PhD/MA after JD

[Legal Sociologist]

Hi everyone, 

 

I am currently a second year law student and am interested in possibility getting a Ph.D after finishing my JD. In undergrad, my sociology major concentration was in social inequality and the effects that the legal system can have on class mobility. When I began law school, I wanted to pursue this interest by working as a public interest attorney after graduation. This summer, I am doing a public interest internship in an impoverished area and have noticed certain trends that I would like to research and learn more about. My tentative plan would be to apply to grad school, get in and then take the bar exam the following year in the state where I'm going to grad school so I can take cases pro-bono as time allows (or if there are gaps in my funding and I need to supplement my income somehow). 

 

My eventual hope would be to use my JD to influence my research and also broaden my ability to make a difference in the field (since I could actually represent clients). My question however is how law school grades would factor into the process. My 1L grades weren't particularly high but my undergrad grades (particularly in my major area) were very strong. I'm much better at researching and not as good at the "one exam and you're done" format of law school. My best grades in undergrad were in research and project heavy courses. 

 

Thank you for your help

[amlobo]

I'm starting a sociology PhD program this fall, and I was a practicing attorney beforehand, so perhaps I can provide some insight.  My law school grades were not stellar... I had a little over a 3.3 (though I did have some academic awards, law journal, and a law journal publication, so perhaps that helped?).  And, I got in to multiple programs.  I did have a reasonably strong application otherwise and was able to explain how my legal education was an asset, which I think is the main thing you need to do with having a JD.  Law school is incredibly different from grad school, and I think adcomms know that.  So, I really don't think law school grades are that relevant.  I would simply point out where you excelled and how that pertains to grad school.  I focused very much on my background in the subject matter I wanted to study (education).

 

The experience of law school itself is the asset, in my opinion, as it gives you a new way of thinking and improves your analytical skills.  Many profs I talked to said they thought the analytical and persuasive nature of legal education prepares students very well for a career in sociological research.  One prof told me that one of the hardest things for grad students to grasp is understanding how to write for your audience, which is incredibly important in getting published; you need to be persuasive but also simply be able to comprehend how to approach a topic to make it appealing to your target audience.

 

Ok, that more than answered your question, but I hope it helps!  Feel free to PM me if you have other questions.  I found this site to be incredibly helpful when I applied, so good luck to you!

[Angua]

I'm also a JD-turned-PhD, although I'll be studying social psychology in the fall.  In addition to amlobo's very good response, which I think is spot on, let me add some food for thought.

 

First, start thinking about what kind of research setting you want to be in.  You mention that you want to influence the field, which is fantastic, but you don't say whether you'd want to be in a professional research setting (i.e., a non-profit or think tank) or an academic setting.  If academics, do you want to be a law professor? Or a sociology professor? Or something else?  You certainly don't have to decide now (or even before you apply to grad school), but if you have some sense of where you're going, it's easier to shape your path to get there.  And the path that will make you a really strong candidate for sociology faculty may not be the same path that would make you a really strong law faculty candidate, for example.

 

Next, as a rising 2L (that's how I read your post -- I assume you've just completed your first year?), you still have a lot of time to do things that will make the PhD application process easier for you.  Given your interests, you'll probably gravitate toward these things anyway, but just in case, here's what I recommend to any JD student who was interested in a social science PhD:

• Take any opportunity you can to study empirical methods.  If your school offers a course or program in empirical studies, take it.  If you can take courses in other departments for credit, look for empirically-driven sociology courses that interest you and take one or more of those.  This will not only give you some tools for future use, but it will show on your transcripts as demonstrated interest in research methods.
• Get to know your professors, especially if you have profs around who are doing work that relates to your interest.  You will need letters of recommendation, and it would be great to get those from profs who are in the law & sociology realm, but it would also just be good to ensure that you have several law profs who can say more about you than how prepared you were for class.  Consider independent study (see below, too), and talk to sympathetic professors about your interest in sociology and empirical research.  They will have ideas and connections for you -- even those who may not seem to know anything about your field may have friends in sociology or other good ideas, so don't write anyone off.  If you think you want to go into legal academics, you can also think of this as starting your professional network now.  It's a small world.
• Take any opportunity you can to write, especially about empirical research and/or sociology topics.  When you have a paper to write (or a law review note/comment to write), try to find a topic that fits into your long-term interests.  For example, you might apply existing "pure" sociology research to a legal question.  This will give you a place to start acquiring knowledge in your field, and it may also lead to publication opportunities, which you should be looking for.  Let your professors know about your interests and aspirations, and see if you can turn class projects into law review articles -- independent study projects are especially good for this.  If you are lucky enough to be able to do your own empirical research as part of a class or independent study, be sure to look for publication opportunities for that, too!

