Philosophical work in Comp. Lit. and Rhetoric?

[surlefil]

Hi! I'm a Philosophy student and I intend to apply to a Ph.D. Since I'm interested in Aesthetics in continental philosophy, I've started thinking about applying to a Comp. Lit. or Rhetoric program. I've seen some of the coursework is philosophical, but I would like to know if you think it is possible to do philosophical research in those Ph.D. programs. Could you help me telling me your experiences or mentioning interesting people in those programs who are philosophers?

Thanks!

[apres-coup]

I don't know what the work looks like for people in these programs, but Berkeley's rhet department has an area emphasis in continental philosophy and critical theory, and Judith Butler is over there. I know there are other programs like that, but it's not my area so I'm probably not gonna be very helpful.

[sebastiansteddy]

Check out SUNY Buffalo's comp lit - very oriented toward continental philosophy.

[ComeBackZinc]

Bear in mind that Berkely's rhet program is very different from rhet/comp programs. 

 

I would personally say that while I'm not sure that you would want to take a philosophy focus into a rhet/comp program, you can certainly take a theoretical focus. It helps if you're from certain programs that have a strong theory contingent, like St. Louis or Purdue.

[Bennett]

Hi surlefil,

 

I work primarily on Marxism and philosophical aesthetics (did my M.A. thesis on Adorno & Benjamin, am also very interested in Schiller, Schlegel, Bloch, Lukacs, etc etc) and I've done Lit degrees all the way through--B.A., M.A. and now PhD--so yes, it is certainly possible. That said, it very much depends on where you go, and also how you want to position yourself on the job market afterwards. (In other words, if you want to teach in a philosophy department than you should probably go for a Phil. PhD, if you want to teach philosophy from within a lit department, go with lit; I think there are pros and cons to each of these.)

 

As other commenters have noted, "rhetoric and composition" programs are really not where you want to be going. (The focus in composition programs is on, well, composition.) Berkeley Rhetoric is the exception and I think you should definitely look into/apply there, but that's not a "rhetoric" program in the normal sense of the word. It's a very interdisciplinary department with a strong emphasis on critical theory and continental philosophy, which sounds like it would work quite well for you.

 

Other programs with a similar focus: Duke Literature, Stanford's Modern Thought and Literature, Minnesota's Comparative Studies in Discourse and Society... these are all, not unrelatedly, programs to which I applied.   I think those three (plus Berkeley) are really the most obvious fits, though I could probably come up with some others: U Penn, Cornell, and *maybe* Johns Hopkins. Basically, you want to be looking at Comp Lit programs that have an explicitly theoretical focus, as opposed to the more traditional comparatist programs that you'll find at Yale, Harvard, etc etc.

 

In terms of specific people: it would be helpful to know more specifically what you're interested in working on. "Aesthetic philosophy" is still quite a broad category and, depending on focus, could point you different ways; if you can give us some more precision, I may be able to come up with some advice that's more specific. 

[Bennett]

Also, and re: apres coup's earlier comment, word on the street is that Butler is leaving (has left?) Berkeley for greener pastures. That said, she's not really working on your area(s) of interest so I don't think that should affect your decision.

[Fishbucket]

Butler is at Columbia now

[wreckofthehope]

Also, maybe something like UCSC History of Consciousness? I would look for continental philo friendly interdisciplinary departments. Emory's ILA, perhaps; it also might be worth looking in Canada since it seems to me like they are more friendly, in general, to contintental thought. I didn't get the sense that Stanford's MTL would be  good place to do continental, at all....maybe I'm wrong?

 

Edit: to second Buffalo Comp Lit, and to add Penn State Comp Lit and Emory Comp Lit.

Edited April 11, 2013 by wreckofthehope

[surlefil]

Ok, thanks everyone for your inputs!!

 

Hi surlefil,

 

I work primarily on Marxism and philosophical aesthetics (did my M.A. thesis on Adorno & Benjamin, am also very interested in Schiller, Schlegel, Bloch, Lukacs, etc etc) and I've done Lit degrees all the way through--B.A., M.A. and now PhD--so yes, it is certainly possible. That said, it very much depends on where you go, and also how you want to position yourself on the job market afterwards. (In other words, if you want to teach in a philosophy department than you should probably go for a Phil. PhD, if you want to teach philosophy from within a lit department, go with lit; I think there are pros and cons to each of these.)

 

(...)

 

Other programs with a similar focus: Duke Literature, Stanford's Modern Thought and Literature, Minnesota's Comparative Studies in Discourse and Society... these are all, not unrelatedly, programs to which I applied.   I think those three (plus Berkeley) are really the most obvious fits, though I could probably come up with some others: U Penn, Cornell, and *maybe* Johns Hopkins. Basically, you want to be looking at Comp Lit programs that have an explicitly theoretical focus, as opposed to the more traditional comparatist programs that you'll find at Yale, Harvard, etc etc.

