when is the best time for a "drop in" visit?

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I'll be visiting the city of one of the schools I'm applying to regardless of whether I get in or not because I have some friends in the city. I was thinking of going over spring break (the first week of March) since I wouldn't have to take any time off school. Anyway, this school's application deadline is March 1st and I heard they wait until March 2nd to start reviewing all applications. If I went during spring break, I'd get there the day before their deadline and I'd be there for 9-10 days. This is just a professional master's program so they don't really do interviews with applicants like PhD programs do. I'm sure they wouldn't say I couldn't visit if I happened to be in the area. But would the timing of such an impromptu visit be intruding and unprofessional? Should I just not bother visiting the department if I'm there during spring break and just tour the campus/city on my own? Or should I wait a month (they send out acceptance/rejection notifications April 1st) and make a formal visit after (if) I've been accepted? 

Edited October 28, 2013 by JoeyBoy718

[Usmivka]

Definitely go when you'll be there anyway, unless you think they will pay for you to return. I don't think the timing is a problem. It may work to your advantage, in that if you and a prof hit it off they can be on the lookout for your application in the near future.

[TakeruK]

I agree -- if you will be there anyways, then it might be a good thing to visit just before they start reviewing applications. 

 

I would just check to make sure it isn't Spring Break for the school you are visiting as well. Even though graduate students generally work during Spring Break, the department may not be as full and you might not see what it is really like during the school year. Also, if there are classes going on, it might be worth it to sit in on one class during your visit!

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

It won't be spring break for them. Also, I won't be there anyway. I'll either go during my spring break for 9-10 days or go a month later (after decisions have been made) for 4-5 days. I'm just not sure if dropping by during my spring break (which is when they start reviewing applications) will be intrusive and/or inappropriate.

Edited October 29, 2013 by JoeyBoy718

[TakeruK]

Oh, I thought you meant you would be visiting your friends anyways. If you are worried about being inappropriate by visiting during decision time, you could clear it with the department first -- email them to say that you would be in the area in early March, would it be okay to visit? etc. But they might not know that you know they start reviewing applications on March 2. If you don't want to be there while they are reviewing applications, then going early on is probably okay -- they might not begin immediately on March 1 (presumably you wouldn't be hanging around the dept for the whole 9-10 days right?)

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Oh, I thought you meant you would be visiting your friends anyways. If you are worried about being inappropriate by visiting during decision time, you could clear it with the department first -- email them to say that you would be in the area in early March, would it be okay to visit? etc. But they might not know that you know they start reviewing applications on March 2. If you don't want to be there while they are reviewing applications, then going early on is probably okay -- they might not begin immediately on March 1 (presumably you wouldn't be hanging around the dept for the whole 9-10 days right?)

Of course not. I wouldn't want to wear out my welcome. The good thing about going after decisions have been made is I wouldn't have to feel uncomfortable about opening up and asking for the full tour (since I'd be a student, barring I get accepted). The problem is, if I don't get accepted then I wouldn't bother visiting the department. If I go in early March, it'll be more convenient since it'll be during spring break, but I'd feel a little more uncomfortable since I wouldn't want to make a bad impression, and the department might be more tense since they would've just started reviewing. I'll be visiting regardless since I have friends there. The question is, do I visit in early March or early April? 

[Loric]

Honestly - just go, unannounced, wander around a bit.. ask questions of random people.. peek into classes. Try to buy lunch. Try to park.

 

Makre sure you don't hate the school and everything about it. Wish I'd done that with my first grad school. OMG I hate those people.

[TakeruK]

I don't think you should just randomly show up in the department and basically show up at a professor's door and say "I'm a prospective student, can I talk to you?". I would find that impolite! I think for your meetings with people in the department (students and professors), you should contact the admin staff or a prof you've had contact with and ask if you could visit sometime and they will usually set up a schedule for you. 

