really bad place to work). I moved three states away for this job, and now I'm realizing that it's not what I want at all. So, I decided to go for grad school. I'm taking the biology GRE in three weeks (yikes!) and the general GRE in May.

 

I really thought that I wanted to teach. I am nearly 3 years out of college. Right now, I am getting my masters in education. I had an experience last semester where I was a GA for undergrad biology classes. I. LOVED. IT. It was so hard to leave, and now I'm realizing that leaving it was probably the worse decision I have ever made. I'm at a job I don't like, three states away from home, and even worse, I left a really awesome opportunity.

 

Now, here's my dilemma. Since I was going into education, I never did research in my undergrad. Student teaching was considered our research graduation requirement. The only reference I have is the professor I was a GA for. I'm not entirely sure that she would feel comfortable writing me a letter, though. Since it has been three years since I graduated, I am really not confident about either GRE.

 

Tell me truthfully - what chances do I have? The only thing I've got going for me right now is my undergrad GPA (3.8). I don't need to get into Ivy League, but I do want to get into a good school where I'll have a decent shot at becoming more than a high school teacher. (Maybe a university professor instead?) Any advice would be appreciated.

 

 

Please don't tell me "Oh you're in grad school for education. It'll be a piece of cake!" They are two completely different ball games. You can't compare football and tennis. Don't compare education grad school and biology grad school.

[zabius]

Becoming a university professor is difficult... the job market in academia is terrible now, and there just aren't very many openings for professor jobs. To get one, you'll need not just a PhD, but almost certainly at least one postdoc position as well. Are you sure that's what you want to do? I only ask because you said "maybe a university professor?" It's a great goal to have, but it'll take a lot of dedication, so you should be sure that your heart is really in it before you invest so much time and energy (and money) in it. There's also a big difference between a professor position at a liberal arts college (which typically has a heavy teaching component to it) and a professor position at a large research university (which typically has a larger research component to it, obviously). The latter is what I'm going for, and so I know more about it. At a research university, a lot of your time as a professor would be spent writing grant proposals and other not-so-fun stuff... which is something to consider. I know a lot of people who only realized that several years into their PhDs, and many of them left their programs after deciding that they didn't want to do that. Anyway, I'm not trying to discourage you or anything... I'm just saying that you should think long and hard about the specific type of career that you want first, because that will determine which schools you apply to. There are many other things that you can do with a graduate degree in biology if you decide that a professor job is not what you want. Have you ever considered an adjunct lecturer position? Since you enjoyed your GA position last semester, I'm guessing that you enjoy teaching at the undergrad level more than you enjoy teaching at the high school level. There are adjunct positions at both community colleges and four-year institutions, and many of them require only an MS in the field that you would be teaching in. I don't have a sense of how good the pay is, but it probably varies a lot based on the area and quality of the school.

 

Anyway, if you want to get into a graduate program that is research-based (as opposed to education-based), it would be really beneficial for you to have some research experience under your belt. Grad school admissions are just so competitive these days, and students who have already done research (even if it was just for a summer as an undergrad) probably look much more attractive to an admissions committee. That said, a lack of research experience is not an instant "app killer." Here's what you can do if you want to become a university professor:

 

First, you'll almost definitely need to do a second master's program (one that is research-based and that has a written thesis requirement). Many PhD programs will be very reluctant to consider an applicant who has no experience in independent research, but master's programs are usually a tad more forgiving when it comes to previous research experience. Cast a wide net and apply to as many master's programs as you can. I recommend this because your lack of research experience will unfortunately put you at a bit of a disadvantage and so applying to numerous programs will increase the chances that you'll be accepted to one.

 

That said, it is a disadvantage and not a roadblock. To counteract it, make the other aspects of your application strong. Study hard for the GREs and try to get as high of a score as you can, retaking the test if you don't do so well the first time. Normally, I advise against taking the subject GREs because they're kind of useless (one's academic transcript should be sufficient to establish proficiency in the field of interest). However, if your undergrad coursework was more education-heavy than biology-heavy, then I think it would serve you well to take the biology subject GRE. Make sure to get strong letters of recommendation too. You'll likely need three; the person that you GAed under is a great option... she might not be willing to write it (and you should be understanding if she declines), but it's definitely worth asking her for a letter. Try reaching out to several professors from your undergrad or master's program too, or perhaps even a professional reference from the high school where you are working now. You want to choose letter writers who know you well as a person (not just a number in a gradebook), and who can speak to your strengths (hard worker, enthusiastic, pays good attention to detail, etc.). It's usually best to choose people with whom you have done research in the past, but that's not an option for you. So, instead try to choose people who can show that you have the same general skills that any good researcher should have (dedication, time management skills, work ethic, et cetera)... basically, you want to show the schools you apply to that you have what it takes to do research, even though that you haven't done any in the past.

