HKS and the Mountain Of Debt

[pepper84]

While I know no one knows yet about funding, hopefully we can have a discussion and perhaps some questions raised/answered about HKS and the value (or none) of taking on such a huge amount of debt. This topic has been discussed in smatters elsewhere, but I thought it might be good to cull the information in one place.

According to the HKS website, one can assume taking on around 120K total in debt over two years to finance living and education: http://www.hks.harvard.edu/degrees/sfs/ ... n/domestic. That is an INSANE amount of money for a public service degree. However, of course, its selling points have been fleshed out here quite a bit--incredible network, outstanding reputation, quant focus, research centers catering to a variety of interests, well-known and plugged-in faculty, etc. Additionally, there are some resources to help students pay back loans after graduation, particularly if you make 60k or below in the public sector and the current dean has made a commitment to reducing debt-load a priority (although who knows what the situation will be given current economic realities and the relatively small HKS endowment).

Is there anyone out there who absolutely knows they will be attending, no matter what the financial decision is on April 3, who would be willing to discuss why? Anyone who absolutely will not attend if they do not receive funding? Any current/former HKS students willing to discuss how they made an HKS education financially feasible? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

[therunaround]

I'm going. The only thing that would change my mind is if GPPI suddenly had a change of heart and offered my 18-20k/yr to go there. Super unlikely. I currently have 10k there.

I'm looking at about $120,000 of debt as well and going into public service for sure. I do not think it is crazy to absorb this sort of debt for Harvard. We are talking the creme de la creme here. Even more so than WWS, HKS is an institution! This is THE place to study public policy. It has unparalleled resources, faculty, historical significance, and students. I feel like this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and I'll be damned if $$ issues are going to stop me from doing what I want to do. There is always a way to work it out and many graduates from HKS find one. Afterall, the AVERAGE debt for HKS students is $68,000. Funding would be a pleasant surprise but I am not making a decision on it.

I would suggest you check out the student load income-based payment calculator at: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ibr.phtml

Based on a starting income of 55,000 and a 4% annual increase in salary, I expect to pay between $500 and $800 a month in payments over 10 years with the income based payment plan and have over $100,000 of interest/debt forgiven after 10 years. This is tough, but fine. I make around 42,000/yr now and find about $400 to put away every month. Also, the breadth of the debt forgiveness program influenced my decision. Any government or non-profit job is covered. One can work on the Hill for a few years, federal gov't, and then a think tank. It's easy to find qualifying jobs in DC.

Do you really want to turn this down?

[linden]

Does anyone know what percentage of HKS students receive a fellowship or scholarship award? (I posted this in the Hearing from HKS thread, but it was buried by other messages.)

I have nothing to contribute to this thread other than doubt.

[therunaround]

I have nothing to contribute to this thread other than doubt.

What is that supposed to mean?

[linden]

What is that supposed to mean?

That I am really torn. Like you, I feel like I cannot pass up HKS. Not only are the school's academic offerings unmatched by most schools. In addition, the education I will receive, the degree name, and the networking opportunities and alumni connections could help me accomplish my personal and professional objectives. Yet, the debt could also undermine my ability to attain those goals.

I wish I had your certainty, therunaround.

[therunaround]

I wish I had your certainty, therunaround.

"Certainty"," but perhaps "ignorance." But I will find a way to make this work. I have had luck in going through life this way. Literally the only thing that could hold me back from HKS is cost and it just seems wrong to me to let that sort of thing get in my way, especially if I can fund it through loans and forgiveness. Let me say, I have virtually no savings and no assistance from parents, friends, etc. I'm not wealthy. But to me, this sort of decision should not be about money. You only have one shot at this whole "life" thing and I am firmly set on following a course that isn't based on finances. Most of us are public service types. This may seem contradictory, but we are not in it for the money and so, I believe, our decisions should not be based on that. HKS offers me the best opportunity to place well on the Hill or at a federal agency (through the PMF program). I know that I would regret not accepting HKS for the rest of my life. I would always ask, "What if?" That's not how I want to live my life and I believe that these choices are foundations for future life decisions.