 

However, I do agree that it might be worth it to do some unplanned/unscheduled visiting around too, like just wandering around the campus and seeing how things are laid out, where to get food, park, see the bookstore or the gym, student housing, whatever interests you. Talk to "random" students on campus if  you'd like. But I wouldn't try to talk to people in the department I'm interested in unannounced (as if I was going to catch them off-guard) or without introducing myself as an applicant! I also wouldn't show up in a class in the department without an invitation or checking with the professor first. 

 

As for timing, do you think they would have an official visit day/weekend for accepted students only later on? If so, then you might choose to wait for that since you aren't interested in visiting the department if you're not accepted. If not, then I guess the question is do you think you will be able to make a positive impression that will help you get admitted? If so, then do it in March! If this is too much pressure and you wouldn't want to do that, then wait. I don't think you have to feel bad for doing this because this is fairly normal in academia. In my field, for example, some post-doc fellowships are awarded by specific institutions (fellowships that are tenable in different places too), so it is usually a good idea to volunteer to give a seminar at that institution in the same year as your application to increase your impact on them when they read your application! However, me telling you that you shouldn't "feel bad" doesn't mean that you won't magically feel bad! So I think you should do what you are comfortable with, but if you were wondering if other people thought it was okay to visit during admission decision time, my opinion is that it's okay -- if they are busy then they would ask you to visit another time.

[juilletmercredi]

I also disagree with the advice to show up unannounced.  This is rude, and you may find that people are too busy to meet with you or help you, which will unfairly impact your ideas towards the program.

 

It is neither intrusive nor inappropriate to visit a department before they have made decisions.  You simply email the departmental secretary (or the admissions/student affairs office of the school, if it is a professional master's program housed within a school) and say that you are planning to be in the city for personal reasons and you wanted to know if you could swing by the department to visit.  Say that you would, if possible, like to sit in on a class, chat with some current students.  If you want to talk to a specific professor, you can contact that professor separately and ask them, but I would only do that if you have specific questions about that professor's work and/or you want to do research with that professor in your MS program.

 

The departmental secretary or the SA official, whoever you contacted, will let you know whether or not the things you asked for are feasible.  I think you should keep your visit to 1-2 days.  The second day can be more your spontaneous day - you can visit the library, tour some buildings on your own, look at study spaces, poke around the city, etc.

 

Most professional master's programs are used to students visiting before they are admitted and welcome it, as they recruit actively.  My program is actually in a professional school that has a professional master's program and we get prospective students who visit all the time, especially if they already live here.  And I also visited a professional master's program before I was admitted to the school, because I lived in that city.  In fact, I think my visit helped tip me into the admitted pile.

[Loric]

Dear lord, the idea of going unannounced is to get an incognito look at the program, you're not supposed to be forcing yourself on anyone. 

[TakeruK]

So, the idea is to show up unannounced and then not even announce yourself -- just hang around the department discreetly and have a look at how things are run? I would say this has limited usefulness and not worth the money and effort to travel to the school in the first place.

 

I think that while you might learn a few things from quietly/discreetly observing the people in the department, you would have gained so much more if you scheduled a proper visit and people took the time to show you all the things, include you in events/seminars/classes, and set up interviews/meetings between you and people you want to speak to. 

 

I also think you can't really get much from discreetly walking the halls and trying to figure things out. You might hear things out of context and misinterpret them. But most likely, you won't hear/see anything at all. At all of the departments I've been to, all of the "real" things happen inside offices and you can't really just walk into an office and be an invisible observer. It will also be pretty obvious if you just hang around outside of office doors -- you can't stay for long without drawing suspicion.

 

Asking questions of random people -- like who? or what questions? If you talk to anyone in the department, they will likely remember you later on. They will probably either ask you if you're a visiting student (then what will you say? if you lie and accept the school's eventual offer, remember these people will be your colleagues!) or figure it out and wonder why you are being so secretive. If you ask random people not affiliated with the department (e.g. an undergrad just taking a class in the building) then they can't really tell you much about the grad program. They might still be useful -- see my post above about random questions.

