Which school would you attend?

[linden]

I am having a tough time making up my mind, and I would love to hear the opinions of others going through this admissions cycle.

I have been admitted to the following MPP programs.

* Georgetown (GPPI)

[scotty]

Hi Linden - firstly want to thank you for all your comments on the boards, I've found them really useful as I try and make up my mind too. I'm in a similar situation, trying to decide between:

Maxwell, Syracuse - full-ride and stipend, 12 month course (no debt, no expenditure)

HKS - no Harvard funding, but $40k scholarship for first year ($60k debt, plus spending my $20k savings and working)

Columbia - same as above, but possibility of some second year funding

As an international I'm heavily leaning towards Harvard. In your case I think Georgetown does have a good reputation internationally by those in the know (and definitely more than GW). The difference is that everyone has heard of Harvard, and (I think) it will start to pay for itself in your future career. However if you want to work in DC then I imagine there are hugh benefits from actually being there including contacts/internships.

Let me know what you decide!

[therunaround]

I am also in a similar boat, but I'm choosing between:

SAIS: 13k/yr fellowship - approx. 67k debt

HKS: nothing - approx. 103k debt

GPPI: 10kyr scholarship - approx. 50k debt

...and I'm leaning towards Harvard for a few reasons, but still like the idea of SAIS.

The students I met at the D.C. HKS reception were really impressive. Everyone had amazing experiences to talk about and I almost wished the admissions people would shut up so that I could talk with my peers. This was something I hadn't felt at a school yet.

The courses at HKS are better suited to me. I have a background in Econ and dread the prospect of not passing out of some of the Int. Econ courses at SAIS - essentially repeating my undergrad education. At HKS, I am going to try and pass out of some core classes but if I can't, I will take the A section versions that use more math and are more rigorous. This is made possible by the breadth of courses offered at HKS. Take a look at the course listing, it is amazing. I know we're all specializing in grad school, but I am definitely going to take something new.

I like D.C. a lot but I grew up close to the city and have lived there for the last two years, further I plan to work for the gov't after my MPP. Personally, I think it will help me to leave for a few years (with an internship in between) and get some perspective. Cambridge is a pretty sweet place to get a breather.

Ultimately, Linden, you have to make a decision like this one and no one can tell you how you should weigh all these attributes. I think all these discussions about $$ are important but I would hate to have gone to the wrong school because of $. For example, after visiting GPPI I was impressed by the community but knew that it wasn't quite what I am looking for for grad school.

I feel for you, but these are good decisions to have to make. Just go with something and know that it was your best guess when you made it. Some of the best advice I have received is: research the hell out of it, make your decision, and don't look back.

[Stephen33]

As the poster above suggested, this is a personal decision for which there is no one "right" answer. Personally, I would not pay too much for perceived reputation, because I think its practical value tends to be greatly overstated. As I've said before on this board, my experience has been that a great name may help you get an interview (particularly if you have no or little experience), but once you have worked for a while, others will focus entirely on your demonstrated abilities & accomplishments, rather than where you went to school. Truthfully, in the working world, very few people care where you went to school.

A great "brand name" degree is a legitimate source of personal pride and satisfaction, but I would caution against choosing a school based upon an expectation that it will confer significant professional advantages- particularly when your alternatives are other well-respected schools.

Just my $0.02. Good luck to all with your decisions.

[jduds]

So does going to Harvard matter? That seems to be the "at least $50K question."

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself that. If you plan to pursue a career abroad, I would argue it will carry a whole lot more weight than any other school Even schools with the same prestige in the States, don't really carry the same cachet abroad - if you talk about Yale, Stanford, MIT, or Princeton, you tend to get blank stares. So is that worth $50k+?

I think you need to ask yourself that. If you took out the name Harvard, would it still be worth it to attend the Kennedy School. Would the academic rigor, research opportunities, internship opportunities be worth the additional cost?