 

In terms of specific people: it would be helpful to know more specifically what you're interested in working on. "Aesthetic philosophy" is still quite a broad category and, depending on focus, could point you different ways; if you can give us some more precision, I may be able to come up with some advice that's more specific. 

 

Thank you very much. So, I’ve studied a lot of modern philosophy (Spinoza, Descartes, Kant (a lot), Hume, Fichte, Schelling, Nietzsche (a lot), etc.), but now I would like to start studying more contemporary philosophy. Right now my research is focused on the relationship between museum culture and philosophy, so that goes from modernity up to now. I wanted to apply to a Ph.D. program in Philosophy, but I would like to do something more interdisciplinary (in some Philosophy departments it is possible, in others not so much). I’m interested in taking my research from philosophy to painting, music, dance, cinema. Does that help a little? If not, please ask me. Thank you really much for your help

 

Another thing: I intend to apply with my boyfriend, so we’re aiming at universities in NYC, Boston and Chicago especially, and universities in the UK close to London, so that we have more chances of being accepted in the same place.

 

Thanks again!!

[wreckofthehope]

Ok, thanks everyone for your inputs!!

 

 

Thank you very much. So, I’ve studied a lot of modern philosophy (Spinoza, Descartes, Kant (a lot), Hume, Fichte, Schelling, Nietzsche (a lot), etc.), but now I would like to start studying more contemporary philosophy. Right now my research is focused on the relationship between museum culture and philosophy, so that goes from modernity up to now. I wanted to apply to a Ph.D. program in Philosophy, but I would like to do something more interdisciplinary (in some Philosophy departments it is possible, in others not so much). I’m interested in taking my research from philosophy to painting, music, dance, cinema. Does that help a little? If not, please ask me. Thank you really much for your help

 

Another thing: I intend to apply with my boyfriend, so we’re aiming at universities in NYC, Boston and Chicago especially, and universities in the UK close to London, so that we have more chances of being accepted in the same place.

 

Thanks again!!

In London : Birkbeck for sure - look into their London Consortium PhD. It's an interdisciplinary center that's jointly run by Birkbeck with film and architecture institutions and museums and they are highly focused on contemporary theory and philosophy.

 

Also, it's about an hour outside of London on the train but totally commutable, the University of Essex has a joint Philosophy and Art History department that is one of the best places to do continental philosophy in the UK and I have no doubt they'd be interested in a project like yours.

Edited April 12, 2013 by wreckofthehope

[poliscar]

Butler is at Columbia now

As a permanent faculty member now? Has this been officially confirmed? 

[Swagato]

It's probable. I don't know the latest on that, but here's the Spectator: http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2010/11/11/judith-butler-join-faculty-2012

[Bennett]

Ok, thanks everyone for your inputs!!

 

 

Thank you very much. So, I’ve studied a lot of modern philosophy (Spinoza, Descartes, Kant (a lot), Hume, Fichte, Schelling, Nietzsche (a lot), etc.), but now I would like to start studying more contemporary philosophy. Right now my research is focused on the relationship between museum culture and philosophy, so that goes from modernity up to now. I wanted to apply to a Ph.D. program in Philosophy, but I would like to do something more interdisciplinary (in some Philosophy departments it is possible, in others not so much). I’m interested in taking my research from philosophy to painting, music, dance, cinema. Does that help a little? If not, please ask me. Thank you really much for your help

 

Another thing: I intend to apply with my boyfriend, so we’re aiming at universities in NYC, Boston and Chicago especially, and universities in the UK close to London, so that we have more chances of being accepted in the same place.

 

Thanks again!!

 

Is your boyfriend also applying for literature/philosophy? In either case, I would go about the process in reverse: rather than starting with a list of "big" cities and constructing your applications around that, I would draw up a list of the schools to which each of you are interested in applying, cross-check your lists for geographic overlap, and work from there. I say this because 1) many of the best schools for you (and/or your boyfriend) may be in cities other than New York or Boston, so I think you shouldn't arbitrarily narrow your focus to those places, and 2) I personally think departmental "fit" should be your first and foremost consideration, above other factors such as ranking and location. I mean, U.S. PhD programs are insanely competitive; you'll have a better chance applying to a program which genuinely excites you (and which is thus more likely to be excited by your work) than arbitrarily applying to a program just because it's in New York. 

 

I think it is possible to pursue the kind of work that interests you in either a philosophy or a comp lit program. For philosophy, I think you'll want to stick with the programs that have a heavy continental focus (as you may know, there tends to be--still--a big divide between continental and analytic programs). You can find lists of such programs all over the internet but off the top of my head I'd list Penn State, Stony Brook, Villanova, Emory, Northwestern, Loyola, Depaul, Duquesne, etc. And Chicago. Maybe Boston College too. Doubtless other people can add some more.

