a lot of questions concerning admission requirements

[Nuya]

Hi,

 

I am currently studying at a German university (BSc in biology).

At some point I would love to leave Germany behind and move to Canada. Now there are two possibilities:

- I could either give it a try and apply as a Masters student to start next year around september

- or I could wait and apply directly as a PhD student after my MSc in three years (sorry for bothering you with plans that far in the future).

 

Whatever my decision I have some trouble really understanding the admission requirements.

For instance I am wondering what grades do I actually need for admission to which university? Usually the minimum requirements are about the same, but I guess that there are universities where the actual requirements are a LOT higher than the minimum requirements and then there probably are universities where the actual requirements are a bit closer to the minimum requirements?

 

Checking the international degree equivalences I have difficulties as well, since it seems that some universities still use the old german degrees which are not offered anymore... Or they expect a 4 year bachelor which is not offered by one single university in germany (we only have 3 year bachelor degrees).

Than there is the issue with the grades we have numeric grades that translate into words ("gut", which means good for example translates to 1.7 to 2.3). On some pages I found as a minimum requirement "gut (2.0)" so that is confusing.

I would really love to get a reliable translation of my grades into the Canadian grading system in advance.

 

Now to the question of when to apply:

During the first year of my Bachelors degree I had some difficulties (health issues and everything that goes with it, missed classes due to hospitalization, difficulty concentrating, feeling like crap half the time...). This resulted in passed but not great grades. My first year I have a GPA of 3.0 (on the german grading scale which goes from 1 best to 5 worst). But then the second year I have a GPA of about 1.3 (on the same grading scale). However calculating my GPA over the entire time (including next year) will probably not give me the greatest GPA.

Since my grades have improved significantly I am now wondering is it a better idea to give it a try and apply for next year entry (wich means handing in my grades before they are complete resulting in the bad grades having more effect) or would it be smarter to get my MSc first very probably with better grades and apply directly for a PhD progamm?

 

Are there any statistics as to which universities accepted with which grades over the last years? Because I really don't have any idea as to where I can apply with my grades. Estimating an overall german GPA of 1.7 to 1.9 for my Bachelors degree there are probably not many universities that would accept me, especially being an international student and thus making everything more complicated, right?

Like I said, I think my GPA in my masters degree will probably be higher (about 1.3 to 1.5 I guess taking into account my grades before [ok granted, that would be high school, so not the most reliable source but still^^] and after having been sick)...

So what do you think? When should I apply (of course I know that for admission to grad school they take more into account than just ones grades, however I think they still are the most important factor.)

I would as well love to know at which universities I have a chance of being accepted, I have absolutely no idea where I stand a chance with my grades and where I don't. And I can't waste a bunch of money on application fees to universities where I never had the slightest chance of being accepted...

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Please just tell me what you think about timing of application and about schools where I have a chance. (my favourite programm so far would be Microbiology and Immunology at the University of Western Ontario: any chance?)

Maybe there is even someone here who went to grad school in Canada with a german degree and has some first hand experience?

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited May 19, 2013 by Nuya

[Nuya]

Realized I forgot something:

I said that Microbiology and Immunology at Western was my favourite programm so far, but I feel that I need to explain that a little further. The programm sounds good, but there are good programms at other universities as well. I read that cost of living is lower in London Ontario than it is in the rest of Canada. So I think that would be nice not having so much trouble with money. However, if there is any chance of getting into a higher ranking university with my grades that would be great too. I am just always so unsure about my own grades. But thinking about it, they arent bad compared to others. I even got offered a job as a lab-tutor for the second semester students (which I really enjoy doing) without asking for it.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Nuya

[DeleteMePlease]

Hi,

 

I am a German Student too.

About the GPA: As far as I understand the German "gut" (2.0) is more or less GPA of 4.0. As students in Germany with 1.0 are very rare (are there any?), and in the US and Canada it is possible to have a GPA4.0.

 

About the 3 year bachelor: Keep in mind that the American bachelor can be compared partially to German "Kollegstufe". However, in Quebec there is something like the Kollegestufe in the form of the CEGEP Colleges, not sure how the requirements are over there.
Most of the universities I looked at state "4-year bachelor or an equivalent degree". So, a German 3-year bachelor should be fine. BUT, there are not only 3 year bachelors in Germany! Mine is 3.5 years (210 Credits).

