Cognitive Neuroscience / Neuropsychology confusion

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

Hello everyone and Happy New Year.

 

I am a new member in this forum, although I have been browsing through it for some years.

 

I am a Psychology student who is currently in his fourth year of studies at a Greek (English - medium) institution. I have applied to five U.S.A. Cognitive Neuroscience programs for the Fall 2014 term since I am very interested in that area of studies. My main interests lie in the spectrum of schizophrenia and prefrontal cortex dysfunctions exhibited in that disorder; however prefrontal cortex and executive functioning in general are also interesting to me among other areas such as brain damage in stroke and epileptic patients .

 

Misinformation caused by a discrepancy among U.S.A., U.K., Europe, and Greek legislation pertaining to Neuropsychology licensing procedures and requirements has lead me to a conundrum. After I investigated the matter more thoroughly, my confusion was hugely exacerbated. My question is can a Cognitive Neuroscience PhD graduate go on and become a Neuropscyhologist? Also, I am quite confused to if I want to attend a Cognitive Neuroscience program at all. The thought of succeeding to get into a Cognitive Neuroscience program only to find out that it is not what I wanted to do is terrifying. 

 

To further help you in helping me, what I would (ideally) like to do for a living is work at a medical facility, do research and have some contact with patients in order to assess them and make a diagnosis and help other professionals (psychiatrists, psychologists, neurosurgeons etc) perform treatment on them. I am not interested in being in a room and doing therapy with a patient. Running tests to assess and diagnose yes. Doing therapy by talking to them no. All in all if we were talking with percentages I would say that I am 60% interested in research and 40% in assessment and diagnosis.

 

Time is not an issue since I can afford to reapply next year and try to publish my thesis and work with my supervisor (who is a clinical Neuropsychologist at a Neurosurgery department of a hospital) after this year's graduation. Also I can focus on boosting my GRE quantitative score (my verbal is really good which I guess is a pro for an international applicant). I am aware that this decision (pursuing graduate studies) is possibly the most important I am going to make in my life and if it takes an extra year to find out what exactly I want to do, so be it. 

 

So all in all I would like to ask this community if I am following the correct route by applying to Cognitive Neuroscience programs and if not where should I apply next year? Can I become a Neuropsychologist with a PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience? Is my minimal interest in therapy and heavy focus on research, assessment, and diagnosis correspondent to the duties of a Neuropsychologist?

 

All answers will be deeply appreciated.

[Lisa44201]

 

 

So all in all I would like to ask this community if I am following the correct route by applying to Cognitive Neuroscience programs and if not where should I apply next year? Can I become a Neuropsychologist with a PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience? Is my minimal interest in therapy and heavy focus on research, assessment, and diagnosis correspondent to the duties of a Neuropsychologist?

 

All answers will be deeply appreciated.

 

In answer to your third question, Yes; in answer to second, No, not for assessment/diagnosis. For what you want to do, I would suggest going Clinical in a program with a strong Neuro focus, then doing your post-doc in a Neuro-intensive facility. You'll do some therapy work in school as part of your degree program, but it won't necessarily mean you do it in your career. 

[Cog-Neuro Guy]

To become a practicing neuropsychologist in the United States, it would require a Ph.D. in counseling or clinical psychology with your practicum hours devoted to neuropsychological practices (assessment, therapy, etc.). You would also need to complete specific coursework in areas like clinical neuropsychology, neuropsychological assessment, neuroanatomy and maybe a handful of other "neuro"- based courses. All of this will provide you the basis to be competitive and attractive to apply for a post-doctoral position in clinical neuropsychology. After you have completed an ABCN-accredited post-doc position, you are now eligible to sit for the ABPP-CN board certification to become a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist. 

 

However, if you want to be a neuropsychologist in the research sense, an experimental psychology Ph.D. would be just fine. I currently work in a university hospital in which I often collaborate with cognitive neuroscientists who perform neuropsychological assessments to conduct research for their department. In fact, this month I will be assisting in administering and analyzing neuropsychological assessments for the purpose of a depression study with a fellow cognitive neuroscientist. My recommendation to you is, to find a program that really has a faculty member that you can devote your research to the research side of neuropsychology. It is often difficult to get into a program in which most faculty members are either hard-core neuroscience or hard-core cognitive science minded. 

 

My current school has two professors who use neuropsychological assessments in their research. All of the other faculty use wet-lab practices and cognitive science practices to research. FYI: If neuropsychology is what you want, becoming a clinical neuropsychologist is the better route, as most if not all of your time is just assessment.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Cog-Neuro Guy

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

In answer to your third question, Yes; in answer to second, No, not for assessment/diagnosis. For what you want to do, I would suggest going Clinical in a program with a strong Neuro focus, then doing your post-doc in a Neuro-intensive facility. You'll do some therapy work in school as part of your degree program, but it won't necessarily mean you do it in your career. 