[zourah]

I do not think it is crazy to absorb this sort of debt for Harvard. We are talking the creme de la creme here. Even more so than WWS, HKS is an institution! This is THE place to study public policy. It has unparalleled resources, faculty, historical significance, and students. I feel like this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and I'll be damned if $$ issues are going to stop me from doing what I want to do.

Do you really want to turn this down?

Whoa here - really? I see you've posted in threads for SAIS and SIPA. Where else are you looking? Can you really honestly rank HKS in some mythical level all its own above these other top-tier programs? The IR ivory tower survey placed SAIS ahead of Kennedy, even.

Look, the Harvard name is big. I've come to realize that even more heavily in the past few days, when people who barely knew to be pleased when I got in at SAIS freaked out over the K school. But beyond that incredibly superficial wow factor, is there something that genuinely distinguishes it from your other programs?

So far, I don't have funding anywhere - I'll be taking on somewhere around $100,000 in debt no matter where I go, more or less. And yet I'm going to really go look at my other options also, because I'm not convinced that Kennedy is the epitome of everything I want. It's a very attractive option, but this post just makes me wonder how many people get caught up in the legend of Harvard and stop looking at the details of the programs.

Now, if you're looking at MPP programs (especially in anything other than IR), disregard this, as I have no understanding of their relative merits.

[therunaround]

Whoa here - really? I see you've posted in threads for SAIS and SIPA. Where else are you looking? Can you really honestly rank HKS is some mythical level all its own above these other top-tier programs? The IR ivory tower survey placed SAIS ahead of Kennedy, even.

...

Now, if you're looking at MPP programs (especially in anything other than IR), disregard this, as I have no understanding of their relative merits.

Fair enough. I should definitely clarify that I have become more interested in domestic issues since I applied to graduate programs. My school list is not entirely indicative of my interests. You are certainly correct that one must first consider their interest area. Personally, I would take SAIS over SIPA because of what I have heard about the SIPA students and faculty. It doesn't seem like the nicest place to study. SAIS had me very excited for a day (before the HKS admits went out) but I quickly realized that I was looking at how I could tailor the excellent IR education at SAIS to domestic positions. As I am interested in environmental and energy policy, this is not entirely unrealistic because these of global issues.

My comments, however, pertain to my impression of HKS as a stepping ground to public service in Washington and, within that focus, to primarily domestic issues. There is a mythical nature to HKS, no question. I think it is deserved and, perhaps more importantly, so do the people I've spoken to in Washington. I am told that it is an incredible place to study and unlike any other.

[Sroek]

You guys have to accept HKS only if you are certain that the program caters specifically to you in almost every aspect!If this is the case, borrow the money and you will be able to pay it back coming from HKS. Money comes and goes and your dreams are priceless. I'm in the same situation as you guys and I have a wife and two kids. I won't be going to HKS, but I'll be at GTown's MSFS program and it suits me perfectly. I grew up poor in the streets of L.A., I never graduated from high school, went to a community college and a Cal State. I never gave up and borrowed to get through school. The quality of my life now has far exceeded my expectations growing up and there are so many unforeseen opportunities ahead for all of us. I know it is a chunk of money, but begin to look for funding for your second year as passionately as wanting to attend and make things happen for yourself. Think about it like a plot of land that will be worth more than 120k in ten or twenty years time. It is an investment that will eventually pay itself off. Be frugal with what you borrow, and be just as frugal when you graduate and you will be fine. But what do I know! Go with your heart and let your mind problem solve the money issue. You guys a bright enough to figure it out and you will. Good luck guys and if you need a connection in DC, I'll be there to help you. We need to create our own gradcafe network because you never know how we can help each other one day. We are going to lead this world so lets start working together now.

