Discouraged I/O Applicant

[Per Verbum Ad Verbum]

Hello all!

 

Over the past year or so I have read posts on this forum which I have found to be incredibly helpful, and consequently brought me back seeking advice. I am a rising senior (psychology major business minor) at a small liberal arts university, and I am interested in pursuing a graduate degree in I/O psychology. From all of the resources I have gathered, I feel that the Ph. D. route is best for my aspirations. That being said, I am feeling a bit discouraged about acceptance to the point where applying seems daunting, and a possible waste of time/money/resources.

 

My current credentials: GPA- I know I am fine (>3.95, 4.0 in psychology). GRE- has yet to be taken; I have been studying with a book and flashcards for the past two weeks and plan on continuing to do so until I take it in July/August. Letters of Recommendation- I have verbal commitments for 3 letters, 2 from psychology faculty (dept. chair and 1 tenured professor) and 1 from the Dean of students (I have worked as an RA the past year, and was hired for senior year to work with the professional residence life staff as the head RA and be in charge of 1 area of on-campus housing). What I am lacking, however, is what I consider to be the most important area: research/publication/presentations. I am currently working on a senior research project (a capstone project, if you will) which will be done by the time I am applying. Although I am working with a professor, it is much more of a mentorship role, as this project is graded and is a graduation requirement for the psychology degree. I am also currently working on an honors research project (required, for graduation from the honors college, which I chose to turn into another psych research project) which will not be completed by the application deadlines due to the nature of the study. There is also the possibility of a third project in conjunction with one of the other psychology faculty (once again, not to be completed until after applications are due). However, as far as publication/presentation goes, I will be attempting to submit my work for both, but at this time have neither, and will not by the time applications are submitted. Due to unfortunate circumstances in the department and the nature of being at a very small school, I was unable to work with any professors and get my name on anything.

 

My questions are: based on my credentials, is it worth continuing to pursue acceptance at Ph. D. programs at this point in time? If not, what would the best course of action be to get there (e.g.  apply for a Masters? Take a year off and acquire more skills? etc…) If so, what should I do to try and better my chances at acceptance?

 

Reading other posts/resources and understanding the reality of the acceptance rates at Ph. D. programs, I have been discouraged lately. Any advice or insight is more than welcomed J Also, if there is any more information that I can provide which would be helpful let me know.

 

Thank you for your time and consideration!

[Gvh]

From where I'm sitting, it seems like you would be a competitive applicant for PhD admissions. Most people I know who got into really good programs (granted, not in I/O, but in top psych programs in the country in developmental/social/cog) didn't have publications at the time of application. I don't think not having publications is a deal breaker at all, especially since you'd be coming straight from UG. Sure, if you decided to do an RA-ship for a year or two to perfect your skills/get some pubs, that would be nothing but beneficial, but I also don't see why you wouldn't have a good shot now, as long as you have focused research interests and good letters/stats.  

Edited June 5, 2014 by Gvh

[Tolman's Rat]

Not I/O, but I was in a similar predicament two years ago when I first applied (GPA similar, 3.85 overall, 3.96 in Psychology). I really wanted to go for my PhD, so I applied. At the time, I did have research experience, but it was very menial (i.e., data processing, data collection, basically being a lab hand) and not closely related to what I wanted to do.

 

With how competitive programs are now, I think it's gotten to the point where you can't just demonstrate that you have the potential to do very well, but that you're already doing that level of work and ready to take it to the next step. One thing that can be telling is looking around at grad student CVs for the programs you want to apply to. What would they have looked like before they entered the program? What had they already accomplished? 

 

Perhaps someone in I/O can give you better advice, but generally students with a Master's degree aren't treated much differently from students with a BA (this varies across programs) because the Master's and PhD are rolled into one program anyway. I think that a lot of schools would prefer to have you for the full 5+ years. If I was debating between getting research experience for a year or applying to Master's programs, I would certainly go the research route without making a commitment to a program that might not ultimately be beneficial.

