thebends1996

One thing that never seems to be mentioned in this forum is what to do after complete rejection. These boards can make even the smartest person feel inadequate, with all of the acceptances to elite institutions left and right. A student who is bright may find that all of their immediate plans are ruined. I’m here to try and offer a bit of encouragement and advice to those people. I started as a student at a relatively small liberal arts college. I became enchanted with the idea of going to a PhD program and pursuing a career in academia. Like all of you, I was an accomplished student. I presented at conferences, had a high GPA with decent test scores, and had great letters of recommendation (from faculty that aren’t universally known, but still great letters). I sent in my applications with grand hopes that were soon dashed away: not one single acceptance from a full-fledged PhD program. I was basically left with no plans. The stage after rejection is by far the most difficult. I really had no idea what to do. I ended up having to keep my remedial college job at a local car repair shop until the next round of applications were due. I decided this time that I needed to get a masters degree of some sort to make myself more appealing down the line. To my original chagrin, my advisor told me to pursue a more practical degree and enroll in theoretical courses while attending. This would give me a bit of a safety net, just in case things didn’t work out on the PhD front. Well, I had much better luck applying to MPA/MPP programs than PhD programs. Obviously, these programs aren’t nearly as selective, but it felt good to get some sort of validation for my efforts. I was lucky enough to receive a full-ride with a research assistantship at a good, but not highly ranked (top 35) program. I decided that I would roll the dice, and not take on the heavy debt burden of a place like NYU or GWU. I did pretty well during my graduate studies. I was in the top ten of my class, worked on a lot of research, and thoroughly enjoyed my time in graduate school (I don’t think I know a lot of people who can say that). I reapplied to PhD programs with better success than before (2 out of 5 if I remember correctly). I was accepted into two good, but not what people consider top tier programs (top 30 or so). After the sense of relief that I finally got into a PhD program faded, I really started to do some soul searching. Why was I so enchanted with academia? It wasn’t the prestige because, sans the few rock star professors, being an academic isn’t the most glamorous position. It couldn’t be the pay because, well, it’s not that great. The lifestyle of a tenured professor is pretty amazing, but that’s a pretty big roll of the dice for a middle-to-upper class lifestyle. So, exactly what was it? It was because I just didn’t know anything else. I had been programmed to think that the only way to have a rewarding, self fulfilling job was through academia. I decided to try and make it in a non-academic position to see what else was out there. After about two years of professional experience, I’m currently at a job where I get to do some of the things I loved in graduate school with things that I never thought I would enjoy. I’m able to influence key policy decisions at the national level, sit in on high level discussions, and even work with some professors at nearby universities. It’s been an amazing experience so far that I hope will not end soon. Now, the goal of this post isn’t for me to say that a PhD is a waste of time, or for me to say screw you to places that rejected me. It’s really just me trying to tell those people that were rejected, or those that are on the fence, that there are a lot of options out there where you can be professionally fulfilled. I will add, though, that getting some sort of graduate degree is a really, really good idea! Sorry for the long post. I just know how tough it is for those that didn’t receive the news they wanted, and it has to be somewhat nice to hear that other people have been there before.

I don't think your advisor is misleading you on purpose, but saying that all you need is an MPP from school X, Y, or Z for a particular type of job is false. The market is way too competitive for such a simple analysis. Far more important is the type of experience you've developed through internships/jobs and the contacts that you make in and out of the classroom. I actually work at one of the agencies that have been mentioned in this thread, and I have none of the listed qualities that your professor deems to be the most important. I have an MPA (and not from the most prestigious university) and I did not focus completely on hard math/stats. However, I made the most of graduate school experience by taking on leadership roles, internship opportunities, and networking events. This gave me something valuable to talk about during my interview--which I think direclty led to me being hired. You have to remember that for super competitive jobs you have to bring something extra to the table. If you just say I'm good at math because I took these courses, you haven't differentiated yourself from other job seekers.