[therunaround]

You guys have to accept HKS only if you are certain that the program caters specifically to you in almost every aspect!If this is the case, borrow the money and you will be able to pay it back coming from HKS. Money comes and goes and your dreams are priceless. I'm in the same situation as you guys and I have a wife and two kids. I won't be going to HKS, but I'll be at GTown's MSFS program and it suits me perfectly. I grew up poor in the streets of L.A., I never graduated from high school, went to a community college and a Cal State. I never gave up and borrowed to get through school. The quality of my life now has far exceeded my expectations growing up and there are so many unforeseen opportunities ahead for all of us. I know it is a chunk of money, but begin to look for funding for your second year as passionately as wanting to attend and make things happen for yourself. Think about it like a plot of land that will be worth more than 120k in ten or twenty years time. It is an investment that will eventually pay itself off. Be frugal with what you borrow, and be just as frugal when you graduate and you will be fine. But what do I know! Go with your heart and let your mind problem solve the money issue. You guys a bright enough to figure it out and you will. Good luck guys and if you need a connection in DC, I'll be there to help you. We need to create our own gradcafe network because you never know how we can help each other one day. We are going to lead this world so lets start working together now.

Sounds like an excellent life story - you should write a book! Nothing like living like a grad student. On that note, I went to Tufts for undergrad and can promise you that you will struggle to spend 20k/yr on room and board unless you live in downtown cambridge. I think 66k is very very generous.

The point you guys make is right. HKS is only great if you think their program is right for you. Personally. I feel that I will benefit from the emphasis on leadership as I tend to be a quiet guy in some public settings. I also like that that core classes have different levels so that I take more strenuous stats and econ classes so as to better prepare me for public policy analysis. Finally, I like that you are pushed to cram in 18 classes with 8 electives. I believe I will graduate an expert in a specific field.

[jduds]

You guys have to accept HKS only if you are certain that the program caters specifically to you in almost every aspect!If this is the case, borrow the money and you will be able to pay it back coming from HKS. Money comes and goes and your dreams are priceless. I'm in the same situation as you guys and I have a wife and two kids. I won't be going to HKS, but I'll be at GTown's MSFS program and it suits me perfectly. I grew up poor in the streets of L.A., I never graduated from high school, went to a community college and a Cal State. I never gave up and borrowed to get through school. The quality of my life now has far exceeded my expectations growing up and there are so many unforeseen opportunities ahead for all of us. I know it is a chunk of money, but begin to look for funding for your second year as passionately as wanting to attend and make things happen for yourself. Think about it like a plot of land that will be worth more than 120k in ten or twenty years time. It is an investment that will eventually pay itself off. Be frugal with what you borrow, and be just as frugal when you graduate and you will be fine. But what do I know! Go with your heart and let your mind problem solve the money issue. You guys a bright enough to figure it out and you will. Good luck guys and if you need a connection in DC, I'll be there to help you. We need to create our own gradcafe network because you never know how we can help each other one day. We are going to lead this world so lets start working together now.

I don't think better words could have been said. It's hard to put a price on your dreams. If you think going to HKS puts you in the best place to make those dreams a reality then do what you have to do. If you don't then you know what you should do. At the end of the day, it's about putting yourself in the best position to do what you feel your mind and spirit compel you to do.

[therunaround]

what do you think about all this, pepper? You started it!

[zourah]

The point you guys make is right. HKS is only great if you think their program is right for you. Personally. I feel that I will benefit from the emphasis on leadership as I tend to be a quiet guy in some public settings. I also like that that core classes have different levels so that I take more strenuous stats and econ classes so as to better prepare me for public policy analysis. Finally, I like that you are pushed to cram in 18 classes with 8 electives. I believe I will graduate an expert in a specific field.

...and there's the synthesis. I just read that first post after having spent two days trying to explain to family/close friends why I was still bummed about getting WL at Walsh even after hearing from HKS - there seems to be a lot of magical thinking about Harvard as the perfect institution. So long as my fellow gradcafe denizens are evaluating rationally, I'm totally unsurprised that a good many will decide that HKS is their first choice...I just read that first post and saw the same words I'd been hearing from people who really don't understand these programs very well, and I'm sorry to have implied that anyone here wasn't carefully considering all options.

