Returning for a Second Undergraduate Degree?

[Shouta Misaki]

I'd like a second opinion on this. When I entered university straight out of high school I didn't have the clearest idea of what I wanted to be or do, but stuck with my gut and pursued my current academic interests, figuring that an academic environment would probably be the best one for helping me find my way. I'm now a junior doing my honours BA in psychology and history, and while I enjoy what I'm doing, I've since taken a real liking to science - biology, in particular. Right now I'm planning on taking all of the required high school courses for this (I really didn't like science at all when I was younger, funny enough), and in the time it'll take me to get that covered I'll pretty much be done with my current degree. I'm just curious: what do you think about returning for a second undergraduate degree? At the moment, it seems to me like going back for a BSc in biology is the right thing to do if I really want to be happy with my academic career and future, but I'm open to alternative plans and opinions.

[TakeruK]

Depending on your school, you might be able to do this and even have some lower level credits from your original bachelor's degree "double counted" towards your second BSc. For example, my undergraduate school, UBC, does allow this: http://science.ubc.ca/students/degree/second. So, if you can also take lower level science courses (may not be possible without high school science courses) at your current school, that might reduce your time needed to do your second degree at a school that will accept transferred credits. This is assuming that you are certain you want to get a BSc in Biology as a second degree. But maybe it's better to keep all your options open and if you're not in a huge hurry to get your undergraduate education done, you could continue on your current Honours BA route and then worry about a Biology BSc only afterwards. 

 

Just letting you know about the above info in case it's helpful. I am not really advising for or against switching to biology because I have no idea the details specific to you (and I'm not a major in any of the things you are studying!). Also, I want to let you know that at many schools, you can take the high school equivalent course at University and have that count towards elective credits in your BA so you don't have to end up taking extra high school courses (if that's what you're doing). For example, in BC, we don't have to take Biology 11 or Biology 12 to get into UBC Science, but that did mean I had to take an extra Biology class when I started at UBC to make up for this. However, that one course fulfilled the pre-requisite to take other Biology courses at UBC (where the normal pre-req is high school biology). So maybe you can do the same with the other lower level science/math classes at your current school too!

[Shouta Misaki]

Thanks for the info! If I go through with this, I'll likely be attending a different university to get my BSc. But yeah, I can still apply for advanced standing/transfer credits and knock a few things off my second degree right off the bat because of what I've already done the first time around.

[juilletmercredi]

I think getting a second bachelor's degree is almost always unnecessary.  The only exceptions, IMO, are if you want to be a nurse or an engineer (and even then, with engineering it's often unnecessary if you have a close major like math or physics).

 

However, you are in Canada so take my advice with a grain of salt - I'm American and I only know much about the American education system.

 

There aren't any required high school courses that you have to take before you start taking biology.  Intro biology 101 at the college-level is designed to be a floor-level course - it's appropriate for students who had never taken biology before.  So if you want to take intro biology classes, begin now with college classes, not HS classes.

 

If you started in the spring semester, assuming that you don't attend college during the summer you could take anywhere from 3-5 biology courses depending on how many requirements for your major you have left.  You could potentially drop one of your majors and use the time to take classes in biology instead.  That would get you a minor, or close to it, which may qualify you to pursue an MS in biology.  You may need a few more classes (so closer to 7 or 8) but if you get at least 3 or 4 done in college, then you only need 3 or 4 more and you can take those as a non-degree student while you work after you graduate.  Then you can go back and get an MS in biology and if you're interested, a PhD.

 

Also, most colleges that accept students doing second bachelor's (if you choose that route) count the general education credits you've earned somewhere else.  It usually doesn't take four years for a student to complete a second BSc - it usually takes around 2 or 2.5.  You will only have to take the major courses and perhaps a few general electives.  Be mindful though that not all colleges and universities allow people to do a second bachelor's.

[TakeruK]

Like my previous post, I won't comment on whether or not it's a good idea to get a second BSc. That's a tough decision to make and I don't have anything useful to say about that! 

 

But I could add a few more things about getting a BSc in Canada. Maybe the OP already knows this, though. Also, this may be mostly a BC thing while it looks like the OP is in Ontario (although not sure where the OP would do their BSc). Also, it may be of interest to the non-Canadians reading this!