 

I might be a bit cynical because of my own experiences, but even a letter of recommendation is of less value when it's not coming from someone with whom you've conducted research. I look at the LORs that I have now versus what I was working with 2 years ago, and that alone could be the difference maker. Add on top of that the skills you can acquire, experience you can gain with the review process, people you can meet at conferences and workshops. 

 

Send some feelers out to the programs you're looking at and try to get a gauge on what they think about you. Of course, best option would be to send e-mails to faculty members you're interested in, because admissions counselors will give you the runaround  As the poster above mentioned, send your CV, but first start some discourse and ask if they'd be willing to look at your CV. Otherwise, they probably won't open it.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Tolman's Rat

[Tolman's Rat]

True. I only sent my CV after an initial "Hi i'm interested in you/this is what I've done/are you taking students" conversation.

 

Research positions are great- I did one and it was undoubtedly a huge part of my application success. I just don't know how common they are and how easily you can find a paid position. Maybe try to get a feel for what is out there and if you would even be able to secure a research position for your year off. 

The issue with a paid position is that, oftentimes, you aren't working towards a publication, at least as someone with a BA. Those where you have the opportunity to make real intellectual contributions are very rare. Sounds like you got one, and you're lucky for that. Most paid research positions with a BA, you're more likely to be doing things like data processing and collection. Sounds like OP is at a small school too where it might be difficult to find any sort of paid position, let alone one where intellectual contributions are possible.

 

I kind of hit the jackpot, working with two people who are both cited extensively by my POIs, have two papers nearly ready to be submitted, 6 conference posters. It's been unpaid, but I've also been working as an academic editor helping scholars who speak English as a second language get published in international psychology journals.

 

It's a difficult process and the biggest issue is that you can be a perfectly qualified candidate who doesn't get in just based on probability. The more you do, the less likely it is that programs can pass you up, but that's not to say that OP can't get in with the profile s/he presented, because it's very competitive vs. other undergrad applicants.

[Gvh]

True. I only sent my CV after an initial "Hi i'm interested in you/this is what I've done/are you taking students" conversation.

 

Research positions are great- I did one and it was undoubtedly a huge part of my application success. I just don't know how common they are and how easily you can find a paid position. Maybe try to get a feel for what is out there and if you would even be able to secure a research position for your year off. 

 

 

Agreed with what everyone has been saying here. I found a paid full-time RA-ship (working on a first-authorship w/ PI with a couple other middle-author papers being reviewed), but only after I did a masters. It's definitely possible to find a research job with only a BA, but it's harder. I did start volunteering for a lab while I was in school, and they then hired me after 6 months. Sometimes you need to "prove yourself" first :/ Heck, I'm realizing more and more how this whole process (along with the process leading up to grad school), is such a crapshoot! Well, along with a lot of hard work

Edited June 5, 2014 by Gvh

[BeingThere]

It sounds like the only thing you lack is presentation experience.  Publications are not the norm for undergrads in I/O.  

 

If spending a year in a paid RA position isn't going to give you presentation experience it might not increase your acceptance odds.  But if you can get presentations/publications out of it, then that sounds like a viable plan.  I don't know much about RA positions, and I really have no idea how common or easy-to-get RA positions are, so others are better able to tell you the chances of finding one and the benefits of having one.

 

If you have strong LORs, research experience (especially on independent projects, as well as working under faculty), strong GPA, and can rock the GRE, you should apply this coming cycle.  Speaking from experience in the area you want to go into, I think you have a shot. 

 

Suggestions:

 

-- Make sure your letter writers can speak to your skills as a researcher and not just to your performance in their classes (very important).  I think you can get this type of letter if you are currently working on your projects with the mentorship of profs.

-- Rock that GRE.

-- Can you arrange to present your current project at a brown bag session in your department this fall?  FIND an opportunity to present if you possibly can.  You may still have time to do this.  Can you present on any part of the research that will be complete this fall?  Any preliminary results? 

