Grad School in Canada?

[juliemac]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post.  Thought I'd give this a shot to see if I can get any input on grad school application decisions.

 

I'm American, and I'm finishing my undergrad in a social science discipline in the US.  I'm hoping to do get into a PhD-stream social science (sociology or related) grad program after I'm done.  

 

This is where I'm hoping to get some insight.  I really love Toronto as a city and I'd love living there for a number of years through grad school.  I'm wondering what the general consensus is on UofT.  I see lots written about UofT from an undergrad perspective (eg. it's impersonal, there's grade deflation, etc), but not a whole lot on the grad experience, particularly when it comes to academic quality in the social sciences.  I'm graduating from a mid-ranked ivy league, and I'm specifically wondering if a PhD from UofT would hurt my chances of working in the US (*hopefully* in an academic capacity).  Of course, I realize the academic job market is already extremely saturated, so there's no guarantee anyway - still though, would a UofT degree be a disadvantage?

 

Also, how does UofT compare with other bigger Canadian universities like UBC and McGill in the social sciences at the grad level?

 

Thanks in advance... 

 

 

[Dedi]

I am a visiting researcher at U of T, so I might have a different perspective than people who have taken classes there.

So far, I am loving it here. The people are very nice and the PI/POI is very receptive to my ideas. Keep in mind that I'm at the Scarborough campus, which is much smaller than the other campuses in Toronto. However, I've heard that U of T in general is pretty good in terms of research quality.

Do your research interests fit with a faculty member/several faculty members? If they have a page with their grad students, it might be worth e-mailing a few of them directly to get their opinion.

I don't think it matters a whole lot where you get your PhD from, but what you made of your years there. At least that's the vibe I get. I might be wrong for sociology (I'm in the psych/bio department).

[surefire]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post.  Thought I'd give this a shot to see if I can get any input on grad school application decisions.

 

I'm American, and I'm finishing my undergrad in a social science discipline in the US.  I'm hoping to do get into a PhD-stream social science (sociology or related) grad program after I'm done.  

 

This is where I'm hoping to get some insight.  I really love Toronto as a city and I'd love living there for a number of years through grad school.  I'm wondering what the general consensus is on UofT.  I see lots written about UofT from an undergrad perspective (eg. it's impersonal, there's grade deflation, etc), but not a whole lot on the grad experience, particularly when it comes to academic quality in the social sciences.  I'm graduating from a mid-ranked ivy league, and I'm specifically wondering if a PhD from UofT would hurt my chances of working in the US (*hopefully* in an academic capacity).  Of course, I realize the academic job market is already extremely saturated, so there's no guarantee anyway - still though, would a UofT degree be a disadvantage?

 

Also, how does UofT compare with other bigger Canadian universities like UBC and McGill in the social sciences at the grad level?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

Welcome to GC!

 

I can't help you too much on the "working in the States" front, because I'm not really keen to work there myself so I haven't really been attentive to pertinent details on that. I can say:

- My general understanding is that there is recognition in the States re: "the big three" Canadian graduate institutions (U of T, UBC and McGill); though, regarding Soc programs in particular, I've heard that York (a very large department) and U of A get some traction too.

- U of T Soc has a little blurb about US placement here: http://www.sociology.utoronto.ca/graduate.htm

- You could shell out some coin to get your own ASA guide to grad programs, but it's mostly just listings that you can find out on your own. Your best bet is maybe to do some reverse-engineered recon: look at the US soc departments where you might like to secure work, and then look at the faculty page to see where people hail from. This also might be a good conversation to have with your supervisor and prospective letter-writers. As well, it's a good topic to schmooze about at US conferences, if you can get to one in the next little bit.

- One of the reasons you might not hear too much on this is that, generally, Canada isn't as fervently preoccupied with rank as the US is. I'm not going to open the much-hashed GC debate on the relevance of rank, and I appreciate that you're looking for it as a point of reference, but the department that "advantages" you the most, I've been told, is the one fraught with opportunities and that supports you in your work, and that's going to have to be a more honed conversation about "fit", after you've satisfied yourself with this general convo regarding mobility. But then again, there's always QS, for reference (UofT is 21 this year):  http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2014/sociology

- There are LOTS of faculty members in the U of T soc department who got their degrees from the States. In this way, there are many faculty members who instruct and conduct research with a mind towards US trends in topics, theory, and methods (like, they just hired someone whose job talk was on the NRA, for example). As well, faculty members can connect grad students to their US networks. Just sayin', it's a US-friendly department.