 

The statement of purpose is another area to really focus on in your application. Use it to describe why you've decided to leave the field of education and pursue a more research-oriented career. What you really want to do here is show the admissions committee that you are not only seriously committed to this new path that you're embarking on, but also that you are genuinely passionate about the particular field of biology that you want to do research in. That said, do you know which field you want to go into? I'd advise figuring that out first before you apply. Are you a neuroscience person? A molecular biology person? Or perhaps an evolutionary biology or ecology person? You'll have much more success in your applications if your SOP is more focused. In fact, academic fit is probably the most important thing here... admissions committees will likely reject an otherwise impressive application (good GPA/GRE, good letters, etc.) if the fit between the student's research interests and the research interests of the faculty at the school just don't match. Thus, it's really important to (1) determine what your research interests are, (2) apply to programs that have faculty who do research in that area, and (3) convey your genuine interest in this area of study in your SOP. It also wouldn't hurt to contact potential advisors before you start your application to discuss your goals/interests and the possibility of working with them. In fact, I'd recommend doing this even if it's not required by the program for you to have an official application sponsor.

 

If, however, you don't yet know which field of biology interests you, I'd suggest taking a few graduate level courses as a non-matriculated student before you apply. You can probably do this at your local university, though I don't know exactly how to go about it.

 

Anyway, all of that will help make you more competitive for MS programs. You GPA is already very good. You just need to make sure that the other aspects of your application are also as great as they can be so that they counteract the lack of research experience. :-) Then, once you finish the MS, you could either go on to get a PhD or enter the workforce. There are a number of careers that would be available to you with just an MS.

 

If your undergrad degree is in biology, you could also apply for biology internships before you apply to grad schools. I don't know if there are many available for this summer (deadlines may have passed on many of them?), but there should still be some, as well as internship opportunities for the fall semester. These could give you a little research experience that would look good on your CV and boost your chances of getting into a good program.

 

I hope this was helpful! I think that you have a shot and should totally go for it if this is what you really want to do. The lack of research experience may be a disadvantage, but it's not one that would be impossible to overcome. It's also probably a little field-dependent. There are fewer specialized lab techniques in a field like animal behavior than there are in fields like microbiology and neuroscience. It may be harder to get into a lab that focuses in one of the latter two fields than it would be to get into a behavior lab. But, don't assume that anything is impossible.

 

Good luck!

[BeakerBreaker]

I would actually argue against doing a second master's.  While it may be easier to get into a master's, you will have to pay and you will still have to take classes in your first year.

 

If you want research experience, try to find a technician job (preferably a short term, 6 months - 1 year job) in biology, preferably at an academic university (i.e. research institution).  This will give you research experience, at least one more solid LoR, and some money.

 

Go ahead and take the GRE.  Keep in mind that most (90%+) schools don't require the subject test, but if you do well it will be an asset on your application.  The general GRE tests very vague, broad skills that should't diminish the further out from undergrad you are.  I did well on my general test after being out of college for 5 years.

 

Also, without research experience, you don't really know if you're going to hate or love being in the lab.  Even if you want to be an adjunct professor, or tenured university professor, it will require years of work that many people dislike.  Make sure to pursue an opportunity that will give you full time lab work, both for your resume and for your own perspective.

[zabius]

I would actually argue against doing a second master's.  While it may be easier to get into a master's, you will have to pay and you will still have to take classes in your first year.

 

If you want research experience, try to find a technician job (preferably a short term, 6 months - 1 year job) in biology, preferably at an academic university (i.e. research institution).  This will give you research experience, at least one more solid LoR, and some money.

