Application to the PhD LESS Competative with an MA?

[Bpr2106]

It really seems as if it's program to program. Further, when discussing whether or not getting an M.A. will make you a less competitive applicant, I really, really, think you need to factor in where said M.A. is from. If you get an M.A. from a lesser institution, or one that has a 'cash cow' reputation, then yes, perhaps it will be of little help. However, if you go and get yourself an M.A. from a top 15 school (pardon the use of rankings), then I just don't see how it would be harmful. I would be curious to hear where those who are vehemently against the M.A. received theirs.

[booksareneat]

I'm quite happy with how my non-highly ranked, funded MA worked out. Maybe it's just me.

[lyonessrampant]

I got my MA from UC. That program does have something of a reputation of being a cash cow, though I did get some funding, which helped. However, I NEVER felt like a second-class citizen. I had a lot of friends who were in the Ph.D. program. I took the highest level graduate seminar offered (though MA students must get permission from the prof to do this. The point is to make sure that you won't struggle too much in a seminar designed for 2nd-year Ph.D. students. After first quarter, pretty much every prof says yes. At least, I never heard of anyone being told no.) and got a better grade than some Ph.D. students. I know a lot of UC MA students who have been very successfull in getting into great Ph.D. programs. My results this year are mixed. I was told I was very close at UC and Princeton but couldn't be offered a spot. UC said it was because they went from 25 offers last year to 11 this year. Maybe they're just being nice, but I do feel much better qualified. Anyway, I think that an MA made me a better scholar, and I am optimistic about next year when my personal circumstances allow me to apply more widely and put a reasonable amount of time into the app process, which I didn't do this year.

[theorygrrl]

I've just got to throw my two cents in, here. . .

My MA made me a better writer, thinker, researcher, and scholar. Ive produced work in my two years in a third-tier state school (fully funded) MA program that has gotten some serious attention, and I can't imagine what it would have been like to apply to PhD programs without the experience I gained doing the MA. If, for example, I go back and compare my SOP then to the SOP that just went to eight schools (with about 50% success, so far), the difference is astounding, not only because I know more about literature and cultural studies, but because writing a lot makes better writers. The rhetoric is just better.

That said, although it may comfort me to think, "well, these schools didn't accept me because I already have an MA," the fact is that they just didn't accept me. Period. There's nothing any of us can do about rejections at this point, other than to remain bitter about one or two (grrrr) for a week or so and then move on with the process.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just glad to be getting that MA in a few weeks, glad I went where I did for it, and glad that I was able to produce a writing sample and SOP--while in the MA program--that got me accepted to a handful of programs.

[rinneron]

I'm extremely happy I got (am getting... it's not May yet!) an MA, but I also definitely attend one of those cash cow schools (thanks NYU -- no secrets here!). When you're an MA student here, the program is alienating, difficult to navigate, and I've also (not singularly, but during my courses) been discouraged from getting a PhD because, basically, if you only got into the MA this time, you're not getting a PhD ever. (There are some nice profs at NYU, however, and if you can find them, hang on with all your might! They got me through the last two years.) That said, the MA students themselves all basically feel the same (with a few lucky exceptions, and god knows I won't be bursting their bubbles), so you've got a great support network/group to complain with, and they themselves are working hard to create more of a cohesive MA community. NYU's faculty has also become aware, if only slightly, that their MA program leaves many disgruntled students, and I do think they're trying to fix its problems.

My MA has helped me tremendously, and I know the training I got while at NYU is the reason I got into grad school. That isn't to say my undergrad work did nothing; however, I learned much more about graduate school as a business, and how to be successful at that business, while at NYU. I like to think of it this way: undergrad gave me a BA in theoretical foundation and intellectual courage; NYU gave me an MBA in Being A Successful Scholar and Critic.

I lean towards the "it's bullshit" side of things when it comes to the argument that if you have an MA, you're less competitive. I'm an obvious example, but that's horribly biased of me -- a lot of friends of mine took the same route, specifically to an English PhD: apply to PhDs, get rejected from everywhere but get offered an MA; take MA program and get MA; get into good PhD programs. It all depends on what kind of applicant and how prepared for graduate study you are. Some of us come straight outta the BA farm a tasty top grade filet mignon, some of us (me!) come out pretty good sirloins that need a little more seasoning. If you use the MA program you attend well, get your seasoning, buff up your literary and theoretical knowledge, and really hone in on your critical interests, your statement of purpose will reflect that and the PhD programs you apply to will notice. If you wasted your MA and didn't work as hard as you could, your statement of purpose will also reflect that and be a big red flag to adcoms: you already tried grad school, and maybe it's just not right for you.