 

Thank you very much for your reply. So basically I should wait to apply next year to a Clinical program? What I am afraid of is that my research oriented experience will hamper my chances of getting admitted to a Clinical program (don't they value clinical volunteer work more than research experience or is that a misconception?)

 

 

To become a practicing neuropsychologist in the United States, it would require a Ph.D. in counseling or clinical psychology with your practicum hours devoted to neuropsychological practices (assessment, therapy, etc.). You would also need to complete specific coursework in areas like clinical neuropsychology, neuropsychological assessment, neuroanatomy and maybe a handful of other "neuro"- based courses. All of this will provide you the basis to be competitive and attractive to apply for a post-doctoral position in clinical neuropsychology. After you have completed an ABCN-accredited post-doc position, you are now eligible to sit for the ABPP-CN board certification to become a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist. 

 

However, if you want to be a neuropsychologist in the research sense, an experimental psychology Ph.D. would be just fine. I currently work in a university hospital in which I often collaborate with cognitive neuroscientists who perform neuropsychological assessments to conduct research for their department. In fact, this month I will be assisting in administering and analyzing neuropsychological assessments for the purpose of a depression study with a fellow cognitive neuroscientist. My recommendation to you is, to find a program that really has a faculty member that you can devote your research to the research side of neuropsychology. It is often difficult to get into a program in which most faculty members are either hard-core neuroscience or hard-core cognitive science minded. 

 

My current school has two professors who use neuropsychological assessments in their research. All of the other faculty use wet-lab practices and cognitive science practices to research. FYI: If neuropsychology is what you want, becoming a clinical neuropsychologist is the better route, as most if not all of your time is just assessment.

 

Thank you for your reply! I think you are echoing Lisa44201's sentiments in the sense that I should probably wait for next year and apply to Clinical programs. My question to you is the same as the one I made to Lisa. Will my research heavy experience prevent me from getting admitted to a Clinical program? 

 

Also, how much research do clinical neuropsychologists do? Because like I said I am somewhere about 60% interested in research and 40% interested in assessment.

 

 

Edit: Which schools are good for a Ph.D. in Clinical Neuropsychology or Clinical Psychology with a focus on Neuropsychology?

Edited January 3, 2014 by Schizo-Neuro enthusiast

[Cog-Neuro Guy]

Thank you very much for your reply. So basically I should wait to apply next year to a Clinical program? What I am afraid of is that my research oriented experience will hamper my chances of getting admitted to a Clinical program (don't they value clinical volunteer work more than research experience or is that a misconception?)

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply! I think you are echoing Lisa44201's sentiments in the sense that I should probably wait for next year and apply to Clinical programs. My question to you is the same as the one I made to Lisa. Will my research heavy experience prevent me from getting admitted to a Clinical program? 

 

Also, how much research do clinical neuropsychologists do? Because like I said I am somewhere about 60% interested in research and 40% interested in assessment.

 

 

Edit: Which schools are good for a Ph.D. in Clinical Neuropsychology or Clinical Psychology with a focus on Neuropsychology?

 

In the United States, there are no such things as Ph.D. in Clinical Neuropsychology, however, you can attend a program that either has a significant research focus within neuropsychology (mostly found in clinical psychology Ph.D. programs) or you can attend a university that actually has built-in tracts within the clinical psychology program (Nova Southeastern University is one many). Here is a link that provides you the ability to search for programs that are post-doc, or Ph.D. with a neuropsychology tract built within the program: http://www.div40.org/training/index.html

 

Much of clinical neuropsychology is clinical assessment of neuropathology and neuro-cognitive ailments or disorders. I work in a department within a major medical university in which a lot of our clients are often seen for dementia, concussion, TBI, etc. Most work conducted by these neuropsychologists is the accurate assessment of a neural disturbance with psychiatric or cognitive consequences to provide a clearer picture to the treating neurologist, psychiatrist, etc. To answer your question, it involves mostly assessment, however, you may elect to take part in some therapy such as CBT, RET, etc. If you have a chance, look at "Neuropsychological Assessment, 5th ed." by Lezak. One of the six purposes of neuropsychology is research, so, you will find that this is sounding pretty on key with your current aspirations. 

 

As far as your concerns about getting into a program; you actually sound like you would be a great fit. Most funded Ph.D. programs in clinical psychology really seek a person with strong, consistent research experience with a heavy passion in research. While clinical experience is helpful, the research component of your application is going to make up the bulk of your evaluation. If your experience is neuroscience, psychological or cognitive-related, you have a very strong acumen to work in this field. 