-- Write (in your personal statements) intelligently about the research experience you do have.  Independent projects show initiative and responsibility. This is an asset. (I got into a top program coming from a small liberal arts school.  Nearly all of my research experience was from independent projects.) 

 

You may also wish to add a couple master's programs to your application list.  I was fully prepared to do this - had LORs lined up, statements ready, transcripts sent - but ended up saving myself the application fees to the master's programs because I heard back from PhD programs before the master's applications were due. 

 

If presentation experience and getting more research experience are weaknesses that will keep you from getting into PhD programs, then getting into a master's program is the perfect stepping stone to get what you may be lacking.  Funds are hard to come by for master's programs but there are partially funded programs out there and ways to minimize cost for motivated students.

 

Best of luck to you.  I had a lot of doubts last year when I applied, and I got into my dream program (and my application was not perfect.)  You can do this!

Edited June 5, 2014 by Bren2014

[Engali]

Hello all!

 

Over the past year or so I have read posts on this forum which I have found to be incredibly helpful, and consequently brought me back seeking advice. I am a rising senior (psychology major business minor) at a small liberal arts university, and I am interested in pursuing a graduate degree in I/O psychology. From all of the resources I have gathered, I feel that the Ph. D. route is best for my aspirations. That being said, I am feeling a bit discouraged about acceptance to the point where applying seems daunting, and a possible waste of time/money/resources.

 

My current credentials: GPA- I know I am fine (>3.95, 4.0 in psychology). GRE- has yet to be taken; I have been studying with a book and flashcards for the past two weeks and plan on continuing to do so until I take it in July/August. Letters of Recommendation- I have verbal commitments for 3 letters, 2 from psychology faculty (dept. chair and 1 tenured professor) and 1 from the Dean of students (I have worked as an RA the past year, and was hired for senior year to work with the professional residence life staff as the head RA and be in charge of 1 area of on-campus housing). What I am lacking, however, is what I consider to be the most important area: research/publication/presentations. I am currently working on a senior research project (a capstone project, if you will) which will be done by the time I am applying. Although I am working with a professor, it is much more of a mentorship role, as this project is graded and is a graduation requirement for the psychology degree. I am also currently working on an honors research project (required, for graduation from the honors college, which I chose to turn into another psych research project) which will not be completed by the application deadlines due to the nature of the study. There is also the possibility of a third project in conjunction with one of the other psychology faculty (once again, not to be completed until after applications are due). However, as far as publication/presentation goes, I will be attempting to submit my work for both, but at this time have neither, and will not by the time applications are submitted. Due to unfortunate circumstances in the department and the nature of being at a very small school, I was unable to work with any professors and get my name on anything.

 

My questions are: based on my credentials, is it worth continuing to pursue acceptance at Ph. D. programs at this point in time? If not, what would the best course of action be to get there (e.g.  apply for a Masters? Take a year off and acquire more skills? etc…) If so, what should I do to try and better my chances at acceptance?

 

Reading other posts/resources and understanding the reality of the acceptance rates at Ph. D. programs, I have been discouraged lately. Any advice or insight is more than welcomed J Also, if there is any more information that I can provide which would be helpful let me know.

 

Thank you for your time and consideration!

 

 

Don't be discouraged.  It's competitive, but certainly not impossible.  I have a similar background to you, but didn't do nearly as well in undergrad.  Consequently, I had to "prove myself" by doing a master's.  By the greatest of good fortune, I now find myself in a really good I/O PhD program with an advisor that is as much a role model as he is a mentor. 