 

In terms of comp lit, I'd say you have a good list here based on what people have already named.

 

As to which one to choose (philosophy or literature) I think there are three primary questions: 1) in which discipline would you like to end up teaching?; 2) in which are you more likely to be accepted as a PhD candidate?; and 3) which degree will open up more doors? Only you can really answer the first question, but I have some things for you to think about in regards to the latter two:

 

1.) For better or worse, most of the strong continental philosophy programs don't have a lot of name recognition outside of continental circles. These schools do regularly hire from one-another (e.g. someone from Stony Brook going to Villanova) but it's very unlikely that a Stony Brook philosophy grad will get a job at, say, Princeton. In other words, a degree from a continental philosophy program will set you up to get a job at another continental philosophy program--which is great!--but also limiting.

 

On the other hand, a degree from a *good* comp lit department may open up more doors... while closing others. As we all know (and endlessly discuss) the job market for humanities degrees is pretty terrible, but I get the sense that things are a little less appalling in philosophy than in literature. On the other hand, a comp lit degree may hold value in wider arenas. What I mean by this: a Duke Literature degree will mean something in narrow comp lit circles, but it will also hold value to a broader audience, purely by virtue of the "Duke" moniker. I.e., the Duke label really might get you a job at Princeton, where the Stony Brook would not. (I think it's also more likely to have real name-recognition on the foreign market--and, as I notice you're from Argentina, that might be a concern.) In other words, because a lot of the good comp lit programs (Berkeley, Duke, U Penn, etc) happen to be at Ivies or other prestigious universities, they may give you a bit more cultural clout. This will not be true of the Phil programs to which you'd be applying. (You do not want to apply to Duke Philosophy--e.g.--with your stated interests; trust me on this.)

 

2.) I think you also have to think how you will look to an admissions committee. This is complex. On the one hand, if your B.A. degree is in philosophy, that would seem to set you up quite naturally for philosophy programs. On the other hand, I think you have to look closely at your status as an international applicant. Baldly put, comparative literature programs have--by their very nature--a vested interest in attracting foreign applicants/native speakers of other languages, whereas philosophy programs do not (or not as much). I'm only familiar with the composition of a few continental philosophy cohorts but those I know tend to be virtually all American--whereas most Comp Lit programs are quite international.

 

What I'm really saying is that, if you end up applying to comp lit, you should seriously think about marketing yourself as a Latin Americanist, because that will give you a serious edge. Like, I would say that I was interested in investigating philosophy and museum culture, but also throw in a line about wanting to investigate the way that museums have been part of the colonial project in Latin America and how you're interested in investigating the way that archives have been used to classify--and pacify--the native "other." And I would say this even if it's not really something that interests you. That might sound cynical, or it might just be strategic essentialism. But being a (presumably) native Spanish speaker working on continental philosophy and museum culture in the context of Latin America not only gives you an edge over your competitors, it also positions you as working on something at once trendy and unusual. (I mean, how many post-colonialists are deeply engaging with Kant? Well, aside from Spivak.) It sounds hot.

 

3.) Related to point two: while many French programs are dwindling--and German programs are dying--Spanish and Latin American studies departments are doing really well! I think a comp lit degree from a good university with a focus on aesthetics/philosophy/Latin America would virtually set you up to get a job teaching in a Spanish department, particularly because such programs tend to prioritize native speaker hires. If I were in your shoes, this is the route I would take: not to sell out your philosophical interests but to find a way to make them work/fit inside a degree field where you'd have a good chance of securing a TT position. Don't get me wrong: I hate making our intellectual interests conform to the job market (I'm a Marxist, for chrissake). But this is also the "actually existing" world that we live and love in, and in which we all have to find a job. I'd say it's really a question of translating your innate passions/interests into the existing structures, which can be a frustrating process but also a creative one. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. 

[surlefil]

Is your boyfriend also applying for literature/philosophy? In either case, I would go about the process in reverse: rather than starting with a list of "big" cities and constructing your applications around that, I would draw up a list of the schools to which each of you are interested in applying, cross-check your lists for geographic overlap, and work from there. I say this because 1) many of the best schools for you (and/or your boyfriend) may be in cities other than New York or Boston, so I think you shouldn't arbitrarily narrow your focus to those places, and 2) I personally think departmental "fit" should be your first and foremost consideration, above other factors such as ranking and location. I mean, U.S. PhD programs are insanely competitive; you'll have a better chance applying to a program which genuinely excites you (and which is thus more likely to be excited by your work) than arbitrarily applying to a program just because it's in New York. 

