Sociology and Law -- what to do if you want to work in legal academia?

[24601]

Hello, board! First post! 

 

A little about me: 

 

I am just finishing up my first year in law school and I have absolutely LOVED it (I'm not crazy about studying for my exams next week, but that aside, this has been the most stimulating academic experience I've ever had). I'd like to continue into legal academia, and I think getting my PhD would increase my chances of success significantly. 

 

My scholarly interest center largely around rape policy and rape reform (with an additional interest in sexuality and gender). 

 

Relevant information (maybe?): my law school is ranked in the top 25 and I, personally, am in the top 20% of my class (we'll see if that changes after finals). I'm working closely with a highly-regarded faculty member both in regards to her research and my own scholarly pursuits. I hope to publish twice before I finish law school, either in my school's law review or elsewhere. I haven't taken the GRE yet, but I scored in the 95th percentile on my LSAT and I'm hoping that's at least somewhat indicative of my test-taking skills.

 

Any ideas about programs that have that sort of law and policy focus? I've looked at Berkeley's JSP program  and I am a little bit in love with it, but dubious about my chances of admission and I'd like to explore other options. I'm not ruling out Berkeley entirely (esp since my main faculty contact here did the program and would be willing to make a call/recommend me/whatever), but I'd like to know what else is out there. 

Edited April 20, 2013 by 24601

[socspice]

There are a number of great law/policy or law/society programs out there with strong JD/PhD programs (or just one or the other). Other than JSP, I'd take a good look at UC-Irvine, Wisconsin, Buffalo, and Northwestern. You might also look into Minnesota, Washington, and Duke. Good luck!

[amlobo]

I would talk to some of your professors and get their input (which I am sure you are doing already ).  I only say this because when I was in law school, none of my professors had a PhD... it seemed like most did have some work experience in the law, though.  So, I would just really talk with professors about the best course of action for you.  It sounds like you're interested in criminal law, so maybe talking to some crim profs would be helpful.  Being at a top school is a good start on your journey, and I'd say you will definitely need to do law review (seems to be the "pet" activity for all things law), and a publication is desirable, of course.  I did law review and loved it; I published an article in law school... and I must say that the whole process is a fantastic way to get you acclimated to independent research and scholarly publication.  

 

Of course, there is no "one way" to do anything, and if you want to pursue a PhD in addition to your JD, good for you!  I am a practicing lawyer going back for a PhD, and just be forewarned - you will not get any "credit" for having a JD.  You will have to take all of the same courses as a student with a BA only.  Therefore, a PhD will add 5-8 years to your journey to academia, so just really think about weighing the costs/benefits of getting an additional degree (though I guess you could always get hired as a law prof while working on your dissertation...).  I am not particularly interested in legal academia, but I do like that my JD gives me that option!

 

I can't say that I know a ton about law-oriented soc programs, but you might also want to check out the joint policy programs (Princeton, Harvard, Michigan...).  These kinds of joint programs are incredibly competitive but might be worth a look.  If you have any other law-related questions, feel free to PM me!  Best of luck on your upcoming exams

[24601]

Thanks for the input!! 

 

I am definitely working with a couple of the faculty members here, one who has her PhD (and who will likely be my biggest cheerleader). I'm told that the best route to academia from law school is to do law review and then clerk for the federal courts (preferably the appellate courts), and then do a PhD, so I think that's my (tentative) plan. 

 

I'm glad you loved law review, amlobo. I've heard nothing but horror stories and I'm dreading it a little (all the spading!). Hopefully it won't be as awful as I imagine. 

 

And thank you both for the school recs -- I'll check them out!

[amlobo]

I'm glad you loved law review, amlobo. I've heard nothing but horror stories and I'm dreading it a little (all the spading!). Hopefully it won't be as awful as I imagine. 

 

I won't lie; it was a lot of work!  I am a huge nerd and love editing, but cite checking was the pits.  Editing my issue, while grading the write-on competition, was probably the most hellishly busy time of my life... but very rewarding.  

[Angua]

Definitely talk to your professors -- I got some really frank, helpful advice from them when I decided to shoot for legal academia.  My profile was similar to yours - top-25 law school, top 10%, law review, etc.  I clerked after graduation in a state supreme court -- as you point out, federal appellate would probably have been better, but it can definitely be a crapshoot, especially given the state of the legal economy.  I knew I wanted to clerk when I started law school, but I had to compete against thousands of applicants with similar profiles, some of whom were actually interested in clerking, but many of whom would have gone straight to a Big Firm if they could have.

 

The biggest hurdle I have to overcome (and you will, too) is that a vast and ever-increasing majority of law professors went to law school at a very small handful of schools: Yale, Stanford, and UChicago... plus a smattering from other Top 10 schools like Harvard and Columbia.  There may be a pushback against this trend in the works, but it is likely to hold for the foreseeable future.  It used to be that students at these schools could graduate with law review, clerk, and then get hired right away (or after 2-3 years practicing).  Now, even a lot of these students go to VAP (Visiting Assistant/Associate Professor) programs or fellowships (like Chicago's Bigelow program) before they can get tenure-track jobs.