 

Obviously, get as much research experience as you can.  Aside from that, I recommend that you buy a used copy of one of the major I/O textbooks (by Muchinsky or Spector) for cheap, read through it, and figure out what in I/O genuinely interests you.  Then figure out who is doing research in those areas and use that to guide which programs you apply to.  You will be more competitive becasue researchers want to work with those who are passionate about their research topics.  If you can show an understanding of the state of the field/research area and articulate what you would want to explore and why that is important in your SOP, you will have a leg up.  This may not be the advice you were looking for, but I think it is the best advice anyone can give you right now given the circumstances.  Know what you want to research, target your program selection based off of this, and apply.  Forget most of the ranking systems out there.  Many are outdated; some programs' reputations have been built on the backs of researchers who are long gone.  Work wtih someone who is doing work on something you love. If yoiu don't, you may find yourself researching something you hate and working with someone you can't stand.  In other words, you will be in for a bad time.  The top key factors in thriving in a PhD program are loving what you're researching and being compatible with your professor/advisor in terms of personality and research interests.  It is vital that you keep this in mind as you move through the application cycle and start interviewing, which is actually becoming more and more common despite what the siop.org program page would lead you to believe.

 

Alright, I'm done ranting.  Dig deep and good luck.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Engali

[kaswing]

This is all great advice-- I am so happy to see someone ask a question like this and have so many people step in to help! I wish I had expertise to offer. All I can say is "awesome GPA!" Good for you My (random) opinion is that if your recommenders can say compelling things about your ability to work in research and the quality of your work, you're going to be in a good place. If you have a chance to attach your paper draft(s) to your application in addition, they will be able to see the quality of your work (and they have a good sense of how it compares to other applicants) and that will matter a lot more than the timing of publication and all that.

I have a question for the rest of the folks in this thread. When you all say "rock the GRE," what are you aiming for? I have research experience (1 yr + in more than one lab), but no publications; a mediocre UG GPA (3.4?); a masters in a sort-of-related field (MBA-- not academic. 3.6?); some relevant work experience; and solid GRE scores (170V 161Q).

Do you think I am overreaching to hope that the GRE scores will help offset my weaknesses? I think the GRE is a bit of an unfair, arbitrary, and irrelevant measure, but since it's the strength on my application, I'm selfishly hoping the adcom doesn't see it that way! I am working toward publishable material, but I think it's a stretch to think it will be done by October.

[Per Verbum Ad Verbum]

Thank you all for such sound advice! I truly appreciate the thoughtful responses and personal experiences you all have shared. I have decided to give it my best shot this upcoming fall and see what happens. I plan on applying to about 12 programs, including some masters programs. Best of luck to everyone applying this fall and to those who have already been accepted.

[BeingThere]

This is all great advice-- I am so happy to see someone ask a question like this and have so many people step in to help! I wish I had expertise to offer. All I can say is "awesome GPA!" Good for you My (random) opinion is that if your recommenders can say compelling things about your ability to work in research and the quality of your work, you're going to be in a good place. If you have a chance to attach your paper draft(s) to your application in addition, they will be able to see the quality of your work (and they have a good sense of how it compares to other applicants) and that will matter a lot more than the timing of publication and all that.

I have a question for the rest of the folks in this thread. When you all say "rock the GRE," what are you aiming for? I have research experience (1 yr + in more than one lab), but no publications; a mediocre UG GPA (3.4?); a masters in a sort-of-related field (MBA-- not academic. 3.6?); some relevant work experience; and solid GRE scores (170V 161Q).

Do you think I am overreaching to hope that the GRE scores will help offset my weaknesses? I think the GRE is a bit of an unfair, arbitrary, and irrelevant measure, but since it's the strength on my application, I'm selfishly hoping the adcom doesn't see it that way! I am working toward publishable material, but I think it's a stretch to think it will be done by October.

You have "rocked" the GRE.  No worries there. 

 

The GRE is probably an unfair, arbitrary, and irrelevant measure of your worth as a human being.  However, research shows that GRE scores do predict many outcomes for grad students such as first year GPA, comp exam performance, degree completion, research productivity, etc. (Kuncel & Hezlett, 2007.)

Edited July 11, 2014 by Bren2014

[kaswing]

Bren 2014-- thanks! That's reassuring.