 

Where to apply to: Don't think about admission chances that much. Think about what kind of research or subfield interests you. And then only apply to schools you see yourself at. Imo it does not make sense to apply to "safety schools" that you do not want to go to.

 

A last note: You can always ask if you fullfill the admission requirements, if you want to be on the safe side.

 

Hope I could help!

Edited May 19, 2013 by GermanStudent

[PetitJacques]

I'm not sure if I'm grasping your GPAs correctly (I am American) but it seems like you did not so well your first year, and then very well your second year and after? If that's the case, I would contact admissions or your POI directly at the schools you are interested in, and explain to them what happened. I think that since you had a legitimate reason for a poor semester/year, and have shown consistently strong work since, that that one year shouldn't cause huge problems in an otherwise strong application - as long as you give them an explanation! Good luck!

[nugget]

Nuya,

 

Some schools only calculate the last 2 years of full time study. So I would focus on applying to these universities if your first year will bring down your GPA.

 

Since London only has 1 university and you will probably want to apply to more schools, you should also consider Windsor, Hamilton (McMaster U), Montreal (McGill U and Concordia U - certain neighbourhoods in Montreal like Verdun or Cote-des-Neiges are cheap), anywhere in New Brunswick or Newfoundland. 

 

Saskatchewan and Manitoba were once very inexpensive, but I'm not sure if they still are, particularly since the economy has gotten stronger over the last few years in Saskatchewan. To get an idea of rental costs, check out websites like www.craigslist.com or www.kijiji.ca to compare typical rental fees in different cities. Some universities also include a free monthly bus pass in the tuition fees which can save you $60-75/mth. 

Edited May 20, 2013 by jenste

[Nuya]

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

@GermanStudent: i tried finding out about the different grading systems. I now found one university in Canada that has a grade conversion chart on their page. It is true that 1.0GPA is probably VERY rare in Germany (in my class we started with about 250 students, we now are about half of that and usually there is none to one person in the entire class that gets a 1.0 in the exam. The conversion table i found listed German grades up to 0.7 o.O Never heard of that grade. At least at my University it is not possible to get that grade. 100% gives you a 1.0 and nothing more than that. If your answers are more than they expected they still don't give credit for more than 100%. Anyways, I now have a way of calculating my GPA for at least that university to what seems to be a sufficiently reliable point.

 

I have now compiled a list of all universities I could find that are not too small. Then I crossed off those where financial support seemed to be very limited and tuition fees very high. Since I don't have any savings to speak of I will need financial support via the university I apply to.

Sources of financial support from Germany are very limited since I don't plan on coming back here. They usually only fund semesters abroad or maybe even whole degrees but one has to agree to come back after obtaining the degree. I dont want to do that^^

(If you have different knowledge about that please let me know )

 

@PetitJacques: yes you got that right about my GPAs. My first year wasnt great but after that consistantly high grades. Thanks for encouraging me to simply ask. Usually I think about everything from each and every perspective to excess and then I end up with nothing but a headache. Usually because I don't want to bother the people responsible. But usually it is the fastest and most effective way to just ask or explain the situation.

 

@jenste: I realized that some schools do that (just use the last two years), but the problem is that my BSc only takes 3 years. Therefore I will apply after 2 1/2 years of study and still have some of the bad grades counted towards my GPA. However, I calculated my GPA for the one university that offeres a detailed conversion chart on their webpage and I found my GPA to be above the minimum requirements taking into account the one bad semester, the good one after that and ficticious grades estimated using my grades before getting sick and after (not very reliable...). I get something around 3.6 on that conversion chart where the minimum requirements for that particular university is 3.0 (university of Manitoba). But I can't just take the GPA conversion I got from that webpage and apply it to other universities, because the grading system is different even within Canada, so... -.- There are on the same page conversion charts for other provinces in Canada and I will check them out next, but that doesn't mean that all universities apply the same system.