 

I maybe can be of more help to you regarding the "grad experience", as I'm currently in my second-year in the soc PhD program at U of T (and am enjoying it very much). Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions on that front!

[victorydance]

A few things I will highlight.

 

For one, getting a Ph.D. from a Canadian university will almost kill your job market potential in the US. It is just the way it is. U of T does have some ability to place people in the US, but not much. Despite a good education, you can view coming out of a Canadian university Ph.D. (even the most highly ranked programs) as going to an outside top 25 institution as the US. You chances of landing a TT job are pretty low in the US.

 

You probably won't be able to go straight into a Ph.D. program from undergrad in Canada. It follows a more MA-Ph.D. model.

 

Usually, in many fields, McGill and Toronto are top dogs in Canada. Usually they rank 1 or 2 in most disciplines, this includes social sciences like sociology and political science. UBC is smaller and usually a mixed bag. Toronto is a large university, McGill is mid-sized (relative to Toronto) but usually ranks well. 

 

Something I might suggest: You might want to look at doing a MA at U of T in sociology and parlaying that into acceptance into a top ranked American Ph.D. program. This would give you the opportunity to study in Toronto like you want, but also gain skills that can make you a really competitive applicant for Ph.D. admissions.

[surefire]

Something I might suggest: You might want to look at doing a MA at U of T in sociology and parlaying that into acceptance into a top ranked American Ph.D. program. This would give you the opportunity to study in Toronto like you want, but also gain skills that can make you a really competitive applicant for Ph.D. admissions.

 

That definitely might be a good idea if OP's heart is totally set on returning to the US. The U of T Soc MA is rigorous and funded and competitive. Most MA students do go on to the PhD, but I knew two MA students last year who took acceptances to great US schools (Yale and Berkeley, if I recall) for the PhD.

[TakeruK]

A few things I will highlight.

 

You probably won't be able to go straight into a Ph.D. program from undergrad in Canada. It follows a more MA-Ph.D. model.

 

Usually, in many fields, McGill and Toronto are top dogs in Canada. Usually they rank 1 or 2 in most disciplines, this includes social sciences like sociology and political science. UBC is smaller and usually a mixed bag. Toronto is a large university, McGill is mid-sized (relative to Toronto) but usually ranks well. 

 

 

I just feel an urge to defend my alma mater for some random reason UBC and Toronto are the two biggest schools, not Toronto and McGill. McGill has about 40,000 students total, UBC has 50,000 and Toronto has almost 80,000 ish. I think these numbers include all their campuses but I think the ordering is still the same if you only count the main campus of UBC and Toronto.

 

I don't know how these schools rank in the social sciences, just wanted to make that statement about the numbers. Again, sorry for not really contributing that much useful info but I just felt compelled to point it out

[victorydance]

Oh wow, I didn't realize UBC had that many students.

[juliemac]

Thanks everyone for your input.  I think I might consider doing a master's degree at U of T, and then maybe coming back to the US for the doctorate. 

 

I am, however, curious about the statement below.  Is this true across disciplines?  I ask because I know a few faculty in my field who have been educated in Canada (granted, either at U of T or McGill).  Hopeful, have you had experience with the US academic job market as a Canadian PhD?  It seems the chances of landing a TT position are slim everywhere regardless of whether the PhD is US or Canadian, but of course, it would make sense that a HYP PhD would increase one's odds of success.

 

 

A few things I will highlight.

 

For one, getting a Ph.D. from a Canadian university will almost kill your job market potential in the US. It is just the way it is. U of T does have some ability to place people in the US, but not much. Despite a good education, you can view coming out of a Canadian university Ph.D. (even the most highly ranked programs) as going to an outside top 25 institution as the US. You chances of landing a TT job are pretty low in the US.

 

[victorydance]

I don't have any personal experience, but this is what numerous profs have told me and the general consensus of everything I have read. Generally speaking, it is very difficult to penetrate the American market without a Ph.D. from an American school. On the other hand, it is easier to penetrate other markets with a Ph.D. from an American school.

 

If you came from either McGill or Toronto, those odds increase. Basically, every university outside of those two are not likely at all to penetrate outside markets. It's not really necessarily a 'Canadian' or 'American' thing, it's just the fact that the top ranked schools in most fields are in the U.S. Ergo, these are the schools that place the best. 

