I'm an idiot; help help help

[catsnphysics]

Let me lay this out for you.

 

3.0 GPA

 

physics major, astronomy concentration

 

GRE scores pretty good, 75-90 percentile

 

PGRE score abysmal. I'm talking single digits. I'm talking I went and bought a bottle of Glenfiddich and drank it neat. When I finished the drink I cried back into the glass and drank it. Like bad. It's apparently not possible to will death upon yourself, or I wouldn't be typing this.

 

I have ADHD and was not medicated until this past semester, and good goddamn, I was kicking ass. I felt great, I felt like I was really learning, and I thought that showing a marked improvement in grades in upper level courses would be beneficial to grad school applications, even if my overall transcript is weak.

 

Plot twist: my grades sucked. (Minus an A in a graduate astrophysics course and the acceptable B in electronics lab.) Basically around exam time I had a gap in insurance (read: no medication), extremely stressful extenuating circumstances, of the like I would not feel at all comfortable mentioning in applications, and I failed miserably. So, C in E & M and C- in quantum. I mean, literally, I was making upper 90s and 100s on all of my homework. Then BAM, suckerpunched by exams.

 

As someone with crippling anxiety (I take medications for that, too!), I believe the emphasis on exams is outrageous, but I digress.

 

Since a C- in quantum ISN'T EVEN ACCEPTABLE FOR GRADUATION I am basically pleading with my professor to either raise it to a C out of the goodness of his heart, or let me take a course and petition for it to replace the grade, since I am supposed to graduate in the spring.

 

 

 

So now you're thinking, okay, so what's the question????

 

Obviously I'm not kidding myself into thinking I can apply to Columbia, but more than anything I want to go to a PhD program in astronomy/physics. Am I dreaming? What the effing hell do I do? Do I stay in undergrad another year and try to retake courses (rotting in my hellhole of a city in the meantime)? Do I try a master's program? Is that even realistic? Do I take the GPA punch, try to retake the PGRE, and just apply again next year? Do I cry some more?

 

I should have strong recommendations - two from professors and one from a woman whose lab I worked in this summer. I'm smart and motivated and passionate, just a dumbass. Or something. This summer is my only research experience, because working 30-35 hours a week hasn't left me with a lot of time for research during the school year. And to be honest, I had no idea you could get paid summer internships, so I hadn't even tried.

 

No publication came of it. It gets worse and worse, right?

 

I am a very strong writer and am somewhat confident that my statement of purpose can kick ass. But I have no idea how much that matters.

 

Obviously there is some luck involved in admissions as well, so I'm not expecting you to tell me which schools I will get into. Just be real with me and tell me if I should probably just hang on to the obscene amounts of money that will be spent on applications, and maybe help me with a game plan.

 

Maybe related: I am a hispanic not-a-girl-not-yet-a-woman, and I'm poor as dammit.

[m-ttl]

Well it's nice to see fellow (poor) Latinas around... (who also have anxiety boy do I know that one). 

 

I think you need to look at the positives you DO have to offer first:

 

• Strong recs (I don't know if your programs/field only needs two)
• At least one lab experience/research experience (I'm afraid I don't know how to place 'not published', though, as I'm not in STEM)
• An underrepresented minority in the STEM fields (poor/woman/hispanic) who also worked through school -- me too. 
• Strong SOP 

A good rec writer would be able to speak to the obstacles you've encountered -- maybe there's no need to excuse everything in detail, but a brief mention to medical issues + having to work through school but still being a wonderful applicant regardless. 

 

My advice is to consider carefully a handful of MA programs. What you need to do is make a short list (maybe no more than 5?) and ask:

 

1. Can I possibly get in? 
2. Would what I have to offer be appealing in my application? (Diversity, experience, etc)
3. Can I afford that gamble of admissions right now?
4. Do they have what I want to study?
5. Can they pay me?
6. Do I have enough time to organize myself and apply?

Bonus: Does the program REQUIRE my PGRE score?

 

If you're not sure, but really want to try this round, maybe apply to 2-3 schools, and look to work on that C- grade. If your applications are a wash, retake the PGRE and save up money for the next round. See if you can do other things to strengthen your application, and apply to MAs again. You need to do well in an MA to prove you can handle the PhD. I don't think all of your work is down the drain!

 

 You can get there.