In the end, most of you that are still arguing for taking on the higher debt to go to HKS have already made up your mind. You have run the CBA in your head and have decided that the value of going to HKS is worth more than the debt you will take on (or the incremental debt). If you have come to that decision, then you should go that route. However, to think that the HKS degree in and of itself will put you ahead of other people in the long term is pretty absurd. Where do people, when they are applying for an executive or management type position, put their education on their resume? At the bottom. Eventually, in the long term, that piece of paper you have earned becomes less and less important. The things you have accomplished professionaly and the people you know will trump that piece of paper very, very quickly, but that student loan payment will be with you for a very long time. Now, can it help you land that first entry level job a bit faster than a degree from another school? Possibly. I don't think anyone can clearly say yes or no to that question. Landing your first job is always the most difficult, and I think it also has a lot more to do with what you did in graduate school and who you know than where you went to school. I hope I don't come off as degrading your accomplishment. Getting into HKS is an amazing accomplishment that should not go unnoticed (I doubt I would have been accepted had I applied there a few years ago). However, I really think you can accomplish the same goals, with less debt, from a number of schools. I know I chose money over perceived prestige and I ended up in an amazing position without a student loan payment that equates to a mortgage.

Linden hit it on the head. There are so many caveats to the new loan forgiveness program that hardly anyone will actually qualify for the full forgiveness (check out all the income restrictions, one of my coworkers was telling me all about how she was hookwinked into thinking her student loans would be covered ). Also, only direct loan supported programs are covered (therefore any private loan is not covered, unless it is through a direct loan supported program). I would not base my decision on the loan forgiveness. If you have a dream to go to Harvard and will live the rest of your life with the regret of not going, that's one thing. However, thinking that you can make these small monthly payments while you rise up the ranks (and salary) and your loan will be forgiven is another. You are at the whims of Congress, which is not a good place to be--especially at this point in time. I just know I hate making my student loan payments on a 15k loan from undergrad. I can't imagine doing it on a 120k loan. The agencies that pay back student loans base it on discretionary spending, which not all of them offer, nor do most jobs on the hill (i work for a place on the hill that doesn't offer student loan forgiveness, but pays for future classes).

Just remember, where you went to school may help in getting the first job, but eventually that degree goes to the bottom of your resume. I'm not saying go to a school that has zero reputation in your field, but the perception that only the best jobs goes to those who attend WWS or HKS is absurd. There are plenty of people who attend a highly regarded state school or a supposedly less reputable private school and end up in the same prestigious positions as their big name school counterpart (without the huge price tag). The biggest thing that most people forget is that there is a life after your degree. This life includes buying a house, saving money for retirement, etc. All of these can seriously be derailed with a debt over 50k (which i personally think anything over 30k is a bit ridiculous, but I know it's difficult to go anywhere with an amount in that area). This is especially true for those going into public service or non profit work.

The loan repayment program is an agency decision and not mandated. I know a lot of the science/engineering type federal jobs use the program to retain talent (and the State Department). But, a lot of federal agencies do not offer the repayment program. It's discretionary spending for the agency and that can easily fluctuate year to year. Anyway, here is the link: http://www.opm.gov/oca/pay/studentloan/index.asp

This topic is a really major issue that I hope you future MPA/MPP students really think about. One of the most difficult decisions I made was choosing a lower-ranked school for free with a stipend over a bigger named school. I had acceptances from NYU, GW, American, Minnesota, and a couple others that I can't remember all with no funding. I was completely enamored by NYU especially (I had wanted to move back to NYC for some time and really liked the program) However, when I did the calculation, I would have been at least 100k in debt for the private schools and closer to the 30k-40k range at the public schools that were out of state. I just could not justify taking on that sort of debt load when the average salaries, for a good public sector job, start in the 45-55k range. I went to the lower-tiered (still top 40 I think in the bogus USNEWS publication) and was able to find a great job in the NYC Mayor's Office. After working there for a year, I have moved on to work for on to a prestigious position within a Congressional agency. I did this by really working hard on the networking front, keeping a high GPA, and taking advantage of every opportunity my school had to offer (including a lot of quant courses). I even, before I accepted the NYC job, had a few PhD offers (that was my original intention). Yes, a decent percentage of my colleagues have masters degrees from the usual suspects (GWU, Georgetown, Harvard, etc.), but there are some not so big schools, too. You may have to work a bit harder, but you won't have the burden of an $800 a month student loan that will seriously impede some of the things you may want to do in the future (ex: buy a house). I'd be happy to answer any questions people may have. I know how hard it is to choose a masters program and how daunting it can be, but really consider the financial implications. They can really alter your future plans.

