my chance in Comparative Literature PhD?

[nimhicaz]

Hi,

I am writing this post to get some recommendations about my chance to get in a Comparative Literature PhD program in the US. Firstly, I am an international applicant applying from Turkey with an irrelevant BA which is Economics. This year, I am graduating from Economics and have to make a decision about my future.

Let me tell my background, and then I will ask some questions. I have an advanced level of English as well as an intermediate knowledge of German with an A2 certificate which I received in an exam offered by Goethe Institut. I have also reading knowledge of Ottoman Turkish which is written in Arabic alphabet. My GPA would be between 2,97 and 3.02. Of course I hope it to be higher than 3 and work for it. We'll see what happens... Above all, I have a big enthusiasm for Literature PhD and to chance my major.

I would like to attend an MA program here in Cultural Studies or Turkish Literature. I want to get in Cultural Studies department of a well-known university which includes 3 professors who hold PhD degree in Comparative Literature from top American Universities (Yale, Chicago and Indiana-Bloomington). So I think that I can receive a good experience in Literature if I can get acceptance. And most importantly, I strongly believe that my GPA in graduate would be good. (suppose higher than 3.5)

I am interested in Modern German and Turkish Literature, Film Studies, Ethnicity and Discrimination.

I should also emphasize that I did not take related courses in BA level, but I will take them in gradute.

In the light of this information, what would you recommend? Does coming from an irrelevant discipline decrease my chanceor can I improve my proficiency with an MA in Cultural Studies? Whta should I do now? Learning more langauges, improving German? I am just curious about your recommendations and afraid that I will not have an oppurtunity to be admitted. I wrote to Professors and received some good e-mails and a pessimist e-mail from a Turkish professor. But I think she could not understand that I want to do a graduate study here in Turkey. Here is her reply to me.

"

I am delighted about your enthusiasm for working on a Ph.D. in Comparative

Literature. However, in order to have a realistic chance in the US your

grades would have to be excellent and the letters of support outstanding.

Above all, you would have to have a training in literature and literary

criticism/theory that would convince the committee members of your ability

to keep up with the requirements here. Without fulfilling these

requirements, I am afraid that you would not have chance of being selected

into the next cohort. I wish you good luck and stamina in trying to change

the path of your education and career."

And now my mind got confused, I need your help.

[teaganc]

I don't understand what is pessimist about that email, to begin with. Your grades would have to be excellent, and you would need great LORs, and obviously you need more research experience than enthusiasm for literature. It also didn't mention anything about you wanted to study in Turkey, so I don't know where you got the idea that your intentions confused this person. A lot of international students apply to US PhD programs with a MA from their country, so that doesn't seem that odd.

As far as learning more languages, while it probably wouldn't hurt to have more languages, chances are you could be spending that time actually learning about literature, theory, etc. Most people get a BA in lit before they even enter a MA program, so you are starting at a disadvantage. GPA-wise, 3.5 is way too low to be your goal for graduate school. In many graduate programs (in the US) less than an A in a course denotes that you've seriously done something wrong or failed to grasp the material.

[nimhicaz]

thanks for your message

i got this idea because graduate study should increase my chance as far as i know. i am planning a master but she does not mention something like this "MA in Cultural Studies helps and can outweigh your low grades". I obtained from her e-mail that undergraduate GPA is everything. But I can not do anything for my past and just wonder if I stand any chance.

I got your recommendation about the fact that 3.5 is not enough. I want the best, we will see. However, grading policy does not work here like in the US. We have more strict teachers, and it was really hard for me to get A's in undergad classes. (3.5 is really perfect for my school)

[sonofcioran]

I'm sorry if this is overly blunt, but because of the language barrier, you don't seem to be understanding what you were told by an administrator and other people on this board. Maybe there's some confusion. The administrator was 100% right.

