Feeling betrayed

[Boron]

I'm currently a M.S. student at a certain institution and is aiming to be completed by this May. As some already know, I am currently in the process of applying to PhD programs for Fall 2014. I am only doing this after my PI stated he has no funding to support my further studies.

 

However, I am currently feeling a bit betrayed. I worked my butt off and am currently working on a project I personally proposed, which is currently producing very promising results. Today, I had a talk with him, where he was asking me about graduating, and suddenly tells me he has taken a new PhD student in my area of study, and he would want me to train him to work on my project. I really don't know what to say. He told me he didn't have funding, but then takes a new PhD student? And to take over on the project I proposed?

 

Anyone have any similar experience? I'm just hoping now to just graduate and move on to a better place.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Boron

[Usmivka]

Is the other student coming in with external funding or a department fellowship?

[TakeruK]

That sucks. Usually professors will say "Unfortunately, I don't have funding to take on more students" when they really mean something like [sorry for being super blunt] "I don't have enough funding for a student of your skill level." It's really a way to say no to someone without making it about the applicant. Or, it might be like Usmivka said and this student has an external source of funding (or has a good chance of getting it), or maybe even internal funding from the University. Or, this student may be interesting enough to the professor that he/she is willing to move things around in their budget to fit this in. Or, the prof might have planned for this student to join the lab a long time ago, and because of that, had put money aside so that they were no longer able to fund you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say your feelings of betrayal are invalid! I would feel the same way and I sympathize with the crappy situation. However, I also don't think the prof has done anything really wrong. There was no promise of a PhD project in the future and so they have the right to hire/pick the PhD student they want the most for their lab, and unfortunately it was not you. It might also depend on each school/lab but generally the ideas that you come up with while working for a school/lab will belong to the school/lab, not you, so I think it's also usually okay if the project will transition from being what you work on to what this new student work on. I agree it's no fun to have to train someone to basically replace you!

 

However, the lab should still give credit where it is due and if you came up and designed this idea, you should be involved in some way (unless the project significantly changes after you leave). So, now would be a very good time to talk to your PI and lay out an agreement/plan on what is expected of you to graduate and what is "extra" stuff (like training the new PhD student). In this plan, you should make it clear whether or not you will be contributing to any papers that come out of this work and whether you will be a coauthor. Maybe it will work out that you can still finish one small part of the project and write that up while the PhD student does the further analysis and writes up the later papers. You definitely should come to an agreement now (and get it in writing) about whether or not you will be a coauthor on the results of your proposed ideas.

[MarcusPhcerius]

I think what TakeruK said covers anything, everything and beyond what I could've hoped to extend to you. I'm sorry that this situation happened to you, and you should definitely feel betrayed.

[Chemcki]

_{Well these things happen, the important thing is to look forward. I will recommend you to make sure you get the credit you deserve. You need to make a deal with your professor and ensure your name on the future publication. For I know people who did a lot of work left the lab and never even appeared in the acknowledgements, if your professor still pays you do what he asks you to do, afterall you are probably off to a better school, and if whoever inherit your work can finish your work you have a publication. To me that does not sound so bad.} 

 

_{In my own experience, I gladly did whatever asked, ensured a publication, graduated and now I am interviewing with a much much better school. I would not go back to my original lab even if they pay me double. There are so many opportunities out there for people who have ideas like you, and you will be better off working for someone who doesn't have "funding" problems.} 

Edited January 31, 2014 by Chemcki

[Boron]

Thanks for your messages guys. I really think you all are right, and I should just look about going on to the next chapter in life.

 

As for whether there is any external support for the new student, I have no clue. I have never met this person yet, and I don't know much. Other people in the group doing my field of research doesn't even know there will be a new student (I guess I was the first to be informed). However, I know my department has a surplus of first years this year, as more students accepted the offer than expected (they send about 100 acceptances, expecting about 30-40 to accept. However, they got about 50-60 students this year), which may be why I was never given an opportunity to stay.