One last thought, on the bar exam.  If you're going to take it, I would strongly urge you to think about taking the bar the summer after 3L year rather than waiting until after your first year of PhD.  For one thing, everything will be much more fresh in your mind.  You're going to spend your first year of a PhD immersed in sociology -- by the end of that year, doctrinal law will likely feel lightyears away.  More importantly, though, your first year of PhD will likely not give you enough time to study for the bar.  Not only will the year itself be incredibly busy (with classes, new research, adjusting to a new place, etc.), but your first year summer isn't really time off - most programs expect you to work on a project and/or write a paper.  Bar study tends to be all-consuming, if not of your time then certainly of your mental energy.  You will know what PhD program you're heading to by April 15 -- that should be sufficient time to register for the bar exam (though you may be paying more than if you were able to register earlier).  If you can swing it, I really think that's the time to do it.

 

Hope that helps! Good luck to you, and feel free to PM me as well.

[Legal Sociologist]

Thanks everyone for the help! (And sorry for it taking 3 months for me to post in here again)

 

My eventual hope is to work for a policy think tank or research institute. I am working on a sociological issue for my upper level legal writing requirement so it has helped me refine my research interests substantially. I am interested in how rural poverty affects access to government sponsored institutions and how policy can be used to shape that. For example, impoverished rural people may have a more difficult time acquiring IDs for voting purposes in states that have passed statutes requiring them. The courts have held that this passes strict scrutiny because states have a compelling interest in preventing voter fraud, but they haven't addressed how to ensure that people who often live 45 minutes to an hour away from a DMV can get one. People in impoverished rural areas also often have to learn in substandard educational facilities and unlike their urban peers, often do not have culturally enriching activities nearby. A disadvantaged school in New York or Boston can take field trips to museums, whereas a disadvantaged school in Mississippi cannot. How can policy be used to address this disparity? Some courts (ex. the New Hampshire Supreme Court) have held that education funding should be equitable throughout the state, while others have held that the local property tax funding model is fine.  I find the interplay between poverty and governmental institutions and policies to be interesting.

 

My best grades 1L year were in Con Law and a class where we look at the structure of regulatory agencies and I'm currently in Con Law II and Legislation. Now that I'm done with the 1L required curriculum, I am focusing on taking classes that allow me to gain knowledge that will be useful in my later research.

 

I am also getting mixed reviews from friends when I pitch the idea. A lot of people think that it'd be a waste to spend another 5+ years in school, but I would only be 30-31 when I get my Ph.D.

[Legal Sociologist]

I just wanted to bump this up with an update. Since the post, I've been working as an RA with a professor who lets me do research in my subfield and with whom I have a good personal relationship. I have also taken multiple classes that have allowed me to conduct research that is relevant to my interests. A couple of professors have told me that my interests will lead me to academia with one directly pushing me towards a Ph.D. I've also used the past year to refine my research interests.

 

As for grades? My grades in "legal doctrine" classes are average at best but I get As in classes that allow me to conduct research in what I'm interested in. I'm a terrible exam taker and the whole "your entire grade depends on one exam" thing really screws with me. I'll need to explain this somehow I assume.   

[fancypants09]

I'm also a JD/attorney hoping to become a PhD, but in a completely different field (literature), but thought I'd share some things I learned while preparing for, and completing, my PhD applications this year. 

 

A bit about me so that you can put my two cents in context: I graduated from law school five years ago, and worked as corporate in-house abroad for just over four years before quitting this summer to focus on my applications. I was very lucky to find a lecturer position at a university, also outside of the US, so I taught in the fall and will be teaching again in the spring while I await my results. I applied once to graduate school post-JD in a completely different field; I studied history and poli sci in college and applied to an MA in IR after law school, thinking of eventually getting a PhD in IR/political theory. I applied and was accepted to two different programs and deferred for two years while I worked. After working for a bit, I decided that I wasn't interested in going down that particular academic route, but kept on exploring other career options as I knew that I couldn't stay in the corporate grind for the rest of my professional life. I decided to return to literature because I've always been passionate about the field. Again, I was extremely lucky in that I had completed some advanced coursework in my college years, though I didn't major in the field. 

 

A few things you want to keep in mind as you prepare:

 

1. Writing Sample

Many POIs and my old college professors underlined the importance of the writing sample. As a previous poster mentioned, law school and graduate school---even in the social sciences---are fundamentally different. Three years of legal education really does change the way you think, write, and speak. I had to write a brand new writing sample for my applications this time around and the first couple of drafts read like briefs or legal memos rather than literary analysis or criticism. When the time comes to work on your writing sample, be sure to read classic and recent scholarship in your field---sociology---and be sure that your writing sample reads like a sociology paper and not like a legal one. 