 

Peeking into classes -- unless you are in a program where the classes are huge, a stranger is noticed pretty quickly. And it's not like you wouldn't be able to do this as an official visitor. So, I think trying to do it discreetly doesn't give you any advantages.

 

Finally, you are assuming that the grad students won't be honest in the first place. I am 100% honest with all prospective students and I don't try to mislead anyone. Most students will be very willing to tell you both the positives and negatives, especially when it's an in-person talk during an official visit. Dropping in unannounced and then asking probing questions will probably end up with more guarded responses. I don't know about the visits you've been on, but when students visit my programs and when I visited others, the prospectives usually have at least one evening of hanging out / having dinner with the current students and that's usually when you get a good feel of the social dynamic of these people. For the most part, both the professors and students will want to portray an accurate version of their department to you so that you will choose it if it is a good fit for all. Sure, small superficial things might be present during visits to entice prospectives (e.g. more/better food at seminars, people might talk to you more, higher density of free-food events / social events to give everyone a chance to interact etc.) but it's usually pretty easy to see what's regular and what has been enhanced for your visit! And if you ask the current grad students, they'll probably let you know what is special just for you. After all, we're also pretty happy that you are here to visit, because it usually means more events/free food for us

 

In summary -- I think an incognito visit isn't worth it because if you develop a good rapport with the current students, you will probably find them to be very honest. A discreet visit will also likely yield very little information, and what information you might get may be out of context and lead you astray. It's much more worth your time and money to schedule an official visit where you will get a good overview of how the department/program operates.

[Loric]

You're only thinking of your own tiny little world. In academic communities - ya know, where things actually thrive - there is a social aspect that can be observed.

 

People who live behind office doors and locked away in places untouched by the sun have sad little lives. I'd not want to join them.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

So, the idea is to show up unannounced and then not even announce yourself -- just hang around the department discreetly and have a look at how things are run? I would say this has limited usefulness and not worth the money and effort to travel to the school in the first place.

 

I think that while you might learn a few things from quietly/discreetly observing the people in the department, you would have gained so much more if you scheduled a proper visit and people took the time to show you all the things, include you in events/seminars/classes, and set up interviews/meetings between you and people you want to speak to. 

 

I also think you can't really get much from discreetly walking the halls and trying to figure things out. You might hear things out of context and misinterpret them. But most likely, you won't hear/see anything at all. At all of the departments I've been to, all of the "real" things happen inside offices and you can't really just walk into an office and be an invisible observer. It will also be pretty obvious if you just hang around outside of office doors -- you can't stay for long without drawing suspicion.

 

Asking questions of random people -- like who? or what questions? If you talk to anyone in the department, they will likely remember you later on. They will probably either ask you if you're a visiting student (then what will you say? if you lie and accept the school's eventual offer, remember these people will be your colleagues!) or figure it out and wonder why you are being so secretive. If you ask random people not affiliated with the department (e.g. an undergrad just taking a class in the building) then they can't really tell you much about the grad program. They might still be useful -- see my post above about random questions.

 

Peeking into classes -- unless you are in a program where the classes are huge, a stranger is noticed pretty quickly. And it's not like you wouldn't be able to do this as an official visitor. So, I think trying to do it discreetly doesn't give you any advantages.

 

Finally, you are assuming that the grad students won't be honest in the first place. I am 100% honest with all prospective students and I don't try to mislead anyone. Most students will be very willing to tell you both the positives and negatives, especially when it's an in-person talk during an official visit. Dropping in unannounced and then asking probing questions will probably end up with more guarded responses. I don't know about the visits you've been on, but when students visit my programs and when I visited others, the prospectives usually have at least one evening of hanging out / having dinner with the current students and that's usually when you get a good feel of the social dynamic of these people. For the most part, both the professors and students will want to portray an accurate version of their department to you so that you will choose it if it is a good fit for all. Sure, small superficial things might be present during visits to entice prospectives (e.g. more/better food at seminars, people might talk to you more, higher density of free-food events / social events to give everyone a chance to interact etc.) but it's usually pretty easy to see what's regular and what has been enhanced for your visit! And if you ask the current grad students, they'll probably let you know what is special just for you. After all, we're also pretty happy that you are here to visit, because it usually means more events/free food for us