Edited January 2, 2014 by m-ttl

[TakeruK]

Here's what I can help you with, as someone in your field, in addition to what m-ttl already said.

 

You will definitely need to redo the PGRE to get into most PhD programs. If you will do a graduate program in a physics-related but not purely physics program (e.g. Astronomy) then you probably won't need as high of a PGRE score as a "pure" physics program because these programs tend to de-emphasize the PGRE. However, if by single digits you mean <10th percentile, then I think this will raise a lot of flags even at schools that might not emphasize the PGRE as much. Generally, a very high GPA is a good way to offset a low PGRE score. So, I don't think it will be worth it for you to apply to PhD programs that require the PGRE score this year.

 

For the LORs, most programs will require 3 but there are some that only need two. You don't have to elaborate further on your letter writers if you don't want to, but here is some advice to help you determine if they are going to be good, and which letters you should submit if you only need to send 2.

 

In my opinion, here is the preferred order of LOR writers, assuming that they will write good things about you in the respective categories:

1. The best letter is one from a a faculty member (with a PhD) that supervised your research.

2. Next is someone with a PhD but not necessarily faculty, that supervised your research.

3. Then a professor who taught you multiple classes and can write good things about you but you didn't work with directly. 

3. But, tied for 3rd, I think, is someone without a PhD but established experience (e.g. staff scientist with a MS) that can say really good things about your research ability, and importantly, compare you favourably to other graduates from your program.

5. Finally, letters from someone who you had limited contact with (e.g. just one class) or a non-professor position would be "neutral".

 

Some letters can be better than others if the prof is well known to the faculty you're applying to etc. And for non-traditional students, letters from professionals could also work. I would consider that letters in the first two categories are "strong letters" and the others can be "good letters" or "neutral letters". It's rare for an applicant to be able to get all their letters from the first two groups though, so it sounds like you might be doing pretty well in this department, depending on who the person that supervised your research is (i.e. does she have a PhD?) and whether or not the letters from the two professors can mention your research at all (even research in a term project or thesis would be better than just commenting on your classes). In your case too, if your profs that taught you can write about your strengths at your classes outside of exams, it would help too. They might be able to support your argument that your performance in exams is not reflective of your actual knowledge/ability. 

 

If you think it is worth the gamble, like I said above, you can try to submit a few applications to PhD programs that don't require the PGRE. Whether or not you apply to PhD programs, you should also have alternate plans for the next year or two and act on those now too. That is, if you choose to gamble with a few PhD programs, you can and should do one or more of the following too:

 

1. Improve your PGRE score. I hate the PGRE. I took it twice and did not do well both times (<50 percentile), even with a lot of preparation the second time. But you can't really avoid it for your current goals. You probably do not need to ace it or anything though, but it might help to devote some effort into not just studying for the PGRE, but seek out other study resources to make sure you are studying "smartly". I really think the way to do well on the PGRE is to know how to take the test, not just knowing all the physics. People say that a study group really helped (I was in one but I didn't change my score too much). Everyone I know who did well practiced a lot....like redoing the 5 practice tests over and over until you can solve all 500 questions each within 1.7 minutes (the time you have per question on the real thing). It's hard to find time to do this though, but if you are not aiming for top programs, you don't have to worry about getting the highest scores--probably something in the middle of the pack is good. And the PGRE isn't everything, I was able to get into some top programs that required the PGRE even with scores in the bottom half of people who take the PGRE! But you will probably have to improve a bit past your <10th percentile. It might be a good idea to try to redo the PGRE in April 2014 instead of waiting until Fall 2014 (although depending on what you else you choose to do, maybe the summer is a good time to prepare for it).

 

2. Stay in your undergrad program for another year and apply for PhD programs starting Fall 2015. This will give you two ways to improve your application, and also give you more time to work on the PGRE. You can use this time to do these two things:

a ) Improve your GPA/coursework. Retake classes that you are able to. You can also take advantage of the extra year to take some graduate level courses at your school (if they let you). Just take a couple, don't go overboard though! Admission committees care about undergrad grades because they indicate ability to perform well at graduate level courses. So, doing well at graduate courses now can go far in demonstrating this ability.

b ) Maybe more importantly, you can increase your research experience! If you stay another year, you can apply for those paid summer internships. This is usually the perfect time to apply for stuff coming up this summer. Look into REU programs and also programs at your own school. Don't be afraid to look into programs at other places too, but it might be too costly unless the paid positions come with room and board too (some of them are paid like awards and will do this). Also, you should definitely do a senior thesis at your current school in this extra year if possible. If you can get both of these research experience positions, you will be applying for Fall 2015 with 3 different projects, and potentially 3 very strong research based LORs. I would strongly recommend taking only a reduced courseload (maybe just the minimum to maintain full time status) during your 5th year so that you can devote a lot of time to research (and working extra jobs to pay for school as necessary).

