4th Year Grades?

[okmijn22]

I know that 1st, 2nd, 3rd year grades are important for grad school but how important are 4th year grades since many of the programs begin applications in November of 4th year and when you send transcipts, not even the first semester grades are out yet. Do the universities eventually have access to these grades and if yes are they important?

 

Also, does this equally apply for professional masters and research phds?

 

Thanks.

[Kwest]

I graduated before I applied, so naturally all my grades came into play...but I know that often times acceptances are conditional upon receipt of final transcripts if you haven't yet completed your degree.

[TakeruK]

Schools cannot access any grades that you don't send to them via an official or unofficial transcript. So, if they wanted your grades before your first semester grades are finalized, then they will not see them nor consider them in your application. Even if you are applying to your own undergrad school, they won't see your grades if you don't submit a transcript from your own school. Some Canadian schools usually have deadlines in mid January or early February so that they will see the first semester grades. 

 

Like the above person said, if you have already graduated and are in e.g. a masters program, then they will see all of your undergrad grades and whatever masters grades are completed at time of application. So, yes, it's the same situation for everyone.

 

Finally, although the 4th year grades aren't necessarily used in determining admission, the school will still ask for a final final transcript (that indicates you actually graduated) before you can start your grad program. If your GPA has gone down, it is normally okay unless your admission letter specifically required a certain GPA. In most cases, they don't and they only require that you still graduate with the degree you wrote in your application. However, these final grades can still make a difference when you apply for fellowships etc. in grad school.

[okmijn22]

Thanks for the responses.

Another question is that some schools look for the fact that you have taken some particular courses in considering to enroll you. So if you do not take them 2nd, 3rd, year will they see that you will take it forth year. In other words, is it better to have the most relevant courses in 2nd and 3rd year?

Edited July 21, 2013 by okmijn22

[TakeruK]

Thanks for the responses.

Another question is that some schools look for the fact that you have taken some particular courses in considering to enroll you. So if you do not take them 2nd, 3rd, year will they see that you will take it forth year. In other words, is it better to have the most relevant courses in 2nd and 3rd year?

 

Are you talking about courses that are normally 4th year courses? Or are these the lower level courses that you are expected to take in 2nd/3rd year for your degree? I think it would be better for an applicant to demonstrate that they have already completed the lower level requirements when they apply to grad school, but if these courses will be completed in 4th year, then it's not that bad. If these are normally 4th year courses, then you don't have to worry about getting them completed earlier.

 

Normally, I wouldn't think it's a worthwhile idea to go out of your way to complete requirements ahead of schedule. But if you have space in your schedule and think you will do really well in the course, then it might be worth it to complete a 4th year course in 3rd year so that you can show off your strong grade. But remember that one grade doesn't really make a huge difference in overall GPA. Also, another advantage of completing it in 3rd year is that you can take the grad level version in 4th year, if your school allows that. This would only be a good idea if you are certain that this course is relevant to your graduate education goals. Otherwise, I'd say to just wait until grad school to take the grad course (so that you don't have to pay for it).

 

Finally, I would like to point out that many of my applications asked me what courses I plan to be taking but won't show up in my transcript at time of application. So this is a chance to show the admissions committee that you actually will be taking that important 4th year introductory course etc.

[okmijn22]

So right now I am Math/Stats/CS concentration and in graduate school I want to focus on financial math. Some subjects that I have to study for my math degree are third year courses like abstract algebra and topology. They are interesting in their own right but not very relevant in what I want to do in graduate school. So what I want to do in 2nd and 3rd is to take courses in Math/Stats/CS that will be relevant to what I will do in grad school (since that's what they admission commitee) sees anyways and then I will finish those other courses (by this time, probably passing is just enough?) in my forth year when the decision has already been made. In addition, in 2nd/3rd year I want to seek professors that are relevant to my field to do research as that will highlight my application.

So in short, courses that are relevant to grad school take in 2nd, 3rd year, and then in forth year, finish the irrelevant courses that are necessary for my undergrad degree.  