 

Canadian schools, with mixed results of course, do fairly well at placing Ph.D. students at Canadian schools, but not American ones. In my field, political science, I have never seen a TT prof that has come from a Canadian university (Ph.D. granting institution of course). Obviously if I went out and looked for it I am sure I could find a couple at random small universities, but I have never seen one at a major American university. I can't imagine sociology being that much different.

Edited May 22, 2014 by HopefulComparativist

[TakeruK]

It might be more field dependent, but I don't think a PhD from a top Canadian school like McGill, Toronto, etc. will make you worse off in the US job market than a PhD from a low ranked US school. I think the main cause of seeing very few Canadian PhDs employed at top US schools is that the top US schools are far better than the top Canadian schools, as mentioned above. I definitely agree that the very best Canadian schools would be comparable to schools ranked in the top 25-50 in the US. I do agree that having a US PhD can  help you penetrate more markets than a Canadian PhD mostly because everyone knows about the US and they are a superpower while Canada is not.

[sgj2]

I normally follow conversations in this forum, but have never posted.  This thread made me want to create an account so I could post!

 

Speaking as a recent Canadian non-social science PhD grad from a US program, I don't think the US/Canada divide is as relevant as many seem to think, unless you happen to graduate from HYP (you can include Stanford and Berkeley or UK's Oxbridge in this category).  The PhD job market seems pretty saturated across many disciplines.

 

A few years ago, my sister graduated from a PhD program in history, so I happen to have some exposure to the humanities.  Although I realize history is not a social science, just thought it would be interesting to post links that compare history PhD placement records at Brown (an ivy league), versus those at U of T:

 

http://www.brown.edu/academics/history/graduate/graduate-students/placements

http://www.history.utoronto.ca/graduate/successfulplacements.html (for some reason this link only works if you click on it, get an error page, and THEN hit enter on the link again haha )

 

These records show that although Brown is a US ivy league (a lower-ranked ivy nonetheless), its placement record in the US is not significantly more stellar than U of T's.  And although you could say U of T graduates more students, and might therefore have a lower proportion of placements, my sister tells me the history department graduates an average of 6 PhD's a year - not a huge number.  The number of Canadian university placements is also obviously greater at U of T, but that makes sense given that most grad students at this university are Canadian and may not look for work in the American job market.

 

I think unless you attend one of the big names (remember, universities like University College London and U of T are 'top 25,' but not big names in the same way HYP are), you are probably as competitive going to U of T (and perhaps McGill) as you are going to most US institutions.  This is not to say, of course, that the job search will be easy; it will likely be extremely competitive no matter what.  Maybe I'm saying what other posters have already said - just thought I'd put this out there since there is a tendency to undervalue Canadian education, even when it's world class by most standards.

Edited May 26, 2014 by sgj2

[victorydance]

It might be more field dependent, but I don't think a PhD from a top Canadian school like McGill, Toronto, etc. will make you worse off in the US job market than a PhD from a low ranked US school. I think the main cause of seeing very few Canadian PhDs employed at top US schools is that the top US schools are far better than the top Canadian schools, as mentioned above. I definitely agree that the very best Canadian schools would be comparable to schools ranked in the top 25-50 in the US. I do agree that having a US PhD can  help you penetrate more markets than a Canadian PhD mostly because everyone knows about the US and they are a superpower while Canada is not.

 

I agree mostly with this. And I would say, in some fields, McGill and U of T would rank somewhere in the top 25-50. But there lies the problem. I think everyone's goal, if they want to get a tenure-track position, is to attend a top 10 institution. Canadian universities just don't hit that mark, and that's why it's hard to penetrate the US market from a Canadian university. I also think, although not really fair, that there is an additional 'stigma' attached to the US market where you should be trained there if you want a job.

 

I normally follow conversations in this forum, but have never posted.  This thread made me want to create an account so I could post!

 

Speaking as a recent Canadian non-social science PhD grad from a US program, I don't think the US/Canada divide is as relevant as many seem to think, unless you happen to graduate from HYP (you can include Stanford and Berkeley or UK's Oxbridge in this category).  The PhD job market seems pretty saturated across many disciplines.