I know sometimes the idioms and customs of other cultures are very difficult to understand. Other languages can be tough. I've been trying to learn Japanese and I speak a bit of Russian. I'm constantly baffled amongst native speakers. Oh, and then there's my French. I can read it fine, but I can't speak it without getting laughed at by native speakers. I have a very noticeable Brooklyn accent. I mispronounce some words and they mean other things. I sound silly in French. Really silly, from what I've been told.

Here's the thing - most students are much more qualified than you are. That includes most international students (who make up a large portion of grad students at most schools). Schools have over 100 candidates for every PhD application. American schools can select the best students.

Your GPA is low (as far as I know Turkish GPAs are x/4), your written English is very bad for a Literature PhD candidate, you've done no research, and you majored in the wrong area.You want to study Comparative Literature, yet you have major problems with written English. I counted 5 major grammatical errors that interfere with comprehension in your posts. 1 of those errors on any written material will likely result in a rejection. If you want to study Literature in America, you will have to learn the English language at a much higher level than you communicate now. You do not have advanced knowledge of English. Whether or not you have an intermediate knowledge of English is debatable. I'm sorry if this sounds overly harsh, but I think it's healthy to have realistic goals. That way, you won't waste your money applying to schools that will take your application fee, then throw out your application. Your English language skills may be acceptable for day-to-day living, but they're just not good enough at the PhD level in a Literature program.

Still, if you're serious about this, take literature classes instead of economics classes. I really think you should consider other options, though.

Good Luck!

[ARTH]

Hi Nimhicaz,

I disagree with sonofcioran. First of all, I find your written English to be excellent considering that English is your second language. It seems to me that the American professor whose response you posted was warning you of the competitive application process for the school with which she was affiliated; however, one might be able to see a Master's degree in literature (or Cultural Studies) as equivalent to "training in literature and literary criticism/theory that would convince the committee members of your ability to keep up with the requirements here."

As I understand it, the school at which you would hope to pursue a Master's degree in Literature has three faculty members who have American PhDs. If you truly feel inspired to pursue a path of literary study at an American school, I would recommend speaking to one (are all) of these professors who are graduates of American programs (if you have not done so already -- perhaps you have!). Since they would be familiar with both the American University system and the system at the university in which they teach, they are probably well positioned to evaluate the appropriateness of a Master's degree at their institution as preparation for an American PhD. Perhaps they have had other students who have pursued degrees at American schools after Master's degrees from their university.

It is probably true that American schools put a lot of emphasis on GPA, but it is also true that comparative literature programs must receive applications from many international students, and therefore one would HOPE that they would be sensitive to discrepancies in standards of evaluation -- your recommenders could even address this issue in their letters of recommendation if they felt that were necessary. I have heard that international grades tend to be lower than grades at North American schools due to "grade inflation" at North American schools, though I am in no position to say whether or not this is the case.

I should qualify my rambling advice by saying that I am not an expert on admission standards in US comparative Literature programs! It seems to me though that these Turkish professors with degrees from American schools would be in the best position to advise you on the necessary course of action.

Wishing you the best of luck!

[nimhicaz]

hi again

sonofcioran, thanks for your polite message i said that i am aware that i am not a perfect applicant. i was only curious about my chance to get in any schools in the US. i do not agree with you in some points, however. i am not a beginner in english as you wanted to say , and have no problems in understanding written and spoken english, just explained in my previous message why i thought professor did not get what i have written. i expected her to write something about what graduate study can add to my dossier. but she did not and i meant this. my TOEFL IBT score is 104 (I can improve this in following yrs), and shows my knowledge of English. Also, of course I have another more realistic option, studying Nationalism and Ethnicity in a Socioogy or Anthropology department. I can get in even a Turkish or European university as well, just wanted to learn your ideas. thank you.

and thanks arth, i have already talked to a professor at Sabanci University. In previous years, the department (founded in 2005) sent three graduates to PhD programs in Comparative Literature in the US (Berkeley, NYU and Indiana) This department can be a perfect place for students who plan both CompLit and Sociology PhD since the program covers a wide range of topics and theories.

ok finally, i will try to get in this department for MA. then i will have time to decide.

