writing sample question

[georgestrait1982]

Hi all,

 

I'm appying to a few PhD programs that want 20-25 page writing samples. How would y'all feel about submitting, instead of one article-length paper, two conference-length papers? My best paper, in terms of just generally being a well-written piece of scholarship, is an article-lengther, but it doesn't do much with the theory that I want to pursue further at the PhD level. I do, however, have another conference-length paper that pushes the theory in exactly the direction I want to further explore.

 

I suppose the obvious answer would be to either work the theory into the first one, or extend the second, but I don't think I have the time or energy to get that done before the deadlines. Do you think submitting a conference-length version of the first paper, along with the second dealing with theory, would be acceptable? How might admission committees receive such a sample, do you think?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[ProfLorax]

That is... a really good question. No, seriously, I can see the pros and cons of each option. Since the writing sample is one of the most important parts of your application, I'd go straight to the source. Ask the DGS or any POI's you've had contact with at the schools where you are applying. Really, you don't want to mess around with the writing sample. Plus, some schools may have different answers. 

[georgestrait1982]

That's what I'm thinking. Unfortunately I have a feeling each member of an admissions committe would have a different answer...

[ComeBackZinc]

This is one where I could see some adcomms having no problem with it and some thinking that you've failed to follow directions. I completely agree with proflorax: email the DGS or graduate admin assistant and ask directly.

[BunnyWantsaPhD]

Some places actually list on their websites that this is a viable option. The ones that don't list it as an option, I'm assuming don't do it because they don't want it to be an option. Though, you know what making assumptions does...

[Datatape]

At some schools, you actually have to do this: provide them with two smaller writing samples that combine to about 20-25 pages.  I specifically remember having to do that with one school (Kansas?  I can't recall off the top of my head) last year.  but yes, to echo everybody else, the DGS is the person who would be able to tell you one way or the other whether this is kosher or not.

[purpleperson]

I have kind of a similar dilemma.  I have two writing samples, one 15 pages and one 22 pages, both of which I've been told by professors are fine as Ph.D. writing samples.  But the shorter one has a little less theory in it, while the longer one is chock full of it.   Yet I've been told that the shorter one is a more incisive argument.  Most of my schools ask for 15 to 20 pages; hence, I could use either.  And I'm torn because I really like that longer one having lots of theory, but the shorter one might actually be better.  So...I don't know.  I'm gonna try to get in two or three more readers of the papers between now and final submits just so I can gauge reactions to the papers.  

 

About following a school's directions.  I'm inclined to think the vast majority would not assume "you can't follow directions" if your SOP/writing sample/whatever is a little outside of what they stipulated for length or content.  Rather, they'd know that most people can follow directions, but not everything can fit perfectly into what the school wants.

 

For instance, I'll likely submit my 22 pages to some schools that ask for 20.  I also edited an SOP yesterday to 650 words, unable to get it to the 500 they ask for without really compromising cohesiveness and a comprehensive picture of myself that I'm assuming they want me to try to capture.  I probably will just leave it at 650 and hope they'll not scrap it just because it's not 500 words.  It's still reasonably short.

 

I don't know about others, but while I'm not completely hostile to schools' requirements, I find myself, at times, feeling like the hoops-jumping, the customization can go a little too far.   I don't mind them having guidelines, but if I were them, there'd be leeway on each guideline, provided the applicant didn't go WAY outside of the guidelines.  If they are that cutthroat about each guideline, which, when it comes to writing, can be a challenge (and they should know this), then to hell with them.  They are simply assholes.  It'd be different if they ask for your phone number and you refuse to give them a straight answer.  

 

I don't like, sometimes, that I'm even caring so much about admissions to a Ph.D. program.  

 

I can see this whole thing really crushing and depressing me in February and March.  Therefore, starting January, at which time I will have all applications complete and submitted (even earlier, really; it will be by December 20th, but I will relax through Christmas)...anyway, I plan to start working on my Plan B.  I don't want my whole future happiness to ride on getting into a PhD program or not.  There are other things I want in life, and I'm gonna put them in motion in January so that rejections don't crush my soul.  

 

I advise others to make Plan Bs as well.  Put everything you have into these applications, but make a strong Plan B that will allow you an emotional buffer come February and March.  