 

3. Alternatively, like m-ttl suggested, you can try to get into a terminal MS program. Do a thesis-based one if possible, which tend to be about 2 years (some are 1 year though). This will also give you chances to prove yourself in graduate level classes. The downside of course is that there are very few terminal MS programs in Physics, and almost all of them will be unfunded. So this option will likely cost more than option 2. But it might provide better access to research opportunities than option 2!

 

4. Or, you can just work on improving your research experience/ability. You can apply to research associate positions or other full time science research positions for BS graduates. I think it might be hard to find positions, but if you get one, you can then save up money and maybe be able to afford a MS program (option 3) more easily later on. This might also give you more time to study for the PGRE. The downside is that many positions like this might not actually train you in useful research skills and since you are no longer in school, you will have to repay any student loans you may have.

 

Anyways, I hope that is useful. The above options are not mutually exclusive at this point -- you can try to apply to all four pathways (PhD programs, do an extra year in undergrad w/ summer research, MS program, or "industry") now and when decisions come in, you can then decide what you want to do. But that would take a lot of effort now and it's important to maintain good grades in this last semester. So, based on the questions m-ttl pose above, and considering your priorities and resources, you can think about what you want to do and go for it!

 

Finally, as a first generation college and graduate student, I found the whole process really confusing. I think I owe a big part of my success to having very good mentors in my professors and peers / older colleagues. I don't know if you are also a first generation applicant, but either way, don't be afraid to seek out help. Reach out to any professors you have a good relationship with (or people you have worked with that summer) and let them know you are thinking about grad school and ask if they have advice etc. Forums like GradCafe is also a great place. You should also visit www.physicsgre.com if you have not yet, it seems like there aren't very many Physics/Astro types here. Also the other website has a lot of profiles posted every year (since 2008) where people post their stats and where they got in. This could help you decide whether or not you would be competitive. Just remember that the people who post profiles there (and also here, or anywhere) are not a representative sample--generally only people who do well will post. So, it is a good source of information, but don't get intimidated by all of the perfect GPAs and GREs!

 

Good luck!!

Edited January 2, 2014 by TakeruK

[catsnphysics]

Thank you both for being so nice - I feel like a lot of people just give you the derisive, "well why did you mess up?" It's done and there is nothing retroactive I can do and it's not as though I meant to!

 

Most require three LORs, and mine are options one and the second three, of those that TakeruK mentioned. The woman supervising my research was a PhD, and two professors who I had several classes with and had a good relationship with. (And are PhDs.) One of my recommenders is basically a million years old and has worked at Oak Ridge National Lab for 50 years, and has a CV that is basically a novel, so I feel there is a chance that he could be somewhat "known." Of course, I have no way of knowing what they're saying in their letters.

 

My main apprehension for staying in undergrad is that I currently have zero loans. However, I don't know if my current scholarships carry over for a fifth year. In addition, I just reaaaaally hate this place, and a piece of me dies every month that I'm still here.

 

For similar reasons, I find a master's program pretty unappealing, because I haven't gone into debt so far, and I really don't want to.

 

I really find all of my options unappealing, but I kind of feel like you guys have cemented my belief that I cannot get into a PhD program. Which makes me sad beyond belief, and I guess I may apply to a couple anyway, but I suppose it's time for plan B.

 

I wanted to retake the PGRE, but couldn't do it in time for applications. I guess an option would be to retake it and try to get another internship, then apply next fall, avoiding an additional year of undergrad.

 

When I see people crying over their 3.6 GPAs I could punch myself, but taking another year is kind of my last resort.

 

le sigh

 

I am definitely one of those people who has had their life planned since middle school, and this is really throwing off the plan.