 

Something else: How "valuable" is previous experience as for example lab-tutor for younger students (especially in terms of securing funding maybe through TAs)? Because without financial support I won't be able to attend university in Canada, regardless of getting accepted. (I currently have a position as a tutor and plan on reapplying next semester)

I switched from studying physics to studying biology after the first semester. But during the first semester I briefly (3 1/2 months) held a position in a lab in the Max-Planck research institute for the science of light (which of course I didn't keep after switching to biology). Will it rather help my application to mention this or would it more likely hurt my application? It was not long that I worked there and it was in a very different field of science. But since I will need to state that I studied physics for one semester before switching to biology anyways (every postsecondary education regardless of being awarded a degree or not).

I wouldnt even know where to put this "work experience"... Since not all universities require a CV to be submitted with the application.

 

Hopefully getting the degree will be easier than applying for it   (just kidding^^)

Edited May 20, 2013 by Nuya

[DeleteMePlease]

I just found another page saying that a German B- (2.5) is an American A.

 

http://www.wes.org/gradeconversionguide/index.asp

[Arcanen]

Note: this is all in reference to US schools, but I am assuming Canadian schools have similar practices.

 

Consider submitting a WES transcript in lieu of (or if necessary, in addition to) your regular transcript. That'll demonstrate right away that performance that might seem subpar is actually still pretty good. Though nly some schools will allow you to submit these. I had similar issues when applying from my country. The ease and regularity with which US schools give out A's, perfect GPAs and raw marks >90% is insane. I studied abroad at two very highly ranked US schools, and work that would have gotten me 60% in my home country got me As in these US schools. It becomes so difficult to distinguish between excellent students and those who are merely good; everyone and their dog has high averages and perfect grades. The percentage averages thing in particular is a big problem, as "average" students get Bs with 85% scores and "good students" are getting As with only a few percentage points higher (even though these few percentage points represent a fairly large gulf in performance). I expect this is one reason why the school one goes to in the US matters so much more than other countries; when everyone is bunched up so highly on the GPA scale, school becomes a (very messy, not necessarily accurate) measure used to rank students.

 

Unfortunately, in my experience US professors are unaware of exactly how lenient they are in comparison to other countries, and don't necessarily recognise good international marks for what they are as they have a tendency to just look at raw percentages if your transcript lists them and mentally think of thing in terms of US grades. You could have an application binned because you have an average of 70%, even though that might put you in the top 1-2% of your graduating class. Even worse is the lack of recognition of having higher averages which are even rarer.

 

All these schools say "they are familiar with international grading schemes" etc etc, but it's not the case (at least, they are very skeptical of exactly how much harder to achieve top marks are in other countries). Make sure you get your recommenders to clarify about the grading schemes used in your countries, and how much of an achievement your marks are. It is much better that your recommenders do this than you, because writing such things in the personal statement comes of as giving excuses.

 

This is not meant to come across as bitter because of personal failure; I got into a number of Ivies etc, but it is only because I went to great effort to make sure the grading schemes of my country were actually understood by admissions.

[zapster]

If your grades seem to look worse than they are in light of comparison to the American system, perhaps a rank letter, or something showing you were in the Top X%, from your University might help....

[nugget]

I have never attended an American university. But having attended a Canadian university, I believe As are less common.

 

For instance, in my department typically less than 10% of the class received an A+ in my classes. At times, no one got an A+. The class average (mean avg) of my classes always ranged somewhere between a B- and a B+.

 

Typically, 90-100% is an A+, 85-89% an A, 80-84% an A-, 77-79% a B+, etc... 60% is usually a passing grade of a D-.

 

I recall one student from NYC who complained that teachers graded lower at my university than they did at his old uni in NYC. However, grades were only lower in terms of percentage points and when they were converted into letter grades or on a 4.0 scale, his grades did not really change all that much.

 

One of my profs went to school in the US and she is the only one I knew who frequently gave extremely high grades. However, she did not use the grading scale I mentioned above and when converted from percentages into letters or on a 4.0 scale my grades were only slightly higher with her than with my other profs.