As a person who works on the Hill, (and still dreams of getting a PhD and can't help but look at these boards during his 15 minute lunch break) I feel I might be able to give you some useful information. What the previous poster said about contacts is dead on. I was fortunate enough to get my position without networking, but I've been told I am an exception to the rule. I came in with some pretty useful experience, so that was probably what put me over the other candidates. Regarding the schools you are looking at, this would be my ranking: 1. Georgetown 2. Harvard 3. Berkeley 4. Princeton 5. NYU Georgetown is the obvious choice because it puts you in DC. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you are guaranteed a Hill job. It just gives you a leg up because of location and ability to network. Harvard gets your foot in the door because of the name. However, I don't think it really guarantees anything, either. Also, I think the logistics of interviewing in DC can be a bit of a nightmare. Berkeley may surprise some people, but I have heard a lot of high ranking people gush over Berkeley grads. They tend to be very sought after, but the logistics is even worse than Harvard, so that can be a huge detriment. Princeton is a bit of a wild card. I guess I see more Princeton people in international jobs, so they aren't as prevalent. Plus, I think a lot of grads tend to go to NYC for work. NYU is awesome for nonprofits and city government. I worked in Bloomberg's office and the place is filled with NYU grads (I didn't go there, however). Tho other wildcard is a lot of Hill staffers have law degrees (for better or worse in my opinion). Overall, finding a good Hill position (I suggest a committee position if you want a decent lifestyle in DC) is pretty damn difficult unless you know someone. Most of the time the jobs are filled before an announcement is even ready.

Hi Linden, If you want my opinion, go to the cheaper program (which is probably Maryland depending on your residency). From my limited experience in DC, I don't think there is a real tangible difference between the two schools. Just try to focus your studies into the area you are interested in and network with alumni. Also, I would suggest applying to other state schools in the surrounding DC area. It's really absurd to pay 50k a year for a degree that is catered toward government employment. I know way too many people who went to Columbia, Georgetown, GW, etc. and are fettered with 100k loans. It's absurd to take on that kind of debt for a degree focused on government and non profits.

billybob-I think it really boils down to where you'd rather teach: in a traditional political science department or a more policy centered school. I was accepted to the joint program last year, and I thought it was good, but wasn't completely enamored by it. The placement at Indiana is pretty decent. When I visited last year they placed all of their graduates and one person took a tenure track position at Syracuse. Now, for policy/public administration, this is, as I'm sure you know, a great placement. However, your chances are basically slim to none when it comes to a traditional school. Now, if you are interested in a career outside of academia, I would seriously consider SPEA. That program has a really solid reputation in government, nonprofit, and research circles. By the way, Bloomington is a really cheap place to live. I don't think there would be much of a difference between the two. You could easily find a 1 bedroom for 300-450. I would base your decision solely on your final career objective.

Congrats!

NSSR is a very interesting place to say the least. I was enrolled in their urban policy program (Milano Graduate School), but left after one semester. At that time, the Graduate Faculty and Milano shared the building. From what I remember, the Graduate Faculty had a pretty high attrition rate at the time. I know of more than a few people who left due to financial reasons, lack of resources for graduate students, and, though it might seem implausible, a lack of acceptance of free thought (for those outside of a critical theory or post modern viewpoint). Now, if this your cup of tea, I say go for it. This is especially true if you want to teach outside of the U.S. because the place is highly regarded internationally. However, if you want a job stateside, you will want to really evaluate this option thoroughly. Be prepared for a whole lot of Habermas!

lenin333, First, you have great GRE scores. I can say with little to no reservation that they had no bearing on your rejections. I really think another component of your application must have been missing something. Also, from looking at the schools you were rejected from, you applied to some really competitive places. I have a feeling you will get into NSSR, but I can tell you a bit about that place if you would like (I know a few people who went there). I know this is my first post, but I had to say that i empathize with you. I am getting ready to apply for PhD programs for the third time this fall. My first time was right out of undergrad at the cajoling of an undergraduate professor with unrealistic expectations for me at the time. I went through one of the most humbling experiences of my life as the rejections trickled in (except one school without funding that will remain nameless). I decided to take a different path and ended up reapplying to a professional program (public policy) and received a full ride. At the end of my second year, I reapplied to PhD programs in political science and programs in public policy. My GRE scores at the time were much lower than yours (1300 combined) and I was accepted at Indiana and Florida State. Although I loved FSU, some family issues arose and I was forced to decline. Now, I have been working for the Mayor's Office in NYC since the fall and I am once again determined to finally take the PhD plunge (3rd times a charm...i hope). I'm not sure how your situation will end this year, but I'm sure that if things don't work out, you can exponentially increase your chances of acceptance to a great program with some polishing of your research interests and maybe your writing sample (if needed). Finally, it's a ridiculously competitive process. Last year FSU told me they had 100+ applicants for 10 spots. I can only imagine how many the "elite" schools receive.