 

If you are unsure as to if you want to be clinically applied or more focused on research within the field of neuropsychology, I suggest you find a paid or non-paid position within a clinical neuropsychology setting (e.g. hospital, university). Most of my experience has been researching rather than clinical applications of the science, however, this will be changing in the next week for me. This will really expose you to the responsibilities that are required of a scientist-practioner. If you find that the clinical setting is not your cup of tea, that is fine, look at a program in cognitive neuroscience or an experimental psychology Ph.D. program with a neuropsychology research faculty. Neuropsychology was developed off of principles within clinical neurology, cognitive science, neuroscience, psychology...needless to say, these fields are research in focus. 

 

Hope this helps!

[Lisa44201]

Thank you very much for your reply. So basically I should wait to apply next year to a Clinical program? What I am afraid of is that my research oriented experience will hamper my chances of getting admitted to a Clinical program (don't they value clinical volunteer work more than research experience or is that a misconception?)

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply! I think you are echoing Lisa44201's sentiments in the sense that I should probably wait for next year and apply to Clinical programs. My question to you is the same as the one I made to Lisa. Will my research heavy experience prevent me from getting admitted to a Clinical program? 

 

Also, how much research do clinical neuropsychologists do? Because like I said I am somewhere about 60% interested in research and 40% interested in assessment.

 

 

Edit: Which schools are good for a Ph.D. in Clinical Neuropsychology or Clinical Psychology with a focus on Neuropsychology?

No, Clinical programs by and large don't pay much attention (if any) to clinical experiences/extra-curriculars. Your research interests and experiences are much, much more important.

 

As far as schools go, start reading published research about your topic. Look at the authors of those studies. Figure out where they teach. Apply there. In Psychology, the name of the institution doesn't matter nearly as much as research fit with a specific POI.

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

In the United States, there are no such things as Ph.D. in Clinical Neuropsychology, however, you can attend a program that either has a significant research focus within neuropsychology (mostly found in clinical psychology Ph.D. programs) or you can attend a university that actually has built-in tracts within the clinical psychology program (Nova Southeastern University is one many). Here is a link that provides you the ability to search for programs that are post-doc, or Ph.D. with a neuropsychology tract built within the program: http://www.div40.org/training/index.html

 

Much of clinical neuropsychology is clinical assessment of neuropathology and neuro-cognitive ailments or disorders. I work in a department within a major medical university in which a lot of our clients are often seen for dementia, concussion, TBI, etc. Most work conducted by these neuropsychologists is the accurate assessment of a neural disturbance with psychiatric or cognitive consequences to provide a clearer picture to the treating neurologist, psychiatrist, etc. To answer your question, it involves mostly assessment, however, you may elect to take part in some therapy such as CBT, RET, etc. If you have a chance, look at "Neuropsychological Assessment, 5th ed." by Lezak. One of the six purposes of neuropsychology is research, so, you will find that this is sounding pretty on key with your current aspirations. 

 

As far as your concerns about getting into a program; you actually sound like you would be a great fit. Most funded Ph.D. programs in clinical psychology really seek a person with strong, consistent research experience with a heavy passion in research. While clinical experience is helpful, the research component of your application is going to make up the bulk of your evaluation. If your experience is neuroscience, psychological or cognitive-related, you have a very strong acumen to work in this field. 

 

If you are unsure as to if you want to be clinically applied or more focused on research within the field of neuropsychology, I suggest you find a paid or non-paid position within a clinical neuropsychology setting (e.g. hospital, university). Most of my experience has been researching rather than clinical applications of the science, however, this will be changing in the next week for me. This will really expose you to the responsibilities that are required of a scientist-practioner. If you find that the clinical setting is not your cup of tea, that is fine, look at a program in cognitive neuroscience or an experimental psychology Ph.D. program with a neuropsychology research faculty. Neuropsychology was developed off of principles within clinical neurology, cognitive science, neuroscience, psychology...needless to say, these fields are research in focus. 

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

Wow thank you very much for this informative post. 

 

No, Clinical programs by and large don't pay much attention (if any) to clinical experiences/extra-curriculars. Your research interests and experiences are much, much more important.

 

As far as schools go, start reading published research about your topic. Look at the authors of those studies. Figure out where they teach. Apply there. In Psychology, the name of the institution doesn't matter nearly as much as research fit with a specific POI.

 

Thanks for the reply! The only downside to all of this is that I have to wait for another year and here are some of my concerns:

 

a)  I wanted to get out of Greece as soon as possible but it has to be postponed at least until late summer of 2015 if I manage to get into a program in the U.S.A. (my alternative is the U.K.)

b ) I will be 25 by the time I start my Ph.D. which in the U.S.A. takes a minimum of 5 years (maybe I am too old? I currently am 23 years old)

c) Universities will be wary when they see that I reapply to a different program. (I have applied to Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, Cornell and University of Chicago)

d) I am afraid that I will lose contact with my studies if I have an empty (academically) year.  