My Dad once broke it down for me (he's a lit PhD in the "Business"): Once you get an MA, it's a foot in the door; but don't stand around idly waiting for someone to open the door the rest of the way, you've got to take the initiative or your foot's gonna get cut off. Okay, so maybe I'm taking a few creative liberties with his words (then again, we're both born and bred Jersey kids, so the diction could be right...), but the idea is this: MA programs are like a test. If you do well -- and I mean *exceptionally* well -- you'll pass the test and get another shot at the next level.

And, slightly off topic: NYU's English Department at least never offers funding to their MA students. MA students' money literally pays for the PhDs. Like I said, it's a business.

[anese]

I'd say it makes you more competitive in the current economic crisis. Every single one of our doctoral perspectives for next year has atleast one MA, one has 2. Last year, none had MA degrees.

[littledoubty]

Sorry for digging this topic up though quite some time has passed, but I just felt the urge to reply...

Honestly checking this discussion made me really nervous as I am a second year MA student, and I never even thought about the possibility that me holding an MA degree could diminish my chances for acceptance.

However, becoming nervous I checked the grad students sections of Yale (Comparative Literature), as Yale was pointed out to be one of the programs known for not accepting students already having an MA. But actually the webpage did not seem to approve this statement, as the number of students with an MA did not strike me as awfully low.

Okay, my research was pretty limited but I allowed myself to draw a conclusion namely that it seems to be the whole application that matters and that having been previously an MA student does not hinder you from entering most of the departments (I cannot speak generally as I lack the necessary knowledge, but I am doing it nevertheless).

And for the likely case that I will be rejected from each of the universities I applied to, this tread will give me consolation, as I then can say: it was not about me, it was my MA

[circumfession]

This is such a difficult issue to address, largely because there are so many factors:

-how does the particular program you're applying to regard MA students? (this can also change from year to year, depending on the exact composition of the ad-coms)

-what MA program did you come out of? How strong is it for your particular field?

-what did you learn from your MA, and how does that translate in your writing?

The MA degree is definitely a double-edged sword, and I really think it depends on how well you made use of your resources. The MA itself will not be a particular asset, and it can actually be an obstacle: I suspect that the bar is slightly higher for students applying with an MA versus those who are going straight with a Ph.D. While the ad-comms do not necessarily want a largely (particularly, if bloated) CV, they do expect to see more sophisticated levels of argumentation, better writing, better research: whereas the BA candidate needs to show potential, the MA candidate is supposed to begin fulfilling it.

That said, the MA is the great equalizer: it gives students who might not have been quite *as* prepared in their undergrad programs a chance to gain the level of sophistication and knowledge necessary to do well. It's an opportunity: a valuable one for the right student, but not valuable in and of itself. After two rounds in which he failed to gain acceptance into ANY Ph.D program (including ones that are barely ranked), my partner obtained an MA from a particularly notorious "cash cow" program--and yes against all advice, he paid for it himself. With the MA in hand, he got into one of the top programs in the country, ranked several dozen places above either his MA or his BA institution. I sincerely doubt that ANY program found the extra letters behind his name to be impressive, but the writing sample and SoP that he turned in for this last round were incomparably better what he submitted the previous two rounds...and he gained that knowledge/level of writing only through the immersion of his MA program.

I think--and perhaps I'm being optimistic here--that in the end, the application is judged on its own merit. Even if the particular ad-comm member disapproves of the cash cow MA program, he or she will still read (or at least skim) the SoP and the beginnings of the writing sample (assuming that your numbers are good enough to pass the initial cuts). If you can think, write, research, and argue extraordinarily well, that will come through no matter where you obtained your last degree.

That said, I suspect that part of the stigma surrounding MA programs is simply that many candidates are NOT well-prepared when they enter the MA program, and even after 1-2 years, not all of them are sufficiently prepared to be competitive at the top Ph.D programs. Somewhere around 80-90% of my partner's MA cohort had never written a 20 page paper when they entered the program. (By contrast, some of the students at top undergrad programs write 100 page senior thesis). For some, the year-long program is sufficient time to play check-up...for others, well, they never quite do catch up.