 

As for future publications, I should talk to the professor about soon. I know for sure I will get one publication out, as I am currently co-writing the paper (one of the older PhD students helped with half the analyzing). However, I believe more papers can come out of this, as I think this class of structures can be further looked into, and to me, more promising results can come out.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Boron

[aberrant]

Usually professors will say "Unfortunately, I don't have funding to take on more students" when they really mean something like [sorry for being super blunt] "I don't have enough funding for a student of your skill level." It's really a way to say no to someone without making it about the applicant. 

 

Where did you get this idea from?

 

I simply don't think Boron's professors have to sugarcoat the situation, such that /she doesn't have "enough funding for his/her skill level". If a PI has money to take a grad student, s/he would. If a PI thinks that s/he can only afford someone at a high skill level, who would probably a postdoc, then s/he would also refuse taking a student unless the student has external funding -- this is pretty common from labs with few funding, and that is especially true with the current sequestration and economy.

 

I would be indifferent in this situation -- my publication(s) will be there, I'll get strong LOR / reference letter from my PI, and most importantly, if I do have a high skill level, I will succeed regardless of the environment.

 

By the way, a lot of us has been scooped by our competitors on our project(s) that we have to switch to something new or something else. You should be happy that your project is working out and making results. Especially if it can shift the paradigm in the field because you'll definitely get more citations in a long run from your "proposed" work.

[Quantum Buckyball]

Where did you get this idea from?

 

I simply don't think Boron's professors have to sugarcoat the situation, such that /she doesn't have "enough funding for his/her skill level". If a PI has money to take a grad student, s/he would. If a PI thinks that s/he can only afford someone at a high skill level, who would probably a postdoc, then s/he would also refuse taking a student unless the student has external funding -- this is pretty common from labs with few funding, and that is especially true with the current sequestration and economy.

 

I would be indifferent in this situation -- my publication(s) will be there, I'll get strong LOR / reference letter from my PI, and most importantly, if I do have a high skill level, I will succeed regardless of the environment.

 

By the way, a lot of us has been scooped by our competitors on our project(s) that we have to switch to something new or something else. You should be happy that your project is working out and making results. Especially if it can shift the paradigm in the field because you'll definitely get more citations in a long run from your "proposed" work.

 

I don't think aberrant is completely wrong about this. I know a couple of professors are very short on funding and yet they're always willing to take in very good students each year...

 

"there is always a spot for good students"

[Quantum Buckyball]

Thanks for your messages guys. I really think you all are right, and I should just look about going on to the next chapter in life.

 

As for whether there is any external support for the new student, I have no clue. I have never met this person yet, and I don't know much. Other people in the group doing my field of research doesn't even know there will be a new student (I guess I was the first to be informed). However, I know my department has a surplus of first years this year, as more students accepted the offer than expected (they send about 100 acceptances, expecting about 30-40 to accept. However, they got about 50-60 students this year), which may be why I was never given an opportunity to stay.

 

As for future publications, I should talk to the professor about soon. I know for sure I will get one publication out, as I am currently co-writing the paper (one of the older PhD students helped with half the analyzing). However, I believe more papers can come out of this, as I think this class of structures can be further looked into, and to me, more promising results can come out.

 

This happened to my cohort class and the cohort class from last year, somehow we ended up with too many students and not enough of professors and group spot. Some people decided to transfer or drop out after their first year, and some decided to switch to a different division.

 

It is really hard to know how many students you'll get each year...

 

Have you talked to your PI about the potential journal where you're submitting your manuscript to? Some professors are very stubborn and unwilling to submit papers to mid/low tier journals even the results are good because the finding aren't that new/exciting, or the techniques aren't that novel. This is a norm for most of well established professors... 