 

In BC at least (maybe all of Canada?), a BSc degree in e.g. Biology would require more than just Biology courses. For any BSc degree at UBC, for example, students must take first year courses in Biology, Physics, Math, and Chemistry. The freshman level courses in these topics usually require a high school equivalent as a pre-requisite, which I know that my friends in BA programs generally did not take. However, if you didn't take Physics 12 in high school, then you can take an extra Physics class in University that covers the Physics 12 material before taking the freshman level Physics class. 

 

In BC, if you were not planning to take sciences in college, you would not have been required to take very many grade 11 and 12 science classes to graduate high school. It used to be one grade 11/12 science class was the minimum, and math up to grade 11. At many schools, to take the freshman math class (Calculus I), students are expected to have both Math 12 and Calculus 12 (or AP Calculus) before coming to University. For many non-science majors, students only have Math up to grade 11, so they would be two math classes behind. Again, universities offer classes that will catch you up, though.

 

I guess my point is that although it may depend on what BSc program the OP plans to enroll in, there are a lot of broad science requirements that go into getting a BSc in Canadian schools. These requirements have a lot of HS level pre-reqs which a BA-intended student may not have taken in HS. But all of these courses are offered at University.

 

Many of these pre-req courses are also offered as distance-ed courses and colleges in Canada (called "community colleges" in the US) will sometimes offer these high school courses as a self-taught/"on your own pace" type class. My spouse took some of these to fulfill some missing requirements and the tuition fees are minimal because you pay for the materials and then there are optional weekly tutorials where an instructor helps you understand any concepts you couldn't get on your own and then you take a series of tests until you have mastered all of the concepts. So something like this, if available, might help the OP get these extra courses done while also taking a full Honours BA load. Just be sure that these courses will transfer to whatever school you want to go to.

 

Also, these HS level courses are important because some Canadian universities will only accept students into their BSc program if you have the right high school courses. For example, to get into my BSc program, you needed to have Grade 12 level for Math, English, and two of (Physics, Chemistry, Biology). So the OP might have to either take continuing education classes to meet these high school requirements or take the equivalent pre-freshman level courses at their current University before enrolling in a BSc. But these admission standards change over time so this may be outdated.

 

Finally, I agree that it might be a good idea to just take whatever intro biology courses at your current University that does not require any previous knowledge of biology. You might not even have to worry about getting the first year level physics/chemistry/math etc courses until you start your BSc.

[Shouta Misaki]

Thanks for the reply! As you say, back when I was planning for my BA I didn't take courses that are typically BSc pre-requisites in Canada. I actually have looked into distance education options and found an online school with all the necessary credentials that allows me to learn advanced functions, physics, chemistry and biology at the 12U level from home. I'm looking into whether calculus and vectors is something I'd definitely need or not. But anyways, I can take care of all this during my next summer break, and it's also drastically cheaper than the equivalents offered by universities. In fact, I'm not even sure I could get in to university (at least reliably) for a BSc without first taking care of these high school requirements.

 

The things is, by the time I've done all this I'll be more-or-less done my BA, and so I figure I may as well wrap that up and not throw my current majors out the window before getting into biology. I have heard about some universities not accepting students for second undergraduate degrees though, as you said - that's definitely something I should look into more. I'm currently attending York University, and I'm planning on moving on to the University of Guelph for my next bachelor's.

 

Also, I've heard a lot about people entering into graduate school programs without an extremely similar undergraduate education. I know very little about the details as an undergraduate, so maybe somebody could fill me in, but would that really work out for me? I mean, a BA in psychology and history, and then pursuing a master's related to biology? I worry that I'd lack the expertise and the academic profile to even stand a chance, not only getting accepted but with regards to the quality of my studies even if I did.    

Edited December 11, 2013 by Shouta Misaki

[TakeruK]

Also, I've heard a lot about people entering into graduate school programs without an extremely similar undergraduate education. I know very little about the details as an undergraduate, so maybe somebody could fill me in, but would that really work out for me? I mean, a BA in psychology and history, and then pursuing a master's related to biology? I worry that I'd lack the expertise and the academic profile to even stand a chance, not only getting accepted but with regards to the quality of my studies even if I did.    

 

I hate to say this because I hate it whenever I have to say something that sounds snobby but I do think that the preparation of a BA student is different enough from the preparation of a BSc student that a MSc program would be hesitant to take a student with a BA without equivalent classes. 

 

My experience is mostly with physics programs in Canada, and usually the pickier schools will require their applicants have an Honours BSc to get into the Physics MSc program. Less picky schools generally will accept any student with a BSc that has the relevant experience (for example, at my MSc school, there was an astronomy graduate student with a BSc in Chemistry). 