[marshmallow]

I'm sorry, but I agree with sonofcioran. Your English is muddled and difficult to understand. Your phrasing is very clearly non-native. In order to succeed in an American PhD program, you are going to need more clear and fluent English as well as a higher TOEFL score. Come admissions time, you will be competing with international students who have perfect, native fluency English. If your materials are written like these posts, you won't be able compete. If you can, I'd really recommend that you study abroad in an English speaking country to try to improve your scores and your English.

[nimhicaz]

ok. I am still young and have enough time to improve my skills. (for TOEFL, higher than 104) Otherwise, I can stay here. I love my country :wink:

[Incitatus]

I find it funny that anyone who tries to read Theory would find the original poster's messages difficult to read.

1. Someone pointed out that there were 3 grammar mistakes--any 1 of which would keep the applicant out of a PhD program. Well, I imagine everyone on this forum puts more time into their statements of purpose than they do on posts, right?

2. Language. Your English is excellent, probably a 4 if you use State Department standards. Certainly better than most comparativists speak the primary language they work in. Since Turkish isn't even Indo-European, this is even more impressive.

3. Grades. As someone mentioned, American grades are inflated. A 3.0 from your school is probably very good.

4. If you're interested in Turkish and German literature, why don't you do the MA in Turkey and then apply to US Near Eastern departments or German departments and work with both literatures? Most national lit. departments will welcome comparative work, and you'll have a much better chance of getting a job when you get out.

[glasses]

I wrote to Professors and received some good e-mails and a pessimist e-mail from a Turkish professor. But I think she could not understand that I want to do a graduate study here in Turkey. Here is her reply to me.

"

I am delighted about your enthusiasm for working on a Ph.D. in Comparative

Literature. However, in order to have a realistic chance in the US your

grades would have to be excellent and the letters of support outstanding.

Above all, you would have to have a training in literature and literary

criticism/theory that would convince the committee members of your ability

to keep up with the requirements here. Without fulfilling these

requirements, I am afraid that you would not have chance of being selected

into the next cohort. I wish you good luck and stamina in trying to change

the path of your education and career."

This--what your professor said--is true, as is this from teaganc:

I don't understand what is pessimist about that email, to begin with. Your grades would have to be excellent, and you would need great LORs, and obviously you need more research experience than enthusiasm for literature. It also didn't mention anything about you wanted to study in Turkey, so I don't know where you got the idea that your intentions confused this person. A lot of international students apply to US PhD programs with a MA from their country, so that doesn't seem that odd.

As far as learning more languages, while it probably wouldn't hurt to have more languages, chances are you could be spending that time actually learning about literature, theory, etc. Most people get a BA in lit before they even enter a MA program, so you are starting at a disadvantage. GPA-wise, 3.5 is way too low to be your goal for graduate school. In many graduate programs (in the US) less than an A in a course denotes that you've seriously done something wrong or failed to grasp the material.

I mean, it's not to say that undergrads who major in something different can't get into PhD programs in English or Comp Lit--a friend of mine was a biology undergrad and is finishing up a PhD in English at Harvard. But he certainly had experience in literature despite his major, and his major provided him with a variety of other unique skills. There's a certain knowledge base you're going to need, and you're going to need solid grades--as well as a stellar writing sample and statement of purpose--to show that you have it. Figure out a sub-specialty, and then figure out what your "something special" is. Figure out how your totally unrelated (in your words) undergrad major can work to your advantage.

I'm not going to weigh in about any debates about your written English, so on, so forth, etc., but here's what I think: it's fiercely hard for a US applicant to get into US PhD programs. It's even harder for an international applicant to pull it off. And I can't say definitively whether or not an MA will help: some programs don't even take applicants for a PhD if they already have an MA, where other programs will value it highly. Then again, I have no idea if these same restrictions stand for international MAs . . . I'd suggest checking with departments. And, again, in the spirit of being completely honest, the helpfulness of your MA will depend entirely on the quality of work you do for it.