[therunaround]

...and there's the synthesis. I just read that first post after having spent two days trying to explain to family/close friends why I was still bummed about getting WL at Walsh even after hearing from HKS - there seems to be a lot of magical thinking about Harvard as the perfect institution. So long as my fellow gradcafe denizens are evaluating rationally, I'm totally unsurprised that a good many will decide that HKS is their first choice...I just read that first post and saw the same words I'd been hearing from people who really don't understand these programs very well, and I'm sorry to have implied that anyone here wasn't carefully considering all options.

No harm done, zourah. I have given this a great deal of thought, but I am also very honored and excited to be accepted at HKS. Sometimes my excitement gets the better of me.

[MCneelified06]

If someone has had a dream for his or her entire life to go to Harvard, just because of the name, I'm not going to say that that is silly or irrational. A dream is a dream.

However, if your goal is to get an amazing education in public policy, I would strongly dispute that HKS is in some sort of ethereal tier above all other schools. In fact, I have heard more doubts about the HKS program that many of the other top schools, including WWS and GSPP (sorry -- I didn't apply to NYC or DC schools so I don't really know too much about them).

In short, even if HKS offered me a full ride plus stipend, I would still go to WWS. I think it's the best program and I think it has the best reputation. Obviously, everyone will have his or her own opinion on this.

I've been trying to wrap my head around the debt question for a while now. Of course there are the practical implications of such a high debt burden -- and I will reiterate what I said on another thread that I do not believe public policy school is worth $120,000 regardless of the name. Harvard, shmarvard -- that is the cost of a house! This is a public service degree. I also think some of the monthly loan estimates I've seen floating around the Forums are very, very optimistic.

More than just the sticker shock, though, is what such a high debt burden means "in theory" for the relationship between the school and the student. With WWS it was very clear: We value you. We want you in the MPA class. We think you will make an outstanding public servant, and we know that your future success in this regard might be compromised if you have to assume high levels of debt. With HKS, the tone is more one of: This is Harvard. A Harvard education is expensive. We think you have incredible potential both as a public servant *and* also as a high earner. Let's partner to get you a Harvard education.

It's a different feeling, and for me, not really a good one. But I don't begrudge anyone for a dream!

[pepper84]

therunaround--

I have to say, HKS has been far and away my top choice since before even applying. When I started formulating a better idea of "what I want to do with my life" I was actually shocked to learn that HKS has a research center devoted exactly to that. Also, I'm originally from Boston and the idea of being close to my family again is just...amazing. I admit I actually cried when I got the acceptance--yes, dramatic, but also, just a huge culmination of effort over the past 3 years ...I was just shocked.

That being said, I'm still trying to justify the 120k price tag. I'm not sure it is justifiable-- though I really believe this institution will actually take two interests that seem disparate and meld them together in one cohesive career. I know I will never make a lot of money--and that's ok---but I also don't want debt to cast a larger-than-life shadow over all future decisions--buying a house, a car, pursuing a job, etc.

For right now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for April 3. And I've bought my flight for the April 10 event and am planning to sit down after I have a full picture of the financial implications involved in all the schools---and I will see if and how I can make HKS work.

[therunaround]

therunaround--

I have to say, HKS has been far and away my top choice since before even applying. When I started formulating a better idea of "what I want to do with my life" I was actually shocked to learn that HKS has a research center devoted exactly to that. Also, I'm originally from Boston and the idea of being close to my family again is just...amazing. I admit I actually cried when I got the acceptance--yes, dramatic, but also, just a huge culmination of effort over the past 3 years ...I was just shocked.

That being said, I'm still trying to justify the 120k price tag. I'm not sure it is justifiable-- though I really believe this institution will actually take two interests that seem disparate and meld them together in one cohesive career. I know I will never make a lot of money--and that's ok---but I also don't want debt to cast a larger-than-life shadow over all future decisions--buying a house, a car, pursuing a job, etc.

For right now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for April 3. And I've bought my flight for the April 10 event and am planning to sit down after I have a full picture of the financial implications involved in all the schools---and I will see if and how I can make HKS work.

Are you planning on government service or working for a non-profit? If so, I would encourage you to check out the income-based payment plan and the 10 yr debt forgiveness plan.

As to the claim that these debt payments are questionable...I don't know what to tell you, MCneelified06. There isn't much room for making stuff up here. There are loans, rates, and payment plans. There's not much to debate.