Edited July 24, 2013 by okmijn22

[Guest |||]

Often a school will send a conditional acceptance, pending that once your grades come out for fourth year, they are in line with past grades.

[TakeruK]

So right now I am Math/Stats/CS concentration and in graduate school I want to focus on financial math. Some subjects that I have to study for my math degree are third year courses like abstract algebra and topology. They are interesting in their own right but not very relevant in what I want to do in graduate school. So what I want to do in 2nd and 3rd is to take courses in Math/Stats/CS that will be relevant to what I will do in grad school (since that's what they admission commitee) sees anyways and then I will finish those other courses (by this time, probably passing is just enough?) in my forth year when the decision has already been made. In addition, in 2nd/3rd year I want to seek professors that are relevant to my field to do research as that will highlight my application.

So in short, courses that are relevant to grad school take in 2nd, 3rd year, and then in forth year, finish the irrelevant courses that are necessary for my undergrad degree.  

 

Does this mean you have just finished your first year of university/undergrad and are considering course selection for future years? If so, can you still change your concentration? The difference between a math major and financial math isn't too large right? I made a similar "size" change in the 3rd year of my degree. Or, is there no financial math degree? If you cannot change, then I think what you have outlined is one good plan (i.e. get more familiar with your research interest courses/profs sooner). I think it is especially important to get to know the profs in your research interest to get experience in that field. However, it might be a good idea to consider the following points:

 

1. How sure are you that you want to do financial math? I'm not saying this to question your interest but just to point out that many people's (including mine) interests evolve and change over time as they are exposed to more of their field. So, it might not be a great idea to completely devote your courses to basically complete a financial math degree in the first few years and then do the pure math requirements only later on. Maybe a mixture where you make sure you take the most important 2nd/3rd year math courses (the one that are pre-reqs for all 4th year math courses) in the 2nd/3rd year and take some of your electives as courses relevant to your research interest. Maybe this is what you meant anyways. 

 

2. If you stay in a math/stats/CS concentration, you want to demonstrate to the admissions committee that you are a competent math/stats/CS person. I don't think it's a good idea to neglect your actual major in favour of financial math. To me, financial math sounds like a multi-disciplinary field and I think a good strategy to succeed in these programs is to actually have a very strong foundation in one of the key skills (e.g. math) and then enter the field using your strong foundation to tackle the problems in the new multi-disciplinary field. For example, many students starting in Planetary Science come into the program with a Physics or Astronomy background (but not a lot of e.g. Earth sciences) and they can then use the tools they learn in Physics to work on problems like heat transfer through the Earth's mantle. You don't always have to have exactly the same undergrad concentration as grad school, especially if the grad school interest is multidisciplinary. So, if you are going to major in X, my opinion is that you would be much more attractive to grad school if you presented yourself as someone who is very well trained in X, but also have enough experience (research or courses) in field X-Y to make a good impact on X-Y using skills/perspective from X. That is, I'd encourage you to take courses in  your research interest sooner, but don't do it at the expense of weakening your original major too much.

 

 

Often a school will send a conditional acceptance, pending that once your grades come out for fourth year, they are in line with past grades.

 

I'm sure the experience is very different for each person, but I just want to say that in both my application cycles (MSc and PhD), I did not ever receive a conditional acceptance that stipulated that my final GPA must be near my application GPA. The only explicit requirement ever given was that I finish the degree that I said I was going to finish. I did get some vague conditions, like "your admission is subject to final approval from the Faculty of Graduate Studies upon receiving your final transcript", but this happens when there are University-wide minimums for incoming graduate students. However, in this case, the minimum test scores/GPAs etc. are generally much lower than the GPAs of those admitted (since the 'competitive GPA' is generally somewhat higher than the 'cutoff GPA'). 

 

Again, I'm not saying it never happens nor that my small sample size is indicative of the process in general, but I'm not sure that it is super common for schools to make this strong of a condition on your final final transcript. 

[Sigaba]

If you have conerns about how an admissions committee is going to interpret your transcript, you might consider using part of your SOP to provide an interperative framework.