 

On the plus side if I reapply I will know better as far as applications are concerned and I will be better prepared for graduate studies.

[Lisa44201]

Wow thank you very much for this informative post. 

 

 

Thanks for the reply! The only downside to all of this is that I have to wait for another year and here are some of my concerns:

 

a)  I wanted to get out of Greece as soon as possible but it has to be postponed at least until late summer of 2015 if I manage to get into a program in the U.S.A. (my alternative is the U.K.)

b ) I will be 25 by the time I start my Ph.D. which in the U.S.A. takes a minimum of 5 years (maybe I am too old? I currently am 23 years old)

c) Universities will be wary when they see that I reapply to a different program. (I have applied to Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, Cornell and University of Chicago)

d) I am afraid that I will lose contact with my studies if I have an empty (academically) year.  

 

On the plus side if I reapply I will know better as far as applications are concerned and I will be better prepared for graduate studies.

b.) I was 32 when I started my PhD program. If you're too old at 25, I'm decrepit

c.) I am now attending a University that rejected my application when I originally applied two years ago. Each application cycle is an independent event; what matters is that you're a more competitive candidate when you re-apply. 

a.) & d.) Apply to some Master's programs, too. I'm not sure what your other stats are (GPA, GRE, etc.); but on the off-chance you don't get into a PhD program during that app cycle, a Master's program will keep you in the game academically, give you a chance to do more research, and give you a link back to the States. A Master's in Experimental would be better than Clinical. 

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

b.) I was 32 when I started my PhD program. If you're too old at 25, I'm decrepit

c.) I am now attending a University that rejected my application when I originally applied two years ago. Each application cycle is an independent event; what matters is that you're a more competitive candidate when you re-apply. 

a.) & d.) Apply to some Master's programs, too. I'm not sure what your other stats are (GPA, GRE, etc.); but on the off-chance you don't get into a PhD program during that app cycle, a Master's program will keep you in the game academically, give you a chance to do more research, and give you a link back to the States. A Master's in Experimental would be better than Clinical. 

 

b ) Ok, maybe my age concern was a bit overexaggerating.

c) My situations is a bit different. I applied to Cognitive Neuroscience programs this year so if I apply to Clinical programs next year won't that seem bad?

a) & d) My concern is not what will happen if I don't get into a PhD program in the next app cycle (I have a back up plan for that). My concern is that this year I am graduating which means that after June I will not be doing any academic work. I will retake the GRE around September, I will be applying to PhD programs by October and of course I will do some volunteer work (possibly some research) at the clinic where my thesis supervisor works. However from September 2014 - September 2015 I will not be doing any academic work. That is what concerns me the most.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Schizo-Neuro enthusiast

[Lisa44201]

Next year's AdComms aren't going to know that you applied to a different concentration last year. They don't dig through their files to see who's applied more than once.

 

I would avoid doing clinical work, and focus on research. If you were even remotely interested in Counseling, then volunteer work in a clinic might matter; for most of the other psych divisions, research experience is more important.

[PsychGirl1]

If I were you, with your year "off", I would spend 10% of your time getting a clinical experience (I think it's good to have one or two short-term clinical experiences when you apply so to use as evidence that you don't really want to do clinical work but you know what you're getting into), 75-80% of your time doing research, and 10-15% of your time improving things you can on your app (ex. GRE scores, take a night grad-level class if your GPA is bad, work on perfecting your personal statement and CV) and researching programs and professors.

[Schizo-Neuro enthusiast]

Next year's AdComms aren't going to know that you applied to a different concentration last year. They don't dig through their files to see who's applied more than once.

 

I would avoid doing clinical work, and focus on research. If you were even remotely interested in Counseling, then volunteer work in a clinic might matter; for most of the other psych divisions, research experience is more important.

 

Hearing that next year's admissions committees are not going to know that I applied to a different program is quite a relief. That is what I am intending to do. Minimal if any clinical work and focus on independent research.

 

 

If I were you, with your year "off", I would spend 10% of your time getting a clinical experience (I think it's good to have one or two short-term clinical experiences when you apply so to use as evidence that you don't really want to do clinical work but you know what you're getting into), 75-80% of your time doing research, and 10-15% of your time improving things you can on your app (ex. GRE scores, take a night grad-level class if your GPA is bad, work on perfecting your personal statement and CV) and researching programs and professors.

 

That kind of plan is what I have in mind. As far as grades go, I have a 4.0 GPA (and hope to keep it that way) and a good verbal GRE score (89th percentile). I will focus on bettering my abysmal quantitative score and my mediocre analytical writing score. Once again thank you both for your replies!

Edited January 8, 2014 by Schizo-Neuro enthusiast