Normally, I'm of the belief that you shouldn't let money factor into academic decisions. But when you start talking about 100k+ in loans, I think you have to at least consider it. I know people who have taken out that much money to fund graduate school. An old boss took over 100k to get his MBA from NYU, but then he got a job on Wall Street, and was able to pay it off in about 2 years. I mean Obama likely took out that much to go to HLS. And while I think the decision may be prudent if you're getting a law degree or an MBA, if you're getting into public policy, I'm not sure if the additional loans are worth it.

I personally didn't apply to HKS. Mainly, because the application was a beast, and some of my friends suggested the academic rigor may be slightly dubious. But I'm in a similar position. SIPA was my number one choice going into this process, I got in, but with no money. And I don't think it's worth it to take out almost six figures in loans to go to Columbia, although their course catalog looks amazing, and you can cross-register at the grad school, the business school, and the law school. I haven't completely excluded it, but it's definitely dropped down the list.

At the end of the day, this is a very personal decision. I'm not sure how much having 80k+ in loans will measurably change your choices and decisions in future. I'm sure there has to be a calculator that can tell you how much your monthly payments will likely be. But having that much debt will likely impact some of your choices about what kind of job to take, where to live, and probably more important family choices as well. That being said, if you go there to visit, and you feel in your gut that it just fits, then you should consider going for it.

[deechi]

jduds said:

So does going to Harvard matter? That seems to be the "at least $50K question."

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself that. If you plan to pursue a career abroad, I would argue it will carry a whole lot more weight than any other school Even schools with the same prestige in the States, don't really carry the same cachet abroad - if you talk about Yale, Stanford, MIT, or Princeton, you tend to get blank stares. So is that worth $50k+?

This is an honest question: What people are you dealing with overseas that they haven't heard of Yale, Stanford, MIT and Princeton? I'd conjecture to say that these aren't the people you are going to be working for.

Now, if 50k is worth being able to impress people in some backwater bar then by all means, but in places like DC, you get asked "What you do" not "where you went to school".

[linden]

Hi Linden - firstly want to thank you for all your comments on the boards, I've found them really useful as I try and make up my mind too. I'm in a similar situation, trying to decide between:

Maxwell, Syracuse - full-ride and stipend, 12 month course (no debt, no expenditure)

HKS - no Harvard funding, but $40k scholarship for first year ($60k debt, plus spending my $20k savings and working)

Columbia - same as above, but possibility of some second year funding

As an international I'm heavily leaning towards Harvard. In your case I think Georgetown does have a good reputation internationally by those in the know (and definitely more than GW). The difference is that everyone has heard of Harvard, and (I think) it will start to pay for itself in your future career. However if you want to work in DC then I imagine there are hugh benefits from actually being there including contacts/internships.

Let me know what you decide!

Scotty: Thanks for your response. I do remember your question, and I remember saying you should attend HKS because the Maxwell name is not well-known internationally. Since I will be DC-based for some time, I am not too concerned about international reputation, although I want to keep my options open. Thanks for weighing in on Georgetown, though! It makes me feel a bit better that someone else feels the school has a good reputation overseas.

[pika2]

if you talk about Yale, Stanford, MIT, or Princeton, you tend to get blank stares. So is that worth $50k+?

...yeah, I think that's definitely an overstatement, but I do agree that Harvard carries w/ it a level of prestige that no other school in the world can match.

However, as a lot of people have already mentioned on this board, I think that the most important thing to consider when choosing a graduate program is to determine whether it truly fits your goals and interests. I didn't think Harvard KSG was a good fit for me b/c of the very limited number of IR courses it offers in comparison to many other top IR schools. Plus, most of the courses offered w/in the International and Global Affairs program seemed to deal with some aspect of US foreign policy, which I guess makes sense since KSG is first and foremost a public policy school.

[linden]

For example, after visiting GPPI I was impressed by the community but knew that it wasn't quite what I am looking for for grad school.

therunaround:

No, no, you're supposed to chime in and say HKS or bust! On a more serious note, what was the difference between the students at the GPPI open house and the HKS students? (I was not able to participate in open houses.) For example, was it the quality of work experience? Level of expression? On what characteristics did they differ?