 

Also, this weekend I am going to the American Astronomical Society conference in DC, with the help of an awesome contact at the school I did research at (where I would also like to apply), and I thought about emailing departments and asking if they will have anybody there that I could speak with. I don't know if this could really make a difference at all, but I guess it can't hurt?

 

Will I have any better chance applying at the school I researched at, or do you think it's pretty much the same? I have also been speaking extensively with a professor there whose research I am interested in, but I don't know if that could help me at all either.

 

I feel doomed.

[klondike]

As someone not in STEM nor (yet?) admitted to a graduate program, so speaking only from a place of support, I don't think TakeruK and m-ttl are saying you can't get into a phd program at all, just that exactly now it may be a little chancy, but do not give up hope! As we all recognize, things like grades and test scores do not represent even 1/2 of the whole applicant and are adjustable, so do not let yourself start thinking it is impossible! (I don't know how registration in US universities works) but maybe you could register for just one extra semester in your undergrad program, provided you do very well in the coming semester, and either apply for the winter semester in 2015 or plan to work for that time? (I don't know your field) but maybe you could ask some of the professors you have good relationships with if there are additional research projects you could participate in and zone in on publishing? 

 

As a fellow poor person, I empathize with you about the heinous costs of applying to graduate school. As a fellow 'not the highest GPA in the world'-holder, I join with you in wanting to punch and break things when people complain about 3,6 GPAs. I saw someone saying their GPA was "not so hot - 3,9." I mean, everyone has their own journey, I'm sure that 3,8-person with five publications is legitimately stressed-out and unhappy, but...UGH.

 

Anyway. Don't you fret. Just look to the future and take in all of your options, and follow the others' advice 

[m-ttl]

As someone not in STEM nor (yet?) admitted to a graduate program, so speaking only from a place of support, I don't think TakeruK and m-ttl are saying you can't get into a phd program at all, just that exactly now it may be a little chancy, but do not give up hope! As we all recognize, things like grades and test scores do not represent even 1/2 of the whole applicant and are adjustable, so do not let yourself start thinking it is impossible! (I don't know how registration in US universities works) but maybe you could register for just one extra semester in your undergrad program, provided you do very well in the coming semester, and either apply for the winter semester in 2015 or plan to work for that time? (I don't know your field) but maybe you could ask some of the professors you have good relationships with if there are additional research projects you could participate in and zone in on publishing? 

 

As a fellow poor person, I empathize with you about the heinous costs of applying to graduate school. As a fellow 'not the highest GPA in the world'-holder, I join with you in wanting to punch and break things when people complain about 3,6 GPAs. I saw someone saying their GPA was "not so hot - 3,9." I mean, everyone has their own journey, I'm sure that 3,8-person with five publications is legitimately stressed-out and unhappy, but...UGH.

 

Anyway. Don't you fret. Just look to the future and take in all of your options, and follow the others' advice 

 

I don't think it's impossible for OP to get into a PhD program. I just think that if their goal is some place like Columbia an excellent run in an MA program would boost their chances for them getting into wherever they want. 

[TakeruK]

On 1/2/2014 at 6:47 PM, catsnphysics said:

Most require three LORs, and mine are options one and the second three, of those that TakeruK mentioned. The woman supervising my research was a PhD, and two professors who I had several classes with and had a good relationship with. (And are PhDs.) One of my recommenders is basically a million years old and has worked at Oak Ridge National Lab for 50 years, and has a CV that is basically a novel, so I feel there is a chance that he could be somewhat "known." Of course, I have no way of knowing what they're saying in their letters.

 

That's a potentially a great LOR then! I was a bit confused why you said your LORs were from "two professors and a woman", because "professor" is a job title but "woman" is not. Anyways....

 

Quote

My main apprehension for staying in undergrad is that I currently have zero loans. However, I don't know if my current scholarships carry over for a fifth year. In addition, I just reaaaaally hate this place, and a piece of me dies every month that I'm still here.

 

For similar reasons, I find a master's program pretty unappealing, because I haven't gone into debt so far, and I really don't want to.

 

I really find all of my options unappealing, but I kind of feel like you guys have cemented my belief that I cannot get into a PhD program. Which makes me sad beyond belief, and I guess I may apply to a couple anyway, but I suppose it's time for plan B.

 

I wanted to retake the PGRE, but couldn't do it in time for applications. I guess an option would be to retake it and try to get another internship, then apply next fall, avoiding an additional year of undergrad.