Your professor may have misunderstood that you intended to do an MA first in Turkey, but the things he or she said were entirely true, and hardly pessimistic, just realistic. I know that professor bugged you with his/her e-mail, but I thoroughly recommend talking to him/her more in detail. It's infinitely important to have someone who can assess you honestly and forthrightly. It's the best way for you to know what to do.

[sonofcioran]

hi again

sonofcioran, thanks for your polite message i said that i am aware that i am not a perfect applicant. i was only curious about my chance to get in any schools in the US. i do not agree with you in some points, however. i am not a beginner in english as you wanted to say , and have no problems in understanding written and spoken english, just explained in my previous message why i thought professor did not get what i have written. i expected her to write something about what graduate study can add to my dossier. but she did not and i meant this. my TOEFL IBT score is 104 (I can improve this in following yrs), and shows my knowledge of English. Also, of course I have another more realistic option, studying Nationalism and Ethnicity in a Socioogy or Anthropology department. I can get in even a Turkish or European university as well, just wanted to learn your ideas. thank you.

and thanks arth, i have already talked to a professor at Sabanci University. In previous years, the department (founded in 2005) sent three graduates to PhD programs in Comparative Literature in the US (Berkeley, NYU and Indiana) This department can be a perfect place for students who plan both CompLit and Sociology PhD since the program covers a wide range of topics and theories.

ok finally, i will try to get in this department for MA. then i will have time to decide.

Well, I think that's more practical.

Still, I think you're overestimating your abilities. TOEFL does not show a comprehensive knowledge of English. It shows a minimal working knowledge for foreign speakers. It's always an accomplishment when you learn to speak another language. I think learning another language is wonderful (and I commend you for that), but when you apply to a Literature program, you need to have more than a working knowledge. You are competing against people who have spoken English their entire life.

You have a bit of difficulty using prepositions. Additionally, you use pronouns without clear antecedents. Sometimes, it's difficult to understand what you're talking about because of unusual diction, too (dossier?). When you, as a candidate, are compared to candidates who speak English as a first language, these errors sudenly become glaring errors. In America, children are generally fairly proficient with pronouns and prepositions by the end of elementary school.

If you're really dead set on this and really think I'm completely wrong (and your professor is wrong, and marshmallow is wrong)- take the GRE subtest in the area. See how that goes.

Your knowledge of English is, like I said, probably fine for day to day living. It would be more than adequate for the study of Engineering, Computer Science, or Economics. It's terrible for someone who is studying the English language, which has a much higher standard. I know plenty of grad students from Russia, China (give or take the liquids), Poland, and India (especially India) who speak fluent English. Many students from India probably speak English better than I do. They're effectively bilingual. You will be competing against them.

Also, like another user said, why not politely e-mail back the professor and ask her for more advice? The advice she gave was good and very polite, you just didn't like it. Who has more experience with universities? The professor - or you? Why would you doubt that advice? She has no reason to lie to you.

Rather than debating whether or not she's right (she is, by the way), why not ask her how you can become a better candidate? Ask her what specific classes might she recommend.

Also, buy a copy of Strunk & White's Elements of Style: 4th Edition. Very informative book.

[nike]

nimhicaz. i think your strong point is knowing other languages than English like Turkish and Germen, which is a plus for comparative studies. I did not major in Lit. in BA myself too, but I will pursue master in Comp. Lit. also next year (and i am an international student as well) I hope to enter PhD is USA as well in the near future. So don't give your hope up, and try to see if a MA in Lit. really interests you.