[linden]

This is an honest question: What people are you dealing with overseas that they haven't heard of Yale, Standford, MIT and Princeton? I'd conjecture to say that these aren't the people you are going to be working for.

Now, if 50k is worth being able to impress people in some backwater bar then by all means, but in places like DC, you get asked "What you do" not "where you went to school".

Deechi: Thanks for your response. I think my perspective is a bit different than yours. I think what you have done with your degree is important, but so is where that degree is from. For example, in the federal government agency where I work, individuals rotate from assignment to assignment every few years. In addition to listing the person's work history at the department, the form that prospective supervisors receive also includes the person's schooling. Interestingly enough, the sheet does not include information about the person's outside work history.

So, yes, I will admit: prestige matters tons to me. And, while I realize that Georgetown does not have the weight Harvard has, I am trying to get a sense from other gradcafe posters of how Georgetown is perceived where they have worked and lived.

[fes_alum]

Hi Linden,

I recently had a discussion with a friend about the cost of a Harvard education and the amount of debt that I will accumulate. Fortunately I am likely to get some external funding and will only need to borrow about $25-30K per year. However, added to the $50K in loans that I already have, I am looking to graduate from HKS with a debt of $100-$110K. But as my friend put it, "if people borrow $250K+ for a home, how is borrowing $100K for a college education any different?" Sure you might own a house for the rest of your life, but don't you "own" your education for the rest of your life as well? The way I see it, a Harvard degree will be just another investment that will hopefully provide some decent returns in the future. Well I don't expect a HKS MPP degree to pay anymore than a MPP/MPA degree from another institution, I hope that it will be an asset when finding that "dream" job upon graduation by providing the tools, skills, and experience needed to stand apart from the rest. For me, HKS's program was the best fit overall for a variety of reasons and my decision to attend was made even before I knew about financial aid awards. Like others have alluded to on this post, you have to decided which program is the best fit for your future career goals (name recognition and prestige aside).

Good luck making your decision and I hope to see you on campus this fall!

[charleyj]

hey linden,

i pm'd you with a couple of thoughts (re: gppi vs. hks). hope they help.

[deechi]

Deechi: Thanks for your response. I think my perspective is a bit different than yours. I think what you have done with your degree is important, but so is where that degree is from. For example, in the federal government agency where I work, individuals rotate from assignment to assignment every few years. In addition to listing the person's work history at the department, the form that prospective supervisors receive also includes the person's schooling. Interestingly enough, the sheet does not include information about the person's outside work history.

So, yes, I will admit: prestige matters tons to me. And, while I realize that Georgetown does not have the weight Harvard has, I am trying to get a sense from other gradcafe posters of how Georgetown is perceived where they have worked and lived.

I'm curious. Why do you think my perspective is so much different? I also work a federal government agency where individuals rotate from assignment to assignment every few years. Maybe it's been because I've been on the side of actually looking at those personal work histories and making decisions? I'd argue that what you have done within the organization is vastly more important than where you went to school 4-6 years ago.

No one is going to look at your record and say "Well, this guy has been toiling away in mediocracy for the past half decade but..oooh he went to Harvard".

In regards to Georgetown Prestigue, I'm pretty positive you'll find all you need. I work in IR so I'm more familiar with the MSFS program, but you'll make enough connections in DC and in DC Georgetown is generally considered the most prestigious.

[Stephen33]

Deechi, your impressions/experiences match my own. I have been on the other side of the table in hiring decisions for several years (not in D.C., but with in a fairly large government internationally) and, once a certain standard of educational quality is met, the actual school attended is irrelevant in almost all cases; for a candidate with a few years of experience, I'd say it is completely irrelevant. I know this is hard for some to believe, but it is true, at least in the world of government.