 

In summary -- I think an incognito visit isn't worth it because if you develop a good rapport with the current students, you will probably find them to be very honest. A discreet visit will also likely yield very little information, and what information you might get may be out of context and lead you astray. It's much more worth your time and money to schedule an official visit where you will get a good overview of how the department/program operates.

Sorry, but I don't really know what you're responding to. You or Loric. I never said I was gonna creep around the corners and spy on operations. It's simple. I'll be in the city visiting friends for 9 days during spring break. The 9 days I'll be there are the first 9 days they'll be reviewing applications. They wait until March 2 to review and do all their reviewing in a 30-day span. I was wondering if emailing them (not dropping in "incognito") and saying, "I'll be in town and I was wondering if I can drop in and see some things/talk to some people," would be too intrusive since they would have just started their reviewing process. I'm not sure if they'd think I'm trying to get an upper hand on people who don't have the opportunity to fly across the country/world and have a formal visit. I never said anything about dropping in unannounced. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

You're only thinking of your own tiny little world. In academic communities - ya know, where things actually thrive - there is a social aspect that can be observed.

 

People who live behind office doors and locked away in places untouched by the sun have sad little lives. I'd not want to join them.

I'm a little confused. I hadn't come to this thread in a while. I think you've been having a side conversation with TakerUK because I never said anything about showing up unannounced. 

Edited November 15, 2013 by JoeyBoy718

[TakeruK]

Sorry, but I don't really know what you're responding to. You or Loric. I never said I was gonna creep around the corners and spy on operations. It's simple. I'll be in the city visiting friends for 9 days during spring break. The 9 days I'll be there are the first 9 days they'll be reviewing applications. They wait until March 2 to review and do all their reviewing in a 30-day span. I was wondering if emailing them (not dropping in "incognito") and saying, "I'll be in town and I was wondering if I can drop in and see some things/talk to some people," would be too intrusive since they would have just started their reviewing process. I'm not sure if they'd think I'm trying to get an upper hand on people who don't have the opportunity to fly across the country/world and have a formal visit. I never said anything about dropping in unannounced. 

 

Sorry, I was responding to Loric's suggestion for you to do an "incognito visit" and explaining why I thought that would be a bad idea.

 

Loric and I seem to disagree about this approach but as you pointed out, this isn't even something you are planning to do! So, it's probably best for Loric and I to stop derailing your thread now Sorry again.

 

Back on topic -- In my opinion, I don't think it will reflect poorly on you if you explain the circumstances -- i.e. you will be in town at these times and wonder if they would be willing to show you around. As I said way above, if they don't think this is appropriate, then they will let you know that they can't have visitors at this time. But I doubt this will be the case. Also, it's perfectly fine to use the visit to help boost your application, but obviously don't do it in a super obvious way (but they will know that you have applied and if they allow you to visit then they are okay with this). I know some cases where a student was not accepted with the original group but then after a visit, they got an offer. 

 

And while it's true that you will have an upper hand over those who can't fly in and visit, that's just how the system works. Maybe these people will be living near another school they want to attend and would be able to drive or take a bus up to visit. At the post-doc level, many people will give talks to places where they know the review panel for certain fellowships take place in order to increase their exposure. These talks may be made possible by being really interesting and getting invited, or by your advisor having enough funding to send you, or by knowing people in that department who would speak up for you to be invited, or some combination of these three. So I think it's all fair game and you should use every advantage you can get. I think it's all fair because these advantages can only help a great applicant get noticed, but it won't really make up for lack of skill or experience in a substandard applicant.