 

2. Numbers (GPA/GRE)

Like one of the previous posters, I had very average grades in law school. I'm not sure how those are going to figure into my applications this time around, but they definitely did not hinder me from getting into MA programs four years ago (FWIW, I applied to The Fletcher School at Tufts and the Geneva Graduate Institute). I should also say that I was on the law review at my school, co-published an article with a professor I RA'ed for, and participated in two poster presentations. I also had very high GRE scores (V 169, M 164, W 5.0), so those may have helped. I took the GREs right after I found out I passed the bar exam, and riding on the post-bar-passing high definitely made studying for the GRE a breeze. 

 

All of this to say: Even if law school works differently, and even if you don't want that law-firm job, you should try to get the highest grades possible. Same for GRE scores. (But I'm sure you knew that---after all, you're in law school! )

 

3. Work Experience

I don't think this matters too much if you're applying to an MA; your summer experiences that show an ongoing interest in your intended field of study in graduate school should be more than sufficient. It may be different if you're applying for a PhD, though, especially if you're going to try to persuade the Ad Comms that your training as an attorney will somehow be influential to your research. 

 

There are pros and cons to working before more school, but I feel like there are more pros than cons. First, they really test your desire to go into a particular academic field. I was pretty sure about going into IR when I deferred to work, but working made me realize that I would be able to have more real-world impact in the field than in the ivory tower. Second, it never hurts to earn money and to put some aside before going into graduate studies. Third, and perhaps most important from the legal side, having worked as an attorney for a year or two will give you credibility with the attorneys, even if you never decide to practice law/work in the legal field again. This is especially important if you ever want to fall back on your law license to earn money during graduate school if it comes to that. Simply put, legal employers are more likely to hire someone with experience than someone without, even if that person has a license.

 

4. Bar Exam

Agreed with previous posters who advised for you to take the bar after your 3L year. You want to get those out of the way when you're in the law mode. For me, the bar exam was perhaps the most challenging exam I've ever prepared for, but having survived through the process I feel like I could take on pretty much anything, academically. Obviously I've not started (or even been accepted into) a PhD program yet, but from what I hear from friends the first year of coursework sounds incredibly daunting and I would not want to spend my summer after an exhausting year prepping for the bar exam. 

 

Hope my experience would be somewhat helpful to you, and that most importantly, hope I didn't hijack this thread! 

Edited December 30, 2014 by fancypants09

[Legal Sociologist]

Your advice was really helpful. I'm prepping for the bar exam this summer and have a one year fellowship that will keep me busy while I apply for graduate programs so I'll have at least a year of post-graduate legal experience. In most of my legal academic writing though, I've tried to weave in sociological literature. I usually take a case and piece of literature that I really like and relate the two. It's probably good practice and it gives me a solid writing sample.

 

My target school does not accept students directly into the Ph.D and requires an MA first so I'll likely apply there for that. It's not an elite program but they have faculty that I like and are doing research that I would really like to be apart of. I've also been studying for the GRE off and on since the summer. 

 

I'm excited to start the application process. 

[amlobo]

Your advice was really helpful. I'm prepping for the bar exam this summer and have a one year fellowship that will keep me busy while I apply for graduate programs so I'll have at least a year of post-graduate legal experience. In most of my legal academic writing though, I've tried to weave in sociological literature. I usually take a case and piece of literature that I really like and relate the two. It's probably good practice and it gives me a solid writing sample.

 

My target school does not accept students directly into the Ph.D and requires an MA first so I'll likely apply there for that. It's not an elite program but they have faculty that I like and are doing research that I would really like to be apart of. I've also been studying for the GRE off and on since the summer. 

 

I'm excited to start the application process. 

 

A small word of advice - when you apply to your target program(s), ask them how your JD will be treated, as it is NEVER on the website anywhere that I have ever seen, lol.  For my program, they require a master's first, but I found out after being admitted that my JD would "count" as a master's since it was a more advanced degree (for degree progress and funding).  So, I got to skip doing a master's thesis and was considered a PhD student right away.  It is only taking a semester off my time to degree, but anything helps!  

[Legal Sociologist]

A small word of advice - when you apply to your target program(s), ask them how your JD will be treated, as it is NEVER on the website anywhere that I have ever seen, lol.  For my program, they require a master's first, but I found out after being admitted that my JD would "count" as a master's since it was a more advanced degree (for degree progress and funding).  So, I got to skip doing a master's thesis and was considered a PhD student right away.  It is only taking a semester off my time to degree, but anything helps!  

 

That's not a bad idea. I did see that some programs (usually policy oriented though) will treat a JD as a "relevant Master's" and give you 10-15 course credits, which amounts to a semester. Any little bit DOES help though. 

[Angua]

In most of my legal academic writing though, I've tried to weave in sociological literature. I usually take a case and piece of literature that I really like and relate the two. It's probably good practice and it gives me a solid writing sample.

 

My writing sample was my law review note, which was based on applying empirical literature in my PhD field -- very similar to what you've been writing, it seems.  It worked great.