 

A few years ago, my sister graduated from a PhD program in history, so I happen to have some exposure to the humanities.  Although I realize history is not a social science, just thought it would be interesting to post links that compare history PhD placement records at Brown (an ivy league), versus those at U of T:

 

http://www.brown.edu/academics/history/graduate/graduate-students/placements

http://www.history.utoronto.ca/graduate/successfulplacements.html (for some reason this link only works if you click on it, get an error page, and THEN hit enter on the link again haha )

 

These records show that although Brown is a US ivy league (a lower-ranked ivy nonetheless), its placement record in the US is not significantly more stellar than U of T's.  And although you could say U of T graduates more students, and might therefore have a lower proportion of placements, my sister tells me the history department graduates an average of 6 PhD's a year - not a huge number.  The number of Canadian university placements is also obviously greater at U of T, but that makes sense given that most grad students at this university are Canadian and may not look for work in the American job market.

 

I think unless you attend one of the big names (remember, universities like University College of London and U of T are 'top 25,' but not big names in the same way HYP are), you are probably as competitive going to U of T (and perhaps McGill) as you are going to most US institutions.  This is not to say, of course, that the job search will be easy; it will likely be extremely competitive no matter what.  Maybe I'm saying what other posters have already said - just thought I'd put this out there since there is a tendency to undervalue Canadian education, even when it's world class by most standards.

 

The problem with this analysis is that 'ivy league' means absolute zilch for Ph.D. programs. In history, Brown ranks barely in the top 20 (18th in US rankings). So you are comparing a decent, albeit not that strong of a university with arguably Canada's top university. When you control for size of departments, the placement records of the the two universities still favour Brown. So right off the bat, you have Canada's top university placing at a lower level than a 20th ranked university. 

 

Here is the kicker though: even despite Brown being a much smaller program, it still places more graduates in the US market than Toronto. Now, maybe there is some kind of bias attributed to the fact that more Canadian students are at U of T and hence more likely to search in the Canadian market, but regardless, there is some kind of factor there that American schools, despite having similar placement records are placing in American universities better than Canadian ones.

 

Lastly, if you look at the placement records closely, Brown is placing students at top institutions, Toronto is not. The best placement Toronto had was UT, Austin, which is the same ranking as Brown. However, Brown placed students in Yale, Chicago, Harvard, and NYU. I doubt (I don't know) Toronto has ever placed anyone in institutions like that. 

 

So what does this all mean? That Toronto might rank somewhere in the 25-50 range in history if it were in the US. 

[juliemac]

I think unless you attend one of the big names (remember, universities like University College London and U of T are 'top 25,' but not big names in the same way HYP are), you are probably as competitive going to U of T (and perhaps McGill) as you are going to most US institutions.  This is not to say, of course, that the job search will be easy; it will likely be extremely competitive no matter what.  Maybe I'm saying what other posters have already said - just thought I'd put this out there since there is a tendency to undervalue Canadian education, even when it's world class by most standards.

 

This is actually what I've been told by some of my profs, which is why I was a bit surprised at the comment about U of T killing my chances at the US job market altogether.  I don't have any interest in HYP (have had enough of the 'ivy' to last me a lifetime lol).  

 

 

I think everyone's goal, if they want to get a tenure-track position, is to attend a top 10 institution. 

 

Really?  Maybe there are just things about my institution that have bugged me over the years, but I know for a fact I'm not really crazy about the top 10.  Maybe that's just me?

 

 

 

Lastly, if you look at the placement records closely, Brown is placing students at top institutions, Toronto is not. The best placement Toronto had was UT, Austin, which is the same ranking as Brown. However, Brown placed students in Yale, Chicago, Harvard, and NYU. I doubt (I don't know) Toronto has ever placed anyone in institutions like that. 

 

Actually, it seems most of the high-profile placements they've listed on the page are post-doc or 'visiting' placements, not TT.  There are some exceptions, but for the most part, it seems they're great at placing people at state colleges.  

 

In any case, I do appreciate all this input.  Still do agree that maybe it would be best for me to do the PhD at a US school, but would consider doing my master's at U of T.  If I were Canadian though, and interested in the Canadian job market, it would be a no brainer for me.

Edited May 26, 2014 by juliemac

[reinhard]

Well if you are going into Computer Science or Math or certain engineeering fields, Waterloo is king.

[victorydance]

I don't want to make it sound like it will kill your chances altogether. Just wanted to point out that getting a TT job in the US is a uphill battle as it is, coming from a Canadian university makes it even steeper.

 

What exactly do you not like about the top 10s? Looking at sociology, there is quite a bit of diversity of types of schools in the top 10 (although of course, this is narrowed by your research interests as a prospective student).