 

There are definitely pros and cons to doing a master's, but I do want to point out that there are funded master's programs out there (even if there are many--perhaps more-- unfunded ones). When I did my MS, I was guaranteed funding for two years (via a TAship), and several of the universities I applied to for my PhD also offer fully funded master's programs. The required classes can be a pain, but you'd likely also have to take classes as a first year PhD student if you go into it without a master's. With the MS, though, you could place out of many of those PhD classes. At least, this has been the case for the programs that I have applied to.

 

I think for someone who does not have a strong background in biological research, and MS would be very beneficial, both as a more gradual intro to independent research and as a a way to make him/herself a more attractive applicant for PhD programs.

 

The tech job is a great idea. The OP may have trouble securing one if s/he hasn't have any previous research experience, however. Many tech positions require familiarity with basic lab techniques, or at least strongly recommend it (as PIs would most likely prefer to avoid spending time on basic training if they can get away with it). But this isn't always the case, so this may be something that you want to look into, sg_87. If you can find a tech position that doesn't list a mandatory "1-2 years relevant experience" requirement, then that could be really good for you! As BeakerBreaker said, it could provide with both experience and a good LOR. I'd definitely give it a shot. :-)

[cancergrad]

Truthfully, I think you would get pummeled in PhD interviews. They will ask you about your research, when you say you have none, they will ask how do you know you even want to do/like this for the next 5-6 years. I would skip a masters they are mostly cash cows for universities. Get a lab tech job so you can get paid and get on a paper or two, then next year apply to PhD programs.   Like said previously only 10-15% of Phds actually land academic positions. That's 10 years of work for minimal chance to get what you want.

 

Have you talked to any community college adjunct faculty? I would think you could find another way to teach college Bio without having to do a decade of research. 

[sg_87]

Thanks for the info everyone!

 

I really don't have the option to switch jobs right now. Unfortunately I am stuck in NC, with my closest family being 10 hours away in PA. So to be able to support myself I have to keep my current job. All of the tech jobs I have looked at pay less than what I'm making now (which is a very sad salary to begin with).

 

I think that I would like teaching at smaller universities. I don't mind teaching, really. I just hate teaching where I am at now. The secondary education job market is about the same as post secondary education. The only reason I got the job I have now is because it's at an alternative school for really bad kids (no one wants to work there!). From experiences of friends, I have found that once you start working for alternative schools, that's all that will hire you. The big fancy schools look down on you because you worked in public education. If I want to get a job somewhere better, I either have to pray for a miracle or do something to advance myself beyond that (or both). And if I ever have dreams of returning to PA, I know people who have years of experience and 3 masters degrees and still didn't get hired. I have to do something. Just accepting where I am and waiting it out is not working.

 

Allow me to clarify my original post - I am looking for a masters program. PhD would be nice, and it would certainly be nice to save two years, but I don't think I have a chance at them. I'm going to apply to big universities, but I know I probably won't make it. My education masters degree (2014) might be all that it takes to get me to where I want to go. I know that community colleges aren't that picky about who they hire. But, if not... I really don't want to wait around another year, just to find out that the education masters is not enough. I think I should apply for some programs, hope that I get some letters back, and maybe move on to get my masters. Thoughts?

 

I feel like all of my energy and brain matter are being sapped out of me at this job. I do no like teaching 8 hours a day. I really don't like teaching high school kids that I have to treat like kindergarteners, because if I have a negative attitude they'll drop out. I mean, really? I am not a psychologist. I signed up to teach. It seems like the only place I can do that is at a university, or at least at a very specialized high school. And to do that... I need at least an MS.

 

To answer some of the questions you asked:

- I am not sure what I would want to study yet. I like everything. I know that I don't want biochemistry, because it bores me to tears. I'm leaning toward ecology. I do not have the money to do any other classes, and I certainly don't have the money to do unpaid internships. I am quite literally stuck where I am.

- I am taking the biology GRE just as insurance. I figured it couldn't hurt, especially since I have no real lab experience. I'm not too worried about it.

- I am going to ask my previous professors for reccomendations. Even though I have no real world research experience, the university I went to let the undergrads do a lot of research like work. I know how to use machines and computer programs that most undergrads aren't even allowed in the lab with. I'm hoping that my university professors will at least attest to that.

 

Sorry for the long post! Thanks again for your help!