 

 I did not attend an Ivy league school and went to a mid-range uni in Canada and even the student given an award for the highest GPA in the entire university did not have a 4.0 average (whereas, I've heard some American students on this site claim to have a GPA of 4.0) . I think at Canadian universities, A-'s and A's are within the reach of hardworking students but A+'s are reserved for very special students and some teachers don't believe students should get A+'s because the work would need to be at the level of the professor to get that sort of grade. ex: In English literature, this is a very common attitude among profs. So if you aren't in mathematics, the sciences, or another field where test answers are clearly right or wrong with no room for debate, than A+'s can be off limits in some classes that rely heavily on essays or have other subjective means of performance evaluation.

 

Some schools in Canada do not have A+ and the highest grade attainable is an A. If this is the case, then in some cases the A might only be given for work that is considered professor-level quality, depending on who is teaching the course and what their opinion is on awarding the highest grades possible to the best students in the class.

 

More generally speaking, to attend grad school in Canada, one needs a minimum of a B+ to get accepted into an unfunded program and in some cases, an A-. If it is funded, I'd say a minimum of an A- (if the rest of the application is excellent), but often an A is needed or higher. Of course, there will be some variation depending on what school or field of study one is considering and how competitive the program is.

 

Note: this is all in reference to US schools, but I am assuming Canadian schools have similar practices.

 

Consider submitting a WES transcript in lieu of (or if necessary, in addition to) your regular transcript. That'll demonstrate right away that performance that might seem subpar is actually still pretty good. Though nly some schools will allow you to submit these. I had similar issues when applying from my country. The ease and regularity with which US schools give out A's, perfect GPAs and raw marks >90% is insane. I studied abroad at two very highly ranked US schools, and work that would have gotten me 60% in my home country got me As in these US schools. It becomes so difficult to distinguish between excellent students and those who are merely good; everyone and their dog has high averages and perfect grades. The percentage averages thing in particular is a big problem, as "average" students get Bs with 85% scores and "good students" are getting As with only a few percentage points higher (even though these few percentage points represent a fairly large gulf in performance). I expect this is one reason why the school one goes to in the US matters so much more than other countries; when everyone is bunched up so highly on the GPA scale, school becomes a (very messy, not necessarily accurate) measure used to rank students.

 

Unfortunately, in my experience US professors are unaware of exactly how lenient they are in comparison to other countries, and don't necessarily recognise good international marks for what they are as they have a tendency to just look at raw percentages if your transcript lists them and mentally think of thing in terms of US grades. You could have an application binned because you have an average of 70%, even though that might put you in the top 1-2% of your graduating class. Even worse is the lack of recognition of having higher averages which are even rarer.

 

All these schools say "they are familiar with international grading schemes" etc etc, but it's not the case (at least, they are very skeptical of exactly how much harder to achieve top marks are in other countries). Make sure you get your recommenders to clarify about the grading schemes used in your countries, and how much of an achievement your marks are. It is much better that your recommenders do this than you, because writing such things in the personal statement comes of as giving excuses.

 

This is not meant to come across as bitter because of personal failure; I got into a number of Ivies etc, but it is only because I went to great effort to make sure the grading schemes of my country were actually understood by admissions.

Edited July 3, 2013 by jenste

[DeleteMePlease]

Hi Nuya,

 

have you already checked with the schools wheter they accept your 3-year bachelor?

 

I had contact with one (University of North Carolina) so far that told me they normally do not accept 3-years bachelors. They told me that because I did the 13-year Abitur and my bachelor takes 3.5 years they can make an exception. 

 

They also weren't aware of the fact that we switched from diploma to the bachelor/master system.

 

I wonder if other schools accept German bachelors.

Edited July 17, 2013 by GermanStudent

[Nuya]

Thanks for the update.

I contacted three schools weeks ago. I only heard back from one of them. They wrote a very incomplete email telling me something along the lines of "we accept the bologna 3 year bachelor" (at least if i filled in the missing half of the half sentence long email correctly -.-)... Never heard back from the other two... That really doesnt make me trust the whole process...

I have started looking into universities in the UK. So far I have found a lot more detailed and usefull information concerning (international) admission requirements on their webpages.

But maybe I will try contacting one or two other schools in the US.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Nuya