 

I know of two past classmates who applied to 12 and 13 schools and got into none, and both of these women are sharp.  They were sort of "stars," even, in school.  One made the mistake of applying to all Top 20 (I kind of scoff at her arrogance there; at one point, she had said, "I thought I'd at least get into U.T. (Austin)"  (as if UT is some lame-o school for average Joes).  But I don't know what the other one's deal was.  Maybe she did nothing wrong and just didn't get in.

 

The problem is, every time I complete a good aspect of my application, I get confident.  Like, I'll read over an SOP or a Diversity Statement and be so self-satisfied and think "I'm gonna get in..."  But then I think...nope.  Hundreds and hundreds of applicants are as capable and more capable than I am.  I could get into NONE.  I'm preparing for that.  

 

Don't let the whole thing own you.  Create a Plan B!

Edited November 8, 2013 by purpleperson

[jazzyd]

Is there a professor or someone in the field who's read both papers who you could talk to about this dilemma? Like ComeBackZinc, I can well imagine a situation in which adcomms appreciate the two smaller papers and a situation in which they're less than satisfied.

 

My only concern with the conference-length papers is that they might be a little... skeletal than adcomms prefer. The reason why some schools explicitly ask for one 20-25 paper is that this is the amount of time so to speak required to fully perform the kind of literary and research analysis they need to see. So really, this might come down to what those short papers look like, which is why I would really recommend getting a professor look them over and give you their thoughts. If you can shorten the longer paper and maintain the analytical depth, then you might have a winner.

 

But talk to the DGS (at each school you're applying to) and see if there's a professor who can advise you in this and read both papers and consider your options.

[georgestrait1982]

My only concern with the conference-length papers is that they might be a little... skeletal than adcomms prefer. The reason why some schools explicitly ask for one 20-25 paper is that this is the amount of time so to speak required to fully perform the kind of literary and research analysis they need to see. So really, this might come down to what those short papers look like, which is why I would really recommend getting a professor look them over and give you their thoughts. If you can shorten the longer paper and maintain the analytical depth, then you might have a winner.

 

 

Yeah. The 20-pager I've already got is really in-depth... I couldn't really condense it into the 9 pages I needed to present it at a conference without adding copious notes, which I suppose I'd include in the writing sample. I think I'd also add an introductory note explaining the situation, maybe offering to send them the longer version of the first one if they're interested.

 

Thanks for the replies, and I'd be interested to hear any more perspectives as well!

[jazzyd]

Just consult someone other than us (no offense to the great posters of grad cafe!) whether it be the DGS or a professor you trust in the field whatever you do. I've never heard of an ad comm going back to an applicant and asking for more writing (not to say it's never happened ever but... they're not literary agents) and by nature of the sheer volume of applications they need to go through even a brief introductory note that's not a part of the paper proper might cause annoyance, which is the last thing you want. The first few pages of whatever your sending needs to be as near perfect and awesome as you can get it.

Edited November 9, 2013 by jazzy dubois

[danieleWrites]

I'm adding my vote to Proflorax's suggestion. Unless writing sample requirements are specified, you should email the DGS and ask if s/he would prefer a single paper or if two, shorter conference papers were an option.

 

The other thing you could do is look at the research interests and the recent scholarship of the faculty you're interested in working with, the ones that your SOP is aimed at getting the attention of, and pick the work that would be of most interest to them. I had a well-written paper that I preferred, but went with one that was a bit weaker because it was more relevant to the faculty I was into and it supported the claims I was making in my SOP. I thought of  my SOP as my thesis statement and all materials were supposed to support that. Of course, my ADHD really reflects in my research interests and I have papers over everything. I love me the shiny.

[Doctor Cleveland]

I would urge you to submit a single piece of writing rather than combining two shorter things.

 

It's true that admissions committees and the individuals on them value different things. But one of the underlying things all reasonable committees are looking for is the applicant's potential to write full-length pieces of academic prose in the near future.

 

Two of the unspoken but absolutely crucial questions are 1) How close are you to being able to write a publishable journal article? and 2) How close are you to being able to write a successful dissertation. (The winning answer to both questions is "about 5 years away.") You can't predict how people will turn out, but you can identify if they're currently on track.

 

Students who can write strong BA- or MA-level term papers, at full length, are on track to develop into successful academic writers within a reasonable time. Maybe they won't, but right now they're where they should be. Someone whose best work is only ten pages long may NOT be on track: s/he may not yet have learned to develop a full-length argument, and may have to spend the first year or two in the program learning those skills. Adcomms want to see that you can already write a decent seminar paper.