[backtoschool13]

Wow, sg_87 I feel like I am in the exact situation as you! As an undergrad I majored in ecology & evolutionary biology and secondary math education. I am finishing my two years as a TFA middle school math teacher. I realized pretty quickly that teaching is just not for me and made it a goal to stick through it for two years.

 

I decided to apply for MS programs in ecology, but faced the same challenge of not having research experience from undergrad. I have a really good undergrad GPA and decent GRE scores. I obviously knew grad school acceptance would be a very competitive process, but was hopeful that I could get into a program with all or almost all funding guaranteed. Sadly this has not been the case . I have gotten into 2 out of 6 programs with minimal funding (with hopefully more past the first semester) and the other will not award me a TAship but there is a potential for a research stipend (although I do not feel this program is prestigious in the field of ecology). I have had some feedback from professors I contacted through the application process about the lack of research experience being a weakness although the rest of my application was very strong.

 

I think someone suggested trying to get a lab tech position or some science related job (outside of education) for a year and wait to apply. It probably doesn't sound fun to put off grad school, but as someone in a similar situation it does seem like it could be very helpful to you in the long run.

 

Good luck finishing out the school year!!

[zabius]

Allow me to clarify my original post - I am looking for a masters program. PhD would be nice, and it would certainly be nice to save two years, but I don't think I have a chance at them. I'm going to apply to big universities, but I know I probably won't make it. My education masters degree (2014) might be all that it takes to get me to where I want to go. I know that community colleges aren't that picky about who they hire. But, if not... I really don't want to wait around another year, just to find out that the education masters is not enough. I think I should apply for some programs, hope that I get some letters back, and maybe move on to get my masters. Thoughts?

 

Yes... it never hurts to apply! As long as you have the money to spend on the application fees and enough time to churn out good applications (especially a stellar SOP), you should go for it! In the worst case scenario, you find that you need a biology MS for the job you want but don't get any grad school acceptances... if that happens, you can still continue at your current job for another year, right? I know that's not ideal because you hate where you work, but it's still a viable contingency plan that will pay rent and feed you as you reapply during the next application cycle. So, I'd say go for it!

 

Several people have pointed out that master's degrees are sometimes not worth it, and that's true. In some cases, they really are "cash cows" for the university. No one should spend tens of thousands of dollars on an MS unless s/he anticipates making tons and tons of money later on (which, with just an MS, is pretty unlikely). And for students with strong backgrounds in biology who want to go on to a PhD, an MS is useless (as I found out firsthand :-(). But, that said, let's not discredit all master's programs or say that they're never a good option. Given your circumstances, sg_87, I think that a master's program is the best option for now; then, if you decide that you want to get the PhD/need the PhD for the career you desire, you can get one once you have the MS under your belt. Just be wary of accepting any offer that is not funded. There are many master's programs in the sciences that offer either full funding or partial funding-- those are the ones that you want. Given the sequester and the sad state of academic funding in general, funded master's programs may become rarer over the next few years. But I don't think that they will entirely disappear. You should be able to find several good programs that aren't simply "cash cows" if you look around.

 

I am not sure what I would want to study yet. I like everything. I know that I don't want biochemistry, because it bores me to tears. I'm leaning toward ecology. I do not have the money to do any other classes, and I certainly don't have the money to do unpaid internships. I am quite literally stuck where I am.

 