[nimhicaz]

sonofcioran,

i did not overestimate my abilities. i did want to pursue a degree in sociology or anthropology so as to study racism in which i have done enough research at my former university. then i found complit departments attractive because of their interdisciplinarity and special emphasis on film studies. my first message on this topic aimed to see my chance to get in, not to prove something.

i do not say that you are completely wrong, you were right in many ways. the problem is your style rather than realities.

also, i asked many people and received different opinions, pessimistic and optimistic (like you people do here) i liked professor konuk's mail, by the way, she summarized the things in a realistic way. all i need is this. the thing which disappointed me the most was that she did not mention about MA's contribution. yes, i found her mail pessimistic, does this mean that i did not like it?

when it comes to my knowledge of english, overall you are right about it (nevertheless, i do not agree with this: "whether or not you have an intermediate knowledge of english is debatable". as i said, i have adequate time (maybe 3 yrs) to improve my written and spoken english with the support of graduate study at an english speaking university. is there a difference between "english" and "complit" departments in terms of english level they expect prospective students to have? i think that complit departments should be less strict about it.

anyway, i know admission process is very competitive and probably i will not be an appropriate applicant for american schools. in this case, i will be looking at other options of mine.

the book you recommended seems to be useful for my deficiencies.(downloaded it as pdf) thank you.

[glasses]

is there a difference between "english" and "complit" departments in terms of english level they expect prospective students to have? i think that complit departments should be less strict about it.

This, above, isn't true. Comp lit departments are no less strict about English language proficiency than English departments are. On the other hand, your knowledge of other languages will weigh in far more heavily for Comp Lit admissions than they would for English admissions.

[ARTH]

If you are focusing on literature written in another language in a Comparative Literature Department there is no way that your level of English has to be as strong as a student of English Literature. My guess is that the people suggesting otherwise are not actually comparative literature students, but English Literature students.

It seems this may come as a newsflash to some people, but not all courses offered at American universities are offered in English. French departments offer courses ON French literature IN French. (or German, Italian, Turkish, Japanese). Students read French literature, discuss the literature in French and then they write essays about the literature...IN FRENCH! (or German, Italian, Turkish or Japanese)

Here is a quote from the Harvard University Comparative Literature Department webpage. I chose this department at random and I assume that it's, like, a decent department:

We do not have a single foreign language requirement but we do pay careful attention in evaluating prospective applicants to make sure that they would be able to satisfy our program requirements in a reasonable span of time. Our program requires declaring four languages, with coursework in three of them (one of which may be English). Most students we admit have a solid grounding in one literature and language and have had exposure to another (or more).

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~complit/admis_qna.htm

Please note the bracketed phrase "ONE OF WHICH MAY BE ENGLISH." It is not even a requirement, and certainly not at the time that a student enters the department. If Student A is a native speaker of English, Reads well in Spanish, and studies Korean from scratch, Student B could come in with Fluent Spanish and Italian and study to improve English.

In regards to the following statement:

TOEFL does not show a comprehensive knowledge of English. It shows a minimal working knowledge for foreign speakers.

Consider this from the Comparative Literature at Binghampton Univeristy (they have a specialist in Turkish Literature as google informed me):

International students whose native language is not English, and have not received a degree in the United States, are required to submit Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) scores. The minimum TOEFL score for admission to the Department of Comparative Literature is 30.

http://www2.binghamton.edu/comparative- ... index.html

I don't know here, but it kind of looks like they take the TOEFL test a bit seriously.

Some of this stuff probably depends on the individual school and department, but the categorical statement that comparative literature departments require English language abilities equal to English literature departments is absolutely not true.

It has already been pointed out on this thread that nimhicaz's level of WRITTEN ENGLISH is probably higher than the linguistic ability of most comparative literature students in the literature that they study.