I would urge prospective students to take with a large grain of salt the various claims of admissions offices/alumni with regard to the purported "unique" virtues of their respective schools. You are on the receiving end of marketing campaigns, and the claims should be judged accordingly. It is far better to listen to the views of knowledgeable individuals (Deechi, you strike me as one such) who have no stake in your decisions - including no personal connections to the schools under consideration.

[younglions]

Linden -

Like, others have said, ultimately this decision is up to you (and also, you're married, right? what does your husband think about the choices?). But, if I had your offers, I would probably go to GWU or GPPI. We're not talking about HLS or HBS school here. Ultimately, the end game for most of us is to get a better job in public service, and prestige in public service occupations generally doesn't go as far as it does in the private world. If you're interested in staying in Washington D.C., or really anywhere on the east coast, everybody who matters is going to know and respect the GWU and Georgetown brands.

Also, I'd like to point out that the analogy of making an investment in a house has one critical aspect missing: you can buy the house for 250K on one side of the street, but on the other side of the street, there is a quite nice house that the owner is offering to you for free.

Anyways, good luck. Although there is certainly a "best option" of these three for you, each one of them is a great one. If you choose Harvard as your best option, I'm sure everything will work out for you. Harvard has a 60% matriculation rate, which by "government affairs" standards is HUGE. Obviously the school must be doing something right if the majority of presumably informed decision-makers are deciding to go there. Just don't let lay-person prestige blind you.

[linden]

Like, others have said, ultimately this decision is up to you (and also, you're married, right? what does your husband think about the choices?)

younglions:

Thanks for your comments. (Oh, and my husband thinks that the best option is for WWS to take me off the wait list! :wink:)

Stephen33 and deechi:

Thanks for offering your input. Won't we all be glad when this is over?

[Stephen33]

Thanks, Linden. Good luck with your decision. Try to remember that these are all good choices. I have little doubt that, whatever you decide, you will end up with a very successful career.

[cerise]

Linden,

Maybe I'm way off here, but it seems like you really want to go to Harvard and you're searching for a way to justify it. Intellectually, rationally, I'd say one of the other two schools is a better choice. You already know all the reasons why that's true. All the things people have said on this board about how prestige doesn't matter that much in the long run, how debt can curtail your freedom and make you miserable, how both your other options are nothing to sneeze at-- well, all of those things are true.

But. You have one chance to do this. And if Harvard means as much to you as it seems it does, don't be afraid to take that emotional reaction into account. You don't want to be bitter about this 10 years from now every time you run into someone at a party and they mention they went to KSG. I'm not saying that'll happen; only you know how much this really matters to you. But I guess what I'm saying is that I would maybe take a minute to think about this not in terms of career prospects, but in terms of happiness. Which will matter more to you in the future: being debt-free, or having a Harvard education? It's a completely personal choice, and the right choice for you may or may not be the rational one.

For what it's worth, I generally feel like debt isn't worth it in the long run. And my justification for that, as I've said before, is that it really limits your options. But if you walk away from what you really want, you're limiting yourself anyway. Whether you want to limit yourself now for more freedom later, or do it the other way around-- that's up to you. But if you have a gut feeling, pay attention.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Sorry if it's presumptuous.

No matter what you choose, good luck!

[linden]

cerise:

You are right. I do want to go to HKS; but the debt is too much. (I would prefer to attend WWS, but that is out of my hands.) I am actually trying to justify my hope that GPPI is a good enough substitute. I can only hope that in the future I won't regret not having attended. Thanks for your comments.

[nab190]

Look, its not like your choice is between Harvard and Boise State. Georgetown is a widely respected school and has an extremely reputable program and a great location. If its the emotional attachment to Harvard that is compelling you to go, then by all means, I can completely understand why Harvard is such a tempting option. But if you're only worried about reputation, then I feel like your focusing on the wrong thing. When you're dealing with top ranked programs, going to Harvard vs Georgetown isn't what's going to get you places, its the work you do while you're there. If its honestly worth it to you to go to Harvard (and you feel like its the only place you'll be able to accomplish what you want), then go, take advantage of what they offer you. But I agree with other posters, logically, rationally, GWU or Georgetown makes sense, both financially and professionally.

