Placement Rates

[semicolon2013]

Is there any source that can tell me the tenure track placement rates of various programs in some consistent way (for example, what percent of graduates have found tenure track jobs within 5 years of graduating).  Some programs provide such information on their website, others simply list places their grads have found jobs.  I'm finding it very hard to compare schools based on placement rates.  What do you all think?

[Roquentin]

I recommend that you contact the grad chairs in the departments you're interested in. They should know (if they don't, well, that's another story). Further, they should be able to answer any other questions you have.

[semicolon2013]

I am just worried about contacting professors about information that might possibly be found elsewhere, which is why I wanted to check.

[Datatape]

Part of the job of the graduate director is to have that information available.  Trust me, you aren't annoying them (and if you are, then that's likely a sign you don't want to go to this particular institution).  A good graduate director will be able to rattle off placement rates from the top of her head and know both where her past students went and what kind of position they acquired (Assistant Professor, Instructor, Adjunct, etc.).  Now, with that said, if a school provides an up-to-date list on the website, take that as it is and don't bother contacting the grad director.  If there is no such list, fire off an email.  Explain that you're interested in the program and you were curious as to the placement rates.  As always when emailing a DGS, be polite and gracious at all times but don't feel like you're being a pest; this is something that's just part of the job.  Graduate directors are expected to be able to deal with incoming questions from potential students all the time.

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

I believe this article has been posted before on gradcafe, but I thought I'd share it again here. Interesting perspective on placement rates. This article made me re-think caring about them and instead I focus on rank of the program and fit. 

 

http://chronicle.com/article/An-Open-Letter-From-a-Director/64882/

Edited June 13, 2013 by BunnyWantsaPhD

[Phil Sparrow]

I believe this article has been posted before on gradcafe, but I thought I'd share it again here. Interesting perspective on placement rates. This article made me re-think caring about them and instead I focus on rank of the program and fit. 

 

http://chronicle.com/article/An-Open-Letter-From-a-Director/64882/

 

This essay is useful in pointing out that placement rates really don't matter. What you do want to ask about includes:

in the past 5-7 years,

- how many PhDs did you put on the market? 

- Where and to what were they applying?

- How many have gotten jobs?

- What kinds of jobs did they get? (<-- this is a biggie. Were the jobs academic? If so, were they TT, postdoc, adjunct, etc? If alt-ac, what types?)

- If they got TT jobs, what kind? (That is, high teaching/low research, R1, etc?)

- Where? (<-- Also a biggie; relates to previous question.)

- How long were those who have gotten jobs on the market?

- If applicable, and more specifically, how many seasons did they spend on the market for TT jobs?

- What fields were they in?

- Who were their diss directors? 

 

Moot are stats that address the above questions but date from before the last half-decade or so. Don't believe anyone who tells you that their crappy placements are just a factor of the recession and they expect them to improve in the future (whenever that is). Expect the current academic climate to be the new normal, whether or not the global/American economy returns to its pre-recession health.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Phil Sparrow

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

Those are all good questions, but it just seems unlikely that many programs would be able to answer them. That might tell you a lot about a particular program and make you want to decide to go elsewhere, but I think drilling a director of graduate studies about those types of statistics isn't going to get you anywhere fast. 

 

I'm not saying that placement rates don't matter. I will say that fit, along with ranking of the program, is more important. (not trying to insinuate that you're arguing otherwise). 

 

FYI, I think I'm just getting cynical about this whole process...

[somethinbruin]

Those are all good questions, but it just seems unlikely that many programs would be able to answer them. That might tell you a lot about a particular program and make you want to decide to go elsewhere, but I think drilling a director of graduate studies about those types of statistics isn't going to get you anywhere fast. 

 

I'm not saying that placement rates don't matter. I will say that fit, along with ranking of the program, is more important. (not trying to insinuate that you're arguing otherwise). 

 

FYI, I think I'm just getting cynical about this whole process...

 

This is just my anecdotal experience, but at the interviews I had, the graduate directors were completely able to answer most of Sparrow's questions easily. We addressed them in the context of professionalization, and how the school prepares candidates for the job market. This was all in the context of our general discussion, so it didn't feel like I was grilling them (at least not to me).

 

At the school I ultimately chose, the graduate director pulled up a massive spreadsheet on his computer that tracked graduates' applications, interviews, offers, and acceptances, along with the details of those acceptances (adjunct, full or part time, TT, postdoc, etc.) It really helped me to know that they weren't inflating their numbers and was a big part of my decision. I could see that they regularly placed graduates in the types of positions I wanted, and that they were invested in helping graduates get TT jobs within the first two employment cycles after they matriculated. 