[nimhicaz]

yes arth, that is why i asked this question. complit departments concentrate on different literatures and are good at some. overall, these departments require students to learn at least 2 languages other than english. (by the way, i am just explaining the structure of complit departments for those who are interested in, not talking about me) for example, one can shoose french, german and arabic as his or her areas of interest, then focus on these literatures. in some departments, the relatinship between literature and other disciplines of social sciences is analyzed as well, gender, history, culture, film etc.

yes you are right that there are many turkish students in the department of comparative literature at binghamton university which have a special emphasis on turkish literature. one of its students holding a BA degree in IR has a similar background to me.

and of course toefl matters, otherwise how can they learn the level of applicant in english? in addition, somebody told me that many of complit departments have just started to have an oral interview with potential students -probably to see how good they are in spoken english-

[teaganc]

If you are focusing on literature written in another language in a Comparative Literature Department there is no way that your level of English has to be as strong as a student of English Literature. My guess is that the people suggesting otherwise are not actually comparative literature students, but English Literature students.

It seems this may come as a newsflash to some people, but not all courses offered at American universities are offered in English. French departments offer courses ON French literature IN French. (or German, Italian, Turkish, Japanese). Students read French literature, discuss the literature in French and then they write essays about the literature...IN FRENCH! (or German, Italian, Turkish or Japanese)

This is certainly true; however, to study at an American university, you need a baseline level of English competency. While that baseline may or may not be lower for Comp Lit v. English, it is certainly higher for Comp Lit than for just about any other non-Literature degree you can study.

International students whose native language is not English, and have not received a degree in the United States, are required to submit Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) scores. The minimum TOEFL score for admission to the Department of Comparative Literature is 30.

http://www2.binghamton.edu/comparative- ... index.html

I don't know here, but it kind of looks like they take the TOEFL test a bit seriously.

Here, I think you are confusing what is necessary for what is sufficient; it is necessary that international students score a 30 on the TOEFL, but that does not mean it is sufficient for either admission or success in the program. Most universities also require a 3.0 for admission, but that does not mean that all students with higher than a 3.0 will be admitted, nor that all students who were capable of earning a 3.0 in undergrad are capable of succeeding in an academically rigorous grad program. Furthermore, I don't know what a score of 30 even means, since it's out of 120. Do they mean a 30 on each section--a perfect score? They can't mean just a 30, because that would be such a terrible score as to be essentially meaningless (the lowest category of scores for each section).

I generally agree with sonofcioran that, from what you've presented, you do not make an ideal candidate. Furthermore, if you do not intend to study in English, nor publish in English, perhaps getting a PhD in Turkey makes a lot more sense than applying to US programs. (If you do intend to study/publish in English, the various comments about necessary English skills in this thread obviously apply). Either way, I think that you are not currently in any position to apply to Comp Lit PhD programs, in any country. However, should you gain admissions to a MA program, and succeed in that program well beyond the average student (i.e. stand out in the top 5% at least of your class), this would be sufficient to increase your GPA and secure you appropriate LORs for applying to PhD programs in Turkey or the US (or somewhere else). Outside of that, I think you shouldn't concentrate on anything else (like learning more languages) but improving your English to the level of near-native fluency.

[nike]

i also kind of wondering if there are any difference between English Department and Comp Lit Department in terms of looking for candidates? Are most PhD in English Department in USA native English speakers? I got both offers of MA programme at my local University (Comp Lit / English Studies) and I am on dilemma choosing which one would be more suitable for my future PhD pursue. Anyone got any idea if a non-native English speaker wants to pursue a PhD in USA, which programme would benefit more?

[Lady Rowena]

Hi, all.

 

My situation is similar to Decaf´s in some ways. I studied Studio Art in the 80s, but am self-taught as a translator with many published books and catalogs under my belt. I read a lot and have taken many workshops, but I have no true credentials in literature or translating.

 

I work translating from Spanish, although my specific interest for studying is in medieval women´s literature.

 

My question is: In order to have "adequate subject preparation," do I need to take college-level courses that would give me a grade, or can I take a certificate program in literary theory/criticism, for example, without actually receiving a grade?

 

I live in Mexico City, and I don´t believe I can take college courses for credit without actually being enrolled full-time, but there are lots of certificate programs available.

 

Thanks. I hope you´ll be kinder and more tactful with me than you were with Decaf. S/he might be a great Turkish translator in the making!

 

Lady Ro