[therunaround]

No, no, you're supposed to chime in and say HKS or bust! On a more serious note, what was the difference between the students at the GPPI open house and the HKS students? (I was not able to participate in open houses.) For example, was it the quality of work experience? Level of expression? On what characteristics did they differ?

Haha, Linden you know I want you to go to Harvard! There are a bunch of future GPPI students on this board, it sounds like, so I don't want to offend any of them. I guess I was more impressed by the HKS admits I've met than disappointed with the GPPI ones. On average, the HKS students were more experienced (from Obama campaign work to thinktanks to Fulbrights abroad) and generally much more personable and comfortable with themselves. That's on my interpretation of the average! But I was just more impressed by the Harvard students, as I would have expected to be. It's a very selective group and everyone is there for a reason. That is the case at GPPI and all the other top places, but it is even more so the case at HKS. Selectivity can surely be a bad thing and foster homogeneity, but in this situation, I think it helps to create the ideal learning environment.

[stigMPA]

It's not as though the only time your school choice matters is when an interviewer is looking over your resume. The quality of alumni networks are important, too.

I'm getting the impression, though, that you want to choose Harvard for mostly emotional reasons. While that is legitimate in its own way, you have to put a pricetag on that emotional value and ask serious questions about how good of a match the place really is for you. If it's perfect and will give you the psychological comfort in the search for your dream job, then I say go for it. Otherwise you have other options that would be more than adequate.

[MCneelified06]

Linden -- I also hope that you make it off the WWS wait list!

I probably sound like a broken record here, but I think there is something... interesting about the fact that HKS is actually profitable for the university (that is, public policy students subsidize others). I truly believe that an institution that cared about public service would correct this immediately.

I think HKS could go one of two ways in the next 15 years or so. Either they get their act together and radically increase funding (which two current students and two alumni all independently told me is their #1 priority), and continue to be the premier public service school, or they continue as they are and lose a handful of the best students every year (like you, maybe!) until people finally catch on that it's wrong and actually vaguely immoral for them to be so cheap to public policy students -- eventually losing control of their brand (of course there is a "floor" on the brand because of the Harvard name).

No one has a crystal ball so who knows how it will ultimately play out. But think of it this way -- if scenario #2 happens, your degree will actually degrade in value over time relative to other schools. If scenario #1 happens, you still will be in debt while HKS uses your money to help people younger than you attend the school.

The thing is, no one can ever take away the fact that you were admitted to Harvard. Whether or not you actually attend is irrelevant to that accomplishment. If you feel the need to awkwardly mention that fact every time you explain where you went to school (if you choose somewhere else), and save 80K in the process, that would be my advice.

Hopefully you get off the WWS waitlist and this is all moot!

[ebee]

Georgetown.

Sure Harvard has a good name, but that name is really only valuable for but so long. The debt, on the other hand, will last FOREVER (ok, not forever, but it will definitely outlast Harvard's name value towards your career in my opinion).

[linden]

I probably sound like a broken record here, but I think there is something... interesting about the fact that HKS is actually profitable for the university (that is, public policy students subsidize others). I truly believe that an institution that cared about public service would correct this immediately.

MCneelified06:

Thanks for your comments. I have been wondering if my tuition at Harvard would subsidize scholarship recipients... Nevertheless, HKS wait-listed students will be glad to know I have made up my mind to decline admission at HKS. I would have loved to attend HKS, but not under these conditions.

And, with the terrible financial aid packages Harvard is giving out, I am not sure that I will come off the wait list at WWS. But, at least I got further in this process than I had expected. At the end of this admission cycle, it will be interesting to see whether the economic crisis--and our society's new lack of appetite for debt--affects admissions at HKS. Good luck at WWS!

ebee:

Thanks for your input. You're right. The debt won't last forever, but it does feel as if it will last forever.