 

When I see people crying over their 3.6 GPAs I could punch myself, but taking another year is kind of my last resort.

 

This is good then, you're in a good financial position for whatever you choose next. Like the person above, I am not saying you can't ever get in a PhD program, and not even saying you can't get in a PhD program right now (but if you do, it would be really unlikely to get into one that requires the PGRE). 

 

I don't know if I can really give further meaningful advice since I don't know all the details and nor should you give all the details. So I will just say this and let you decide for yourself if what I say is useful!

 

1. I don't think there is any rush to join a graduate program right away. It might be better to take the extra year or two (whether it's in extended undergrad, or Masters, or industry) to get into a program that would be a good fit. Even if you get into a program this year, it might not be the best program. If you take some time to build up your profile better, you can have more options when it is time to start grad school!

 

2. I am not sure how much an extra year of school would cost you (undergrad education in Canada is really cheap) and I am a fellow poor person, in the sense that my family had $0 saved up for my college fund (not their fault; it's really hard to save when you are immigrants!). I had a small amount of scholarships but I paid for the majority of my tuition and fees from my summer research work. I took 5 years to finish undergrad so that I could have more (paid) research experience, which allowed me to graduate without loans (even a bit saved up!) and a lot of experience to put on my resume.

 

3. The best way to balance out academics and the GRE scores is to have a very impressive research record. You already have one good one, it sounds like. If you wait a year to apply, you should make the most of your year in between. I think remaining a student will increase your opportunities for research by an order of magnitude. I also think remaining an undergrad is cheaper than being an unfunded MS student (not to mention there are not very many terminal MS programs anyways). Industry opportunities are few in astronomy (but you might go the physics route?). And finally, if you do e.g. a NASA internship, it would be great, but that is one 10-week program or something....if you had an extra year of school, you can really build up your research.

 

I guess I am trying to point out how I think an extra year in undergrad is probably the most efficient use of time towards improving your chances in a PhD program. But I can't know if this is actually the best path for you--I'm just saying what the positives are and you should decide for yourself what you want. I'm not meaning to push one choice or another!!

 

Quote

I am definitely one of those people who has had their life planned since middle school, and this is really throwing off the plan.

 

Also, this weekend I am going to the American Astronomical Society conference in DC, with the help of an awesome contact at the school I did research at (where I would also like to apply), and I thought about emailing departments and asking if they will have anybody there that I could speak with. I don't know if this could really make a difference at all, but I guess it can't hurt?

 

Will I have any better chance applying at the school I researched at, or do you think it's pretty much the same? I have also been speaking extensively with a professor there whose research I am interested in, but I don't know if that could help me at all either.

 

I feel doomed.

I think one big part of life past college, especially in grad school, is that nothing will go as planned! But as long as we work hard and make smart preparations, we will be ready for any twists! 

 

I think talking to profs and also other graduate students at the AAS is a great plan. I think it is even expected. When I applied to UW in 2011, they emailed us around this time to give a list of names of the profs at UW that are attending that year's AAS. I would encourage you to email and reach out to any profs you might be interested in. At the same time, keep an eye out at the conference for people wearing name tags from the schools you want to learn more about. Particularly look for grad students, as you probably know, you can identify them mostly because their badges say "Jr. Member". And of course, attend the talks and look at the posters in the topic of interests and you can get an idea of who studies what in your field

 

I wouldn't say that talking to a professor will directly help your application for sure. But it can give you new insights about different opportunities at each school and it can help you describe yourself and shape your application to be a better fit for that place. Overall, it would definitely be worth the effort, in my opinion, to reach out to people in graduate programs you're interested in.

[catsnphysics]

Thank you all for your really excellent advice and kindness. I guess I've got a lot to think about, but I have decided that I will apply to a few places, for the [expensive] hell of it.

Your help has been much better than the family/friends who say, "you're so smart, you'll get in!" Like no one cares if I'm smart, lots of people are smart. I think a lot of people don't get that once you're looking within the field, not every physics grad is special.

But if a university asks you, let them know that I am, in fact, extremely special.

Thank you for being so very helpful! I feel somewhat better. Still sad, less in a crippling panic. Sometimes that's all you can ask for?

[TakeruK]

Glad it has been helpful and good luck!!! Have fun at the AAS!!