 

If you follow this path, draw attention to the courses that you have taken and how they make you a stronger candidate for admission and do not worry so much about the courses you may have taken out of sequence.

[Arcanen]

So right now I am Math/Stats/CS concentration and in graduate school I want to focus on financial math. Some subjects that I have to study for my math degree are third year courses like abstract algebra and topology. They are interesting in their own right but not very relevant in what I want to do in graduate school. So what I want to do in 2nd and 3rd is to take courses in Math/Stats/CS that will be relevant to what I will do in grad school (since that's what they admission commitee) sees anyways and then I will finish those other courses (by this time, probably passing is just enough?) in my forth year when the decision has already been made. In addition, in 2nd/3rd year I want to seek professors that are relevant to my field to do research as that will highlight my application.

So in short, courses that are relevant to grad school take in 2nd, 3rd year, and then in forth year, finish the irrelevant courses that are necessary for my undergrad degree.  

 

I did electrical engineering as an undergrad and got into the top financial math programs (Columbia, Princeton and Stanford) without having done any financial math courses (or relevant financial industry experience). I think it is pretty standard judging from my success rate (3/6), the admissions websites of these programs, and the discussions I had with professors and other students in these programs.

 

In terms of previous coursework, having the fundamental skills in mathematics, modelling and programming (which, fortunately for me, is practically what electrical engineering is) is much more important than having previous finance knowledge (or even mathematical finance itself; experience in real analysis for example is more important than a course on pricing derivatives). In fact, maths/programming was often listed as a prerequisite for the programs I applied to wheras finance knowledge was not.

 

So I don't necessarily think it's a smart idea to throw your whole degree out of sequence in order to do the courses you think are relevant because you're probably wrong. I think it might be because skills are harder to pick up later on than knowledge. The fundamental maths and CS skills are harder to pick up later on than the financial theory that is reducible to the maths (and simple memorisation). Doing more classes on those fundamental skills is more important than simplified undergrad financial math classes (where the simplification occurs because the students don't necessarily have the necessary mathematical chops to do legit financial maths courses).

 

Sure though, it's important to show that you're interested in mathematical finance, but the way to do this is to do finance topics in your maths and cs project classes whenever you have the freedom to do so. This is particular true if you do some sort of honours/undergrad thesis.

[okmijn22]

Thanks again for the responses.

 

@TakeruK  Yes you are right, sorry I should have made it clear at the beginning that I just finished first year undergrad and in September I will be starting second year. The good thing about my university is that you can change your concentration any time in the sense that the degree matches the courses you take and not the other way around. There is a 'financial math' degree but there all the rigor of math is watered down and as Arcanen mentioned correctly.

 

"In terms of previous coursework, having the fundamental skills in mathematics, modelling and programming (which, fortunately for me, is practically what electrical engineering is) is much more important than having previous finance knowledge (or even mathematical finance itself; experience in real analysis for example is more important than a course on pricing derivatives)."

 

Regarding interest, I am pretty sure this is what I want to pursue in the future but I understand that interests could evolve over time so I am picking courses that are quite transferable. Another question I have is on the transcript, do the universities see what major/minor you have declared or only the courses that you have taken?

 

@ Sigaba Thanks, I will keep this in mind.

 

@ Arcanen I think you are enrolled in the programs that I want to go to so all the things that you have written I have all read before. But I think you misunderstood my posts. I have not taken or intend to take courses like finance as I understand they are not quite useful for this field. All the courses that I am taking are all quantitative courses. What I am saying is that I will taking courses like Time Series, Stochastic processes in 3rd year switching with abstract algebra and topology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Imaya]

Thanks for starting this topic. I had the same question! I've had a really tough three years of undergrad so far. My mom was diagnosed with cancer during my first year and she died last summer, just before my third year. My grades have been pretty good considering - I have a 3.6 gpa. But I know that I can earn better grades and I'm committed to do better this year. But I'm concerned I'm going to be judged on my gpa without the chance of showing that I can do better.