Edited February 2, 2014 by Quantum Buckyball

[St Andrews Lynx]

Another possible explanation is that this PI committed to the new PhD student a while back and then told you that he didn't have any (more) funding. Or else a grant unexpectedly came through. Funding situations can change fairly quickly. 

 

There is also sometimes Departmental politics at work - I know of an example where a professor said that he only had funding/space to take on x students this year...but then there were a couple of incoming students left without a research group and so he was persuaded to take on x+1, perhaps unwillingly. 

[TakeruK]

Where did you get this idea from?

 

I simply don't think Boron's professors have to sugarcoat the situation, such that /she doesn't have "enough funding for his/her skill level". If a PI has money to take a grad student, s/he would. If a PI thinks that s/he can only afford someone at a high skill level, who would probably a postdoc, then s/he would also refuse taking a student unless the student has external funding -- this is pretty common from labs with few funding, and that is especially true with the current sequestration and economy.

 

To answer your question, I got the idea from seeing it happen. Not all graduate students are equally skilled. If a professor knows he/she has funding for only one more graduate student, they might have a "lower limit" in mind for what kind of skills/how skilled an incoming graduate student might need to be. So, it is possible that the OP didn't meet this standard and the POI was willing to wait another year for more applicants than to take a student at the OP's level. From experience at smaller schools, I've talked to profs that were looking for students, interviewed a bunch, and then decided that they didn't want any of the applicants this year. 

 

I don't think it's so strange to think about a case where the admission requirement varies from year to year. At my current school, we've accepted far fewer people this year compared to previous years (but not abnormal compared to the long term record) because of current capacity as well as current uncertainty of the future of NASA funding planetary sciences. It is possible that someone who was rejected this year could have been accepted in the past 2 years with exactly the same record. 

 

It's probably more likely in the OP's case that the POI had X spots free for students, and compared to all the new people applying, the OP was less qualified, so the POI decided to take on a new student instead of keeping a Masters student. 

[Quantum Buckyball]

To answer your question, I got the idea from seeing it happen. Not all graduate students are equally skilled. If a professor knows he/she has funding for only one more graduate student, they might have a "lower limit" in mind for what kind of skills/how skilled an incoming graduate student might need to be. So, it is possible that the OP didn't meet this standard and the POI was willing to wait another year for more applicants than to take a student at the OP's level. From experience at smaller schools, I've talked to profs that were looking for students, interviewed a bunch, and then decided that they didn't want any of the applicants this year. 

 

I don't think it's so strange to think about a case where the admission requirement varies from year to year. At my current school, we've accepted far fewer people this year compared to previous years (but not abnormal compared to the long term record) because of current capacity as well as current uncertainty of the future of NASA funding planetary sciences. It is possible that someone who was rejected this year could have been accepted in the past 2 years with exactly the same record. 

 

It's probably more likely in the OP's case that the POI had X spots free for students, and compared to all the new people applying, the OP was less qualified, so the POI decided to take on a new student instead of keeping a Masters student. 

 

 

I know a couple of professors in my program that were looking to take in new students and changed their mind in the end. They didn't have any funding issues, it was because they weren't satisfied with the students who were interested in joining their group. The students were lack of necessary skills (i.e. programming, advanced level of math and physics) and background to take over an existing project(s), .

[Waters]

Sorry. Wrong thread.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Waters

[Boron]

Thanks for all the comments on the thread. I really appreciate it. As for why he didn't choose to keep me, I may never know. What I do know at the end of the day is that he didn't want me enough, which I personally think it's his loss.

Again, I have yet to speak and meet with this new person, so I can't say much about why he got the job over me.

As for the project I am working on and the paper I am currently writing, we have spoken before about submitting it to Chemistry of materials, so I hope it does get approved.

[CHM GIRL]

I was in a similar situation last year. My professor promised to take me as a PhD when funding became available. Funding became available and then he went recruiting new graduate students. In my department Master's students are seen as free labor that can be abused. Sometimes you get screwed. My best advice get out and find a professor who will appreciate you.