 

You say you are at a top-25 school, so I'm going to assume that (like me) you aren't at one of these super-elites.  For us, the traditional model was to graduate with law review, clerk, and then work for 7-8 years or more while publishing.  This is still possible, but it is increasingly competitive, and many of these candidates are also turning to VAP programs first (in turn making VAPs harder to get as well).  Plus, you may be like me -- not interested in practicing for almost a decade (and you'd rather spend that time really developing scholarship, in a PhD program).

 

The PhD route, however, is becoming increasingly common as well.  As more schools look to hire faculty with extensive non-law knowledge, candidates with strong PhDs are becoming more appealing.  As someone who was in a good-but-not-great law school, I think the best way to take advantage of this trend is to position yourself so that your PhD is the headline on your CV.  This is going to be literally true no matter what, but it should be holistically true as well.  In other words, if another field (like sociology) really interests you (and if it doesn't, consider seriously whether you want to spend 5 years working on it for a PhD), make yourself an exceptional scholar in that field first and foremost.  Be a strong, impressive sociologist who just happens to study its implications for law, or whatever. 

 

One note that may be controversial (and make me sound even more credential-obsessed): this route means that you need a PhD that will be impressive to law school hiring committees.  One thing you have probably noticed about lawyers already -- we generally consider ourselves to be experts on everything.  And many hiring committees, staffed with lawyers and professors who know very little or nothing about your PhD field, will assume that prestige in law equates to prestige in all other fields.  So you will have to be careful selecting a PhD program -- if you end up at a university where your program is #2, but the law school is #40, you are going to have some trouble.  (Just for the record, because typing this makes me so very sad: I am not endorsing the super-credential-obsessed culture of law schools, but I do believe you need to be fully aware of how it impacts you and your goals.)

 

Now, about the JSP program.  It's actually a really good route, especially if you don't particularly want to make yourself a first-rate scholar in some other field.  It is a very law-oriented program, and it places about half of its graduates in law schools (this is, I'm guessing, a better law school placement rate than any other PhD program in the country).  As you mention, it is very competitive.  Like any other PhD program, you need to have a really good sense of your research interests, and they need to fit well with the faculty there.  You may be a better candidate than you think -- I'd recommend some empirical research experience if you can get it to strengthen your application (this, incidentally, is true no matter which PhD programs you wind up applying to).

 

One other thing: a total lack of practice experience will hurt you, even with a PhD.  This is less true with a PhD than it is without, and it is less true in a field that is traditionally not very practice-heavy, such as Con Law, than it is with, say, Family Law (where you will have major issues with no practice experience).  No matter what, some deans just will not look seriously at candidates without practice experience.  Not all deans -- but some.  The advice I was given was to get practice experience anywhere I can before I go on the market -- look at pro bono work or consulting, for example.  Consider getting involved with non-profits that relate to your interests in a professional capacity if you can.  Look for opportunities, and take them -- so even if you don't plan to practice, do plan to pass the bar and get a license to practice.

 

Feel free to PM me if you have questions or want more specific details about my experiences than I'm willing to post here.   Good luck!

[Angua]

That all sounds way more negative than I want to be about this.  I'm working towards this, and I think it's great that you are, too, and I think we can both do it!

 

Also, I met some really cool people on law review.  I wouldn't say I loved it, but most of what I didn't like about it was that you really have to give up anything else to be involved in the leadership -- the senior editors don't have time to do moot court, or trial team, or TA, etc.  Which is a bummer, given that we encourage the best and brightest to do law review first.  But I learned a lot, and it will definitely make you a grade-A expert on the Bluebook.  And isn't that what we all want?

[24601]

WOW. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond -- just finished journal write-on and it's been eating me alive for two weeks. Your posts were SO helpful, and it's nice to meet someone on the same path. 

 

It's good to know that legal academics want to see PhD schools that are reputable in the legal field. I suspected as much, but it's good to have that confirmed so I'll know where to direct my applications when the time comes. 

 

I do hope to practice at some point, but I feel like I don't really have time? I don't know where I'm getting that idea, but it's there. I'm 25 and I didn't come to law school straight from undergrad (took two years off), so I feel like there isn't enough time to clerk, practice, then do a PhD and then teach. I'm aware that this is probably absurd. I do like the idea, though. I'd work at a DAs office for a year or two (the professor who has been advising me on this said that law schools these days don't want to see long practice histories) and I'm sure I'd find plenty of research fodder (although I already have some pretty clear ideas about what I'd like to research). 

 

Anyway, thanks for all of the input. And look for a PM.