This is something that you need to figure out before you apply. It's good to have broad interests, but you really need to have a solid idea of what you want to study in graduate school. Most applications will ask you about your specific research interests and goals, and will reject applications that don't show a good level of focus. Now, you don't need to know the exact, specific research system that you want to explore (i.e. you don't need something like, "I'm interested in the biogeography of this genus in eastern South America!"). But you shouldn't also say, "I don't know what I want to research yet; it's all good to me." Many schools consider academic fit the single most important criterion when reviewing applications. They'll look at your SOP and see if your research interests match the research currently being conducted by faculty members in the department. If it doesn't, they'll toss your application in the reject pile. But if the research interests in your SOP are too vague to too "all over the place" (for lack of a better phrase), chances are that your application will still go in the reject pile. So, I guess my #1 piece of advice is to figure out what you're interested in. You say that you're leaning towards ecology, so I'd recommend picking up a general ecology textbook and giving it a read (or at least flipping through it). Then, pick out a few chapters that you find really interesting, and use that as a starting point. Maybe you'll really get into restoration ecology? Or aquatic ecology? The coevolution of mutualisms (e.g. pollinator ecology)? Population dynamics? There are tons of options, but this is probably the level of specificity that you want (though if you can get more specific, that's fine too and maybe even better). I'd also recommend checking out books on several other related fields, like evolutionary biology and behavior (these fields, along with ecology, are typically grouped together to form EEB departments/sub-departments at most colleges). You might find something in there that interests you as well. You could also check out conservation biology, biogeography, taxonomy/systematics, or an organism-based field (entomology, ornithology, ichthyology, etc.). Right now I'm just rattling off biological disciplines that are not very heavy on biochemistry. The point, though, is to look into it and see what you find really interesting. The best way to find that out is to get some firsthand experience in some of these fields (via an internship or tech position), but since that's not feasible at the moment, checking out books and review articles is probably the way to go right now.

 

You might find that a lot of the things that you read about interest you, and that's okay! But for your SOP, you really should pick one topic and focus on it. Just make sure that the topic you choose is something that is currently being explored by at least one faculty member at the school!

 

I am going to ask my previous professors for reccomendations. Even though I have no real world research experience, the university I went to let the undergrads do a lot of research like work. I know how to use machines and computer programs that most undergrads aren't even allowed in the lab with. I'm hoping that my university professors will at least attest to that.

 

You can ask them to attest to that! There's nothing wrong with asking your letter writers to speak to specific strengths of yours. Some will even ask you what you want them to say about you in the letter. When you request recommendations from these professors, remind them of this work that you did and explain why you think it has helped prepare you for graduate studies. You can also mention that in your SOP; in fact, I'd highly suggest it.

 

I hope this helps! :-)

[sg_87]

Thank you for the advice everyone!

 

Over the weekend I found several openings at private schools. One was a college prep school. I think I would like it better there. If I end up getting a job like that, then obviously it is all a moot point.

 

However, in case I don't... I am still going to get the applications started.

 

backtoschool13 - Good luck in your quest!

[Gina]

Good luck with the job applications. I was in a secondary education biology program during college, and ended up dropping the teaching component and just finishing with a plain biology degree when I figured out that I am not very good at teaching high school kids and creating lesson plans. I was doing my teaching component at an inner city school and I just don't have what it takes to get those kids motivated and working. So, I decided to try research! My MS degree was therefore very helpful for getting me extra experience and landing me a decent job... and I am now starting my PhD in the fall. Yes, the MS is a cash cow in many cases, but in some cases they are partially or fully funded, and it is a necessary stepping stone when you have almost no research experience as I did during my undergrad due to switching around my major/career choices. I also was able to teach an undergrad laboratory course during my MS, too, which was really fun, rewarding, and gave me extra money. It was also WAY easier than teaching high school students. Truly. No one appreciates elementary and high school teachers enough for what they do. It is a very challenging career, for those of us that take our careers seriously and want to do the best for people around us.

 

Just try to think of a general research focus for your MS as you apply so that you can write a good statement of purpose.

[LDY]

sg_87, I was in a somewhat similar place before I started grad school in that I had been out of undergrad for 5 years and did very little research when I was an undergrad (1 summer's worth of work that led to no pubs and the project wasn't terribly independent) when I applied for PhD programs. My advice, which will largely reflect what has already been said is #1 to figure out what you want to study. Start reading the primary literature and figure out what gets you excited so you can speak intelligently about it in your applications and interviews. Also as mentioned, there are funded M.S. programs, I'd even go so far as to say you shouldn't do a research masters that you have to pay for. 

As far as making yourself as competitive as possible in the application process, I suggest two things that massively helped my application: studying really hard for the GREs (I ended up scoring well on the general & subject GREs and some I interviewed with commented on my scores reflecting that I was "really a scientist at heart", despite having limited experience in research) and getting some research experience. If you're willing to take a summer off, which sounds like it might be possible with your current job, check out field tech or other summer research positions on ecolog or evoldir. They won't pay well AT ALL, but they will give you experience and it's possible to find ones with free housing. 

 

Good luck!