 

I think it is possible to pursue the kind of work that interests you in either a philosophy or a comp lit program. For philosophy, I think you'll want to stick with the programs that have a heavy continental focus (as you may know, there tends to be--still--a big divide between continental and analytic programs). You can find lists of such programs all over the internet but off the top of my head I'd list Penn State, Stony Brook, Villanova, Emory, Northwestern, Loyola, Depaul, Duquesne, etc. And Chicago. Maybe Boston College too. Doubtless other people can add some more.

 

In terms of comp lit, I'd say you have a good list here based on what people have already named.

 

As to which one to choose (philosophy or literature) I think there are three primary questions: 1) in which discipline would you like to end up teaching?; 2) in which are you more likely to be accepted as a PhD candidate?; and 3) which degree will open up more doors? Only you can really answer the first question, but I have some things for you to think about in regards to the latter two:

 

1.) For better or worse, most of the strong continental philosophy programs don't have a lot of name recognition outside of continental circles. These schools do regularly hire from one-another (e.g. someone from Stony Brook going to Villanova) but it's very unlikely that a Stony Brook philosophy grad will get a job at, say, Princeton. In other words, a degree from a continental philosophy program will set you up to get a job at another continental philosophy program--which is great!--but also limiting.

 

On the other hand, a degree from a *good* comp lit department may open up more doors... while closing others. As we all know (and endlessly discuss) the job market for humanities degrees is pretty terrible, but I get the sense that things are a little less appalling in philosophy than in literature. On the other hand, a comp lit degree may hold value in wider arenas. What I mean by this: a Duke Literature degree will mean something in narrow comp lit circles, but it will also hold value to a broader audience, purely by virtue of the "Duke" moniker. I.e., the Duke label really might get you a job at Princeton, where the Stony Brook would not. (I think it's also more likely to have real name-recognition on the foreign market--and, as I notice you're from Argentina, that might be a concern.) In other words, because a lot of the good comp lit programs (Berkeley, Duke, U Penn, etc) happen to be at Ivies or other prestigious universities, they may give you a bit more cultural clout. This will not be true of the Phil programs to which you'd be applying. (You do not want to apply to Duke Philosophy--e.g.--with your stated interests; trust me on this.)

 

2.) I think you also have to think how you will look to an admissions committee. This is complex. On the one hand, if your B.A. degree is in philosophy, that would seem to set you up quite naturally for philosophy programs. On the other hand, I think you have to look closely at your status as an international applicant. Baldly put, comparative literature programs have--by their very nature--a vested interest in attracting foreign applicants/native speakers of other languages, whereas philosophy programs do not (or not as much). I'm only familiar with the composition of a few continental philosophy cohorts but those I know tend to be virtually all American--whereas most Comp Lit programs are quite international.

 

What I'm really saying is that, if you end up applying to comp lit, you should seriously think about marketing yourself as a Latin Americanist, because that will give you a serious edge. Like, I would say that I was interested in investigating philosophy and museum culture, but also throw in a line about wanting to investigate the way that museums have been part of the colonial project in Latin America and how you're interested in investigating the way that archives have been used to classify--and pacify--the native "other." And I would say this even if it's not really something that interests you. That might sound cynical, or it might just be strategic essentialism. But being a (presumably) native Spanish speaker working on continental philosophy and museum culture in the context of Latin America not only gives you an edge over your competitors, it also positions you as working on something at once trendy and unusual. (I mean, how many post-colonialists are deeply engaging with Kant? Well, aside from Spivak.) It sounds hot.

 

3.) Related to point two: while many French programs are dwindling--and German programs are dying--Spanish and Latin American studies departments are doing really well! I think a comp lit degree from a good university with a focus on aesthetics/philosophy/Latin America would virtually set you up to get a job teaching in a Spanish department, particularly because such programs tend to prioritize native speaker hires. If I were in your shoes, this is the route I would take: not to sell out your philosophical interests but to find a way to make them work/fit inside a degree field where you'd have a good chance of securing a TT position. Don't get me wrong: I hate making our intellectual interests conform to the job market (I'm a Marxist, for chrissake). But this is also the "actually existing" world that we live and love in, and in which we all have to find a job. I'd say it's really a question of translating your innate passions/interests into the existing structures, which can be a frustrating process but also a creative one. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. 

 

Thanks a LOT. All you said was really helpful. As to location, my boyfriend will apply to a Ph.D. en Economics, so we’re not looking at the same places in the same way. Location is important for me, because as I’m interested in Aesthetics, I would like to live in a city that has an interesting cultural world, and NYC would be just perfect. But I understand what you said about fit, and I agree. The reason for which I have this philosophy vs. comp. lit. doubt is because continental programs in philosophy are interesting, but comp. lit. have positive things like multidisciplinary programs, and more freedom as to areas of study.

All you said about international students is really useful, thank you so much!