[therunaround]

Perhaps I should also add that I would definitely go to WWS over HKS if I had gotten in. Not because I think WWS is better, but because I think they are comparable enough that the HKS debt vs. free ride is a no brainer.

[chellie99]

One thing I worry about with this income-based payment plan and the 10 yr debt forgiveness plan - which would work out very well since I know I will be in public service for at least 10 years - is whether it will absolutely be there by the time I need it. Presumably a future Congress could change the law or eliminate the program. So, I don't know if we can count on it - I'd hate to expect to have my loans forgiven after 10 years but actually end up with $100K more to pay. Anyone have thoughts on that?

[therunaround]

One thing I worry about with this income-based payment plan and the 10 yr debt forgiveness plan - which would work out very well since I know I will be in public service for at least 10 years - is whether it will absolutely be there by the time I need it. Presumably a future Congress could change the law or eliminate the program. So, I don't know if we can count on it - I'd hate to expect to have my loans forgiven after 10 years but actually end up with $100K more to pay. Anyone have thoughts on that?

Chilling thought...and no idea

[linden]

chellie99:

You should be more concerned about what happens if you get married and your income increases. Run the calculator. The forgiveness program won't forgive that much debt if your spouse is making a moderate salary and does not have a significant level of debt. In that circumstance, you can basically kiss the forgiveness incentive good-bye because your income-based repayment amount increases. (Therunaround, maybe I selecting the wrong options, but I ran several scenarios. Only in one of them did I end up getting forgiven some money, about $13K.) :cry:

[therunaround]

chellie99:

You should be more concerned about what happens if you get married and your income increases. Run the calculator. The forgiveness program won't forgive that much debt if your spouse is making a moderate salary and does not have a significant level of debt. In that circumstance, you can basically kiss the forgiveness incentive good-bye because your income-based repayment amount increases. (Therunaround, maybe I selecting the wrong options, but I ran several scenarios. Only in one of them did I end up getting forgiven some money, about $13K.) :cry:

Hmm. I'd say make sure you do the 10 yr option, and enter in the loans in the correct boxes with the most realistic interest rates. for example a max of 40k stafford and the rest in PLUS loan at 7.9%. Not exactly easy to do tech support ;-)

That is disconcerting regarding the spouse factor. I didn't mess around with that and I think it is likely I will be married by 37...

Another thing I neglected to mention was that federal agencies, reps, and senators can buy back your debt at 10k a year up to 60k. This would also help some.

[thebends1996]

Linden hit it on the head. There are so many caveats to the new loan forgiveness program that hardly anyone will actually qualify for the full forgiveness (check out all the income restrictions, one of my coworkers was telling me all about how she was hookwinked into thinking her student loans would be covered ). Also, only direct loan supported programs are covered (therefore any private loan is not covered, unless it is through a direct loan supported program).

I would not base my decision on the loan forgiveness. If you have a dream to go to Harvard and will live the rest of your life with the regret of not going, that's one thing. However, thinking that you can make these small monthly payments while you rise up the ranks (and salary) and your loan will be forgiven is another. You are at the whims of Congress, which is not a good place to be--especially at this point in time.

I just know I hate making my student loan payments on a 15k loan from undergrad. I can't imagine doing it on a 120k loan.

The agencies that pay back student loans base it on discretionary spending, which not all of them offer, nor do most jobs on the hill (i work for a place on the hill that doesn't offer student loan forgiveness, but pays for future classes).

[therunaround]

As per our discussion, I thought you guys might find this article interesting:

http://harvardcitizen.com/2009/03/11/re ... on-making/

[jndaven]

I also warn against relying on loan assistance programs. Some government employers will count loan assistance programs paid to you as income, meaning you pay more taxes. At some levels, the after-tax benefits could be negligible. Often these arrangements also require some sort of continuing employment agreement, binding you to a certain organization for X number of years. Private sector plans are similar, so check the fine print carefully. On the other hand, student loan interest paid is tax deductible for incomes up to $70K (or something like that), not that it makes +$100K in debt any more bearable in the long run.