What makes a good program?

[rync]

I thought as acceptances roll around, this would be an interesting topic.

 

Obviously, a good program is in the eye of the beholder, but there's also a practical element involved at the end of the day. 

 

First off, in regards to rankings, what is considered "good"? Is it top 30s, top 50s?

 

Also, I know that some people will end up debating between schools because of fit, but that the schools' rankings are considerably different. Because of the incredibly tough job market, what's your advice? Should students attend lower rank schools? How will this affect their job/research progression later on?

[SocGirl2013]

A good program in my opinion is one you fit well with but will also at the end of the day, get you a job. Because there is a life you need to live after the 5-6 years of Grad School, lol. 

[No Transitory]

A good program in my opinion is one you fit well with but will also at the end of the day, get you a job. Because there is a life you need to live after the 5-6 years of Grad School, lol. 

I would basically agree with you SocGirl2013; however, I don't think I share your optimism concerning the "life" after Graduate School. Because there's the associate position first, then the assistant position, and then, if you're lucky/structurally advantaged/self-sacrificing enough to make it through all the hoops there might be a "life" as a full professor... But that's just my understanding, maybe there's not even a "life" as a full professor; but hey, we're scientists, let's find out!

 

Back to topic; I think fit should be the most influential factor in picking good programs. I have been told over and over not to go into academia and I believe the experience of these ppl; so if you're going to start something without any prospects, you should at least satisfy your intellectual hunger - if you can still feel it over the pain of your empty stomach since we've got no money to buy food...

 

P.S. Sorry for the sarcasm but it helps with the anxiety of waiting for decisions.

[mbrown0315]

You should feel comfortable yet challenged at your program, so fit is important. Judging fit by your interests, however, is a questionable strategy. Many students change their research interests after the first year or so of graduate school or find that there is enough opportunity to interact with faculty on other campuses (conferences, summer fellowships, email exchanges, etc).

 

Rank, for better or worse, is important, though that importance fluctuates with your own aspirations. Look up a few schools you'd be happy to be employed by in the future and check their academic faculty listings (putting more weight on more recent hires). Where did they get their degrees?

[Maleficent999]

I've been told that more often than not, you (or the hypothetical academic on the job market) are more likely to get employed at a school one to two tiers lower than wherever you received your degree. I don't have any statistics to back this up, it is just what I've been told. For instance, if you go to a UC school, you might be more likely to be employed at a CSU than a higher-ranked program. However, I have always wondered who gets employed at the top-ranking programs if the people at top-ranking programs are getting employed at lower-upper or mid-ranked schools. Ghosts? The immortal professors who just WON'T retire?!

[maximus82]

However, I have always wondered who gets employed at the top-ranking programs if the people at top-ranking programs are getting employed at lower-upper or mid-ranked schools. Ghosts? The immortal professors who just WON'T retire?!

 

Most top 10 programs are hiring top 3 or top 5 graduates. I'd say that most new hires at top 10 schools are coming from schools like Berkeley,  Princeton, Michigan, University of Chicago, etc. 

 

I think you should consider the following factors when deciding what makes a good program (in no particular order): 

Fit

collaborations between faculty and grad students

avg time to graduation

placement of recent grads

Graduate student culture

money

 

ultimately, remember that the best (and most productive) graduate student is a happy graduate student... so i think all of these things.  

 

regarding money: yes. money matters. DO NOT go to a PhD program unless you get good funding. Even at schools with good funding, people are graduating with debt. and worrying about money when you also have to worry about research, the job market, etc. is a pain. 

[amlobo]

"Practically" speaking, when I applied, I really only applied to top 30 universities and would say my list leaned toward mostly top 20 programs.  Part of that was the fact that universities doing the research I wanted to do happened to be in the top 30... and part was strategic in that I want a shot at a job in academia at the end of all of this.  After getting into programs, it became very clear to me which program would be best for me.  I think placement rates, the "culture" of the department, the fit of my general interests, and the program's resources were all part of my decision.  

 

I visited a few schools, and one just stood out above the rest... people were doing the kinds of research I wanted to do and accomplishing the kinds of things I knew I needed to.  In the end, the real decision becomes very individual because not everyone wants the same things... and not everyone responds to the same style of department/advisor.  

[ohgoodness]

 I think placement rates, the "culture" of the department, the fit of my general interests, and the program's resources were all part of my decision.  

 

I visited a few schools, and one just stood out above the rest... people were doing the kinds of research I wanted to do and accomplishing the kinds of things I knew I needed to.  In the end, the real decision becomes very individual because not everyone wants the same things... and not everyone responds to the same style of department/advisor.  

 

I agree with this 100% and I would like to stress the fit even more.   I am in my first year and it has not been an easy gig so far but what has kept me going has been that I really, really fit into my department.  I really didn't think that it would matter as much as it does but it makes a world of difference to feel that one is a part of the department and share interests with what is going on.   There are a lot of things going on (seminars, talk, ra-ships) and those things can really be great inspirations if they touch upon what you are most interested in.    It is also very nice to be able to talk to senior faculty about your own ideas about research and get very positive responses.   I mean - you will work 10 hours a day and spend virtually all of your social/mental energy within domain of your program so it is rather important to feel like you belong and dare to take steps forwards. 

 

I at least "love" my graduate experience so far and I would attribute 50% of the positive feeling to fit whereas there are people in my program who feel completely out of the departmental sphere and have struggled due to this.  Obviously this could change as one progresses through the program but you know - to get a good job; you need at least 5 solid papers and that's one a year...  

Edited January 29, 2014 by ohgoodness

[das]

What makes a good program for you will be a bit subjective...a program that is in the top 10 according to US News or ASA rankings may not have any faculty in your area/s, thus making it a 'bad' program.

 

A good program:

1. is the best you can get into that also gives you the most funding

2. is in an area of the country where you can be happy and not too poverty-stricken for 5 - 7 years or so (yes, many people with funding also end up with student loans)

3. has at least two, if not three, faculty in your primary research/interest area and your secondary areas

4. has training programs or workshops - to prepare you to teach your own courses, write grants, write publishable articles

5. has a demonstrated record of graduating PhD students in a timely manner, in your fields of interest, and who develop a career trajectory; in other words - is supporting the sort of work you wish to do

6. has professors who are at least minimally engaged in something besides their own advancement

7. has structures and systems for mentoring you on things like writing a good cover letter and CV; writing a good article; doing real, solid research that is widely marketable and easily explainable; doing good theorizing; writing well and cleanly

 

In terms of future, placements, etc...the road from first year to job searching years is long. You may not want to attempt an R1 career, with grant and publishing pressures, PhD & MA supervisions, possible mass class teaching. Flexibility is key when considering a program - you want a program that won't, by negligence or by design, close off opportunities for you. Good luck with the process!