Passing and and graduation rates

[Guest Diane]

Now that most of us know where they'll go next year, I wonder how many of you are thinking about the Qualifying Exams, Oral Exams, at the programs you will attend. Out of curiosity, I already started to glance at some of the books recommened for reading.

Some preparatory books mention that very few students manage to pass QEs, or such, and fewer graduate. I do not know whether it is to instill fear on the new students to buy more books, or there's some truth to it. Does any of you know anything about the pass/fail rates, or even graduation rates at these graduate institutions? I do not know much, but it would be useful to know whether it is 9/10 or 2/10 students that graduate. If you have any idea where to find such statistics, please share.

[pistolwink]

According to an advisor, speaking very generally, about half of the people who enter PhD programs don't finish the Masters. Of those who continue, half either bail out immediately or don't get to the dissertator phase for whatever reason. And of those left, half never finish their dissertations. Heh.

However, I don't think this is a result of qualifying exams being so hard that people can't pass them - I think it's more a matter of people deciding grad school, academia, etc. is not for them (and then there's always the possibility of family commitments, personal issues, or what have you. Apparently life happens.). Some MA qualifying exams are nothing more than checks on a form on the way to the PhD (not in my program, unfortunately!), and others are basically conversations with a roomful of advisors (I've been told they often devolve into debates among faculty with the examinee watching, bemused). And even if one doesn't pass the first time around, he or she is often just told some areas where he or she needs further reading - I'm sure, though, that what happens next in such a scenario varies greatly from field to field and program to program.

[Guest butterfly]

Additionally, I would like to know for those of you who are accepted to a straight PhD program--do you have to maintain a certain average throughout the MA stage, and then of course, there's the passing of that.

It's too bad that so many people drop out, while so many aren't even admitted to the programs they want. I know the programs expect it, but I mean, they are literally banking on the kids they accept, aren't they? Is it better to accept a hotshot that will drop out/burnout after the MA or person B who is slow but steady. Of course, one can't predict the future and that's part of the problem.

[Guest butterfly]

Having said that, I do agree it's probably more 2/10 than 9/10. I know a lot of people who dropped out (in English). They went right after college, and I think the shock, competition, and politics were unexpected issues (esp the politics). It's hard to know what one wants at 22 anyway. That's why it's always encouraged to take a few years off. I imagine your success rate in general would be greater. It's good to taste what's on the other side of academia. And if you've read the applyingtograd thread--a lot of it in the early years involves working in a cubicle, filing, and faxing.

[Guest Shelly]

.... I already started to glance at some of the books recommened for reading....

Could you recommend any good books to us?

I posted somewhere that in the program I'm going to 7 out of 9 dropped out in the first couple of years. This was a few years ago. But the cohort the year before that only something like 3 out of 12 dropped out.

[Guest Diane]

I just asked my future department about the Qualifying Exams, and they told me what parts of the subject are tested and what books are recommended for preparation. Some departments post them online. Check yours and if there's nothing online, ask the graduate secretary.

I do not know any statistics about the attrition rate in my program. Is it a sensible question to ask the secretary? I do not want them to think I am already worrying about this though.

[Guest GUEST]

I do not know any statistics about the attrition rate in my program. Is it a sensible question to ask the secretary? I do not want them to think I am already worrying about this though.

I think this is a sensible question. I asked this of programs I was considering because it was important to me. If a lot of students leave (or are failing out), this says something about the program.

[Guest hydsnare]

WARNING - large post

thought this might help - since the q was about attrition in doctoral programs. this is from a study done by a dr. wendy carter - i saw this at another site.

National Attrition rates

The national attrition rate across disciplines has averaged around 50 percent. Some

departments’ attrition rates are even higher (Nelson & Lovitts, 2001; Kang, 2004; Lovitts, 1996).

Lovitts (2001) in her study of 816 graduate students at two distinguished research universities,

one a private institution in a large urban center, the other a public university in a rural setting,

identified a 33% attrition rate at the rural university and a 68% attrition rate at the urban

university. Lovitts’ study included students from nine different departments and concluded that

“attrition is not discipline specific.

[History_Nerd]

Good post, hydsnare. Thanks.

[morfinx]

Good info hydnsare. I can't speak for other sciences but I know for engineering, the undergrad programs are generally speaking very challenging. The undergrad attrition rate is up to 70% (71% in 2004 at my school), so those that made it out are already hardened with the work load and the stress for 5 yrs. I always joke about the lack of free time/personal/love life, perenial sleep deprvation, and constant stress. So to me, grad school is just going to more of the same. But I imagine for some other discplines, the amount of work involved in grad school may come as a shock. I think this may explain the lower attrition rate in sciences.