 

At the other two schools, they were both very realistic about their placement rates. One point-blank said their two most recent years had been very, very disappointing with regard to placement, but that the graduating class already had some TT offers in hand so things were looking up. All three schools were able to clearly articulate the jobs graduates got and how they navigated the academic job market.

 

Lord knows the process is more than enough to make someone cynical, but I hope it doesn't stop you from asking questions. I genuinely think that graduate directors want to help applications and admitted students make the decision that is right for them, this includes addressing concerns about the job market after graduation. It doesn't hurt to ask a few of these questions, as long as you do it in a cordial way.

[Datatape]

I had both a similar and dissimilar experience to somethinbruin.  The DGS at the school I ended up choosing was very on top of things, gave me data off the top of her head without needing to refer to it back in her office, and had information clearly spelled out.  A very strong point in their favor was the fact that in year five, all PhD students go through a series of workshops and mock interviews set up by the department to prepare you for the MLA interviews and the job market; this is one of the reasons Nevada has the stellar placement rate it does - the faculty and administration work extremely hard to get you ready for going out on the market.

 

The only other school I visited had a DGS who did not know the placement rates of his graduates (even when in his office at his computer, which showed me he didn't keep track of it), had only a couple of faculty who did preparatory work for the market with students (one of whom was their newest hire), and nobody was able to tell me where the students who got jobs were going.  A well-prepared DGS and faculty who engage with their students on all levels, not just when you're in their class or working for them as a TA or RA, can make an enormous difference in you landing on your feet after you graduate.

[Romanista]

If contacting the school directly does not work or if you don't trust the Director of Graduate Studies, there is another way. If the program lists recent dissertations just search for the name of those who have defended and graduated. Like..."John Doe" AND professor AND university...if these people are employed in academia they are bound to have some kind of digital footprint. Also, if the department does not list recent dissertations you can still find them in some university library sites that keep track of them, or else on ProQuest if you have access to that.

 

The only problem with this method is that sometimes it won't tell you if the newly hired graduate is in a tenure track position or not.

[Phil Sparrow]

I had both a similar and dissimilar experience to somethinbruin.  The DGS at the school I ended up choosing was very on top of things, gave me data off the top of her head without needing to refer to it back in her office, and had information clearly spelled out.  A very strong point in their favor was the fact that in year five, all PhD students go through a series of workshops and mock interviews set up by the department to prepare you for the MLA interviews and the job market; this is one of the reasons Nevada has the stellar placement rate it does - the faculty and administration work extremely hard to get you ready for going out on the market.

 

The only other school I visited had a DGS who did not know the placement rates of his graduates (even when in his office at his computer, which showed me he didn't keep track of it), had only a couple of faculty who did preparatory work for the market with students (one of whom was their newest hire), and nobody was able to tell me where the students who got jobs were going.  A well-prepared DGS and faculty who engage with their students on all levels, not just when you're in their class or working for them as a TA or RA, can make an enormous difference in you landing on your feet after you graduate.

 

Sometimes DGSs don't know this stuff because they have very little to do with placement. If the DGS doesn't have firm information for you, ask the placement director or her equivalent.

[pinkrobot]

This is just my anecdotal experience, but at the interviews I had, the graduate directors were completely able to answer most of Sparrow's questions easily. We addressed them in the context of professionalization, and how the school prepares candidates for the job market. This was all in the context of our general discussion, so it didn't feel like I was grilling them (at least not to me).

 

Yes, in my experience, DGSes were happy to talk about placement.

 

But I think something to consider is appropriate timing--in the case of these positive anecdotes (as well as my own experience), applicants ask these questions either during interviews or post-acceptance correspondence/visits. My two cents: I don't think applicants should be shy about asking questions that directly affect them, but I do think there are good times and bad times for those questions, and I am not entirely sure that "before you apply" is a good time. While I understand the desire to use this information for narrowing down your list, I might suggest that you work independently for now (I like Romanista's suggestion), and save Phil Sparrow's (really good) questions for a later stage.

[ProfLorax]

Hopefully, this information should soon be public knowledge. The Chronicle is starting a web-based, crowd-sourced database titled "The PhD Placement Project." 

 

http://chronicle.com/blogs/phd/2013/06/18/welcome-to-the-ph-d-placement-project/