 

So, I would think that most MSc graduate programs in Canada would not take a BA student unless that student has an equivalent amount of relevant courses and training during their undergrad, which I think would be very difficult for someone to do alongside a Honours BA in an unrelated field. But don't just take my word for it--if this is what you want to try, then definitely talk to some grad schools now even.

 

At many schools, a BSc is intended to train someone as a general scientist, with some specialization in their field of major, which is why you will have to know a lot more than just biology to get a BSc in biology. I think the biologists at UBC had to take the first calculus course ("Calculus I" or differential calculus) but they may not have to take further math classes. I also know that some schools have math and physics classes tailored towards life science majors. I wanted to check if what I experienced at UBC is similar at Guelph so I looked up their requirements: http://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/calendars/undergraduate/current/c10/c10bsc-bios.shtml -- looks like you might need one calculus class and the second one is optional (but you'll need some kind of math/computational elective later on). 

[Shouta Misaki]

I think you're right, and that it's not so much snobbish as honest and realistic. This is why I've been contemplating getting a second undergraduate degree in the first place. Given my situation, by the time I'd be qualified to undertake BSc studies I'll pretty much have my BA. I know for sure that I want to study biology in graduate school, so it really seems like completing my BA and then going on to get my BSc is the best route for me if I really want to pursue what I want. As you've indicated, at least my first degree will likely knock a number of requirements off my second one.

[browncow]

I don't know the Canadian system, but in the US it's relatively uncommon to find a second bachelor's program, you would be ineligible for aid, and you could count some credits but would still have to fulfill a 2-year minimum at the new school. Why wouldn't you just extend your current program or transfer and get a dual degree at the school you want to attend?

 

Do you have an opportunity to pursue research in the sciences?

 

How do you know that you are committed to a science degree if you've never done research or university-level work in the sciences? Even in university, there is a huge difference between fun, general lower-division courses and more serious scientific inquiry. What do you want to do with your BSc degree? Do you have the opportunity to begin building some bio background into your psych degree, e.g., neuroscience?

 

Another option (at least in the US) is a post-bac, which is usually for people wanting to go to med school and the like who don't have the required background. The basic reqs are the same as the core for a typical BS in biology, i.e., 1 year multivariable calc, 1 year physics, 1 year bio, 1 year inorganic and 1 year organic chemistry. If you did well in a post-bac and gained research experience, you should be prepared to go in for a masters.

 

Alternatively, pursue a science core and do well without getting a second degree. You need a first degree and core scientific knowledge for a graduate program, but you do not strictly need a biology degree.

[Shouta Misaki]

Mmhm, I've been looking into post-bachelor studies, actually. As for pursuing a science core with my BA, unfortunately I'm locked out of a lot of those sorta courses. Under the Canadian system, I lack the high school pre-requisites that I'm currently working to obtain. This is also why I can't transfer universities and do a double degree now, and by the time I have those courses taken care of I'll more or less be done my BA and be able to continue on how I please. And yeah, I have done what I can to make sure I'm up for biology given that it's a relatively new interest. I focus on neuroscience and other related fields within my psychology major, and I'm going to do an undergraduate thesis next year that is relevant to this.

[TakeruK]

Mmhm, I've been looking into post-bachelor studies, actually. As for pursuing a science core with my BA, unfortunately I'm locked out of a lot of those sorta courses. Under the Canadian system, I lack the high school pre-requisites that I'm currently working to obtain. This is also why I can't transfer universities and do a double degree now, and by the time I have those courses taken care of I'll more or less be done my BA and be able to continue on how I please. And yeah, I have done what I can to make sure I'm up for biology given that it's a relatively new interest. I focus on neuroscience and other related fields within my psychology major, and I'm going to do an undergraduate thesis next year that is relevant to this.

 

I think your current plan is the best way forward that ensures you still get a Hons BA in case you don't end up continuing with Biology. It keeps the most options open. The only way I can think of that you can do this faster is to stop taking courses towards your BA in history and attempt to change to a science stream as much as possible. But you will then have to worry about changing into a BSc program (which might be competitive) and also worry about maxing out on the number of credits. Or you can maybe drop the "Hons." designation and just do the bare minimum for your current BA major and take all electives in Science (including the high school level science courses). But I think this is risky! I like your current plan because it allows you to finish the Hons. BA completely first and sets you up to start a BSc elsewhere if that's what you want to do in 2 years time!