Frustration with the graduate system

[Francophile1]

I would like to express my opinion and concern about the graduate system and see if anybody has any input

I have posted previously here regarding grades and other issues but lately the more I think about everything the more agitated I become with the system itself. 

So hear me out!
I have found that in the last year alone our department has not provided us with any particular feedback or help regarding writing research papers or big assignments and it seems it takes a swim or sink approach. Perhaps it is way easier for people with MA degrees to adjust but those students who come straight from BA are expected to also know how to conduct research from the get go and no first year help is provided.

I am not sure if this is the way all PhD's work in the US but I find it quiet frustrating!

I am not referring here to actually someone holding your hand and writing a big writing assignment for you but at least offering some kind of support in regards to this matter.

This is especially crucial when the only assignment we are graded on is a final paper.

Maybe there is someone out there who can contribute to my frustration or add their stories how they have gotten better in academic writing.

I really want to avoid learning from my mistakes after the fact. SO what's the approach? Perhaps submitting a rough draft before final (even if it isn't required)?

When one does not do research papers as an undergraduate (more just shorter papers), and there is no particular training or help available (as part of a PhD program) what can be done?

If any first year PhD students were in a similar position please share!

[Eigen]

So you seem to be both asking about general trends in PhD programs, but also about advice for where to go from where you are. 

 

For where you are, my suggestion would be to check with (a) an advisor, ( your campus writing center, and © your classmates. 

 

It sounds like from what you're saying your BA program didn't really prepare you well for graduate school. That's an issue you'll just have to work around- there are lots of good books and other sources for learning how to write research papers. 

 

Grad school can be very sink or swim, it's very much not undergraduate. People won't hold your hand, they won't explain everything that needs to be done or how to do it- you're generally just graded on what you can produce. It can be very frustrating if you aren't used to it. 

[Francophile1]

Thanks Eigen!

Yes I am trying to resort to advisors and writing centers (for next fall), but unfortunately my advisor was not very helpful in the past.

 

I am not sure how other programs teach undegraduates in foreign language (my degree was in foreign language), but we pretty much did not have to write research papers as detailed as I have to do now, so I have come across even form problems as far as the construction goes.

 

I am also wondering whether MA degrees are different? MA without the PhD attached to it, are they more guided usually?

[St Andrews Lynx]

Your university may have some sort of writing center that can help you out. I think that our school there are courses to teach you scientific writing, but they are organised and operated outside of the science departments (i.e., in Professional Development). They are certainly available for PhD students, I suspect Masters students will be able to take them as well. I also know that there are courses/lunchtime workshops available at my school on everything from TAing to how to manage your advisor! 

 

I think that with a bit of digging you can find guidance. Or failing that, ask more senior grad students to give your essays a once-over before you submit them.  

[Francophile1]

That is great that you have that! We don't seem to have anything of this nature:(

[Bear247]

My department has a few seminars for new students every year, one of them focusing on how to write papers.  1st year PhD students are required to attend, all graduate students are welcomed and encouraged.  

 

Other than that, we don't get much formal training in terms of how to write a paper.  That comes from your adviser and your lab group.  My lab tends to have a nice balance as far as each newer student working with/under a more senior student. 

 

I would say talk to your adviser and senior students in your group.  Get an idea for their method and procedure of writing a paper.  If you are submitting something to your adviser, certainly have another grad student, post doc even, have a look at it first.  If your university has a writing center/program, see if they have someone who specializes in technical or academic writing.  Schedule an appointment with them and have them go over your paper. 

 

Also, the more literature you read in your field, the better a sense you get for what goes into a paper, how it is written, and how it should be structured.  

 

I understand the sink or swim frustration.  In some cases, it is very unhealthy and not the way things should be done at the grad school level.  'How to write a paper' is certainly in that category.  Regardless, with each paper you write and publish, you get a lot better at it and writing it becomes a lot more natural to you.

[geographyrocks]

Things to check out:

Writing center (as others have mentioned)-most schools have one

Graduate studies: they can point you in the right direction and generally offer seminars on things like writing

Graduate student association: similar but different than graduate studies

Classes: most universities offer classes on scientific writing or academic writing

Other advisors: if your adviser doesn't have anything to offer, ask other professors (especially those that publish a lot)

Not all graduate programs are created equal. At my university, we have all of the things I've listed available to us as well as writing classes within my department. When you had orientation, did they not mention any graduate resources?

If all else fails, there are a lot of helpful websites out there as well.

[Francophile1]

Yes, we basically don't have any senior students or faculty or any workshops even. I had to find out that I need to improve through essays and classes-that's it.

In fact my advisor criticized my paper in many ways yet offered no other resources other than..why I didn't come to her sooner.

I guess writing workshops would be my best option here.

[Eigen]

Wait, you have no senior graduate students?

 

You're the oldest person in the program? Is this a new program or something?

[Francophile1]

no I mean we do not have a support program where senior students support junior students or anything like that. I barely even see them since they are mostly writing dissertations.

[biotechie]

no I mean we do not have a support program where senior students support junior students or anything like that. I barely even see them since they are mostly writing dissertations.

 

I did a MS and am now working on a PhD. We don't have an established "support program" for the older students to help the younger ones. We ask them for help, and they are happy to help mentor us. My program is different than yours, but I feel like it would be rare for a junior student to be unable to find a senior student to help guide them.

[fuzzylogician]

no I mean we do not have a support program where senior students support junior students or anything like that. I barely even see them since they are mostly writing dissertations.

 

I can't imagine turning a junior student away if they approached me for advice on something I could help with, or trying to figure out who might be able to help, in case I couldn't. But they do have to take the initiative, I can't guess what issues they might be having and it would be pretentious approach them and offer help myself, if they don't show signs of wanting/needing it.

[Francophile1]

Yes I understand of course that the student would have to seek out the help, however I was just pointing out that we do not have a senior-junior student help set-up or anything like that and most students the juniors interact with are junior students

[Eigen]

I've never seen a department organized to have a student or faculty mentoring plan setup outside of the advisor committee. 

 

If you need help, it's up to you to approach senior students and ask. Or, you can go to your peers. This is the level where you need to start learning how to work with your peers for help, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. 

[TakeruK]

I've seen a few departments have a formal peer mentoring system set up. In my option, it was informal in the sense that just before prospective students visit, one person introduced themselves to each prospective and that person remained in contact afterwards. However, we're also small (two dozen ish grad students) so there really isn't much division between the "ages". We all hang out together and most of us have lunch together.

 

Because of this, it's pretty common for senior students to ask us how we're doing and offer tips as necessary. It also makes it very easy and natural for us to ask for help/advice on tricky situations! Even second year students can be helpful to first year students because quals happens at the end of first year for us!

 

But even if you don't normally interact with senior students, I definitely agree that the onus is on the junior students to seek help and reach out when they need to! Sure, I'd say that it's a good idea for senior students to keep an eye out for students that might need help, but as fuzzy pointed out, it's a bit pretentious for senior students to just offer to help when help might not be needed at all! So, definitely seek out help from senior students if you are feeling lost. I think I get just as good advice from talking with the older students because no matter how good a relationship I have with my supervisors, I want to just bounce some ideas and/or not be afraid to say really dumb/naive things with my peers!

[fuzzylogician]

But even if you don't normally interact with senior students, I definitely agree that the onus is on the junior students to seek help and reach out when they need to! Sure, I'd say that it's a good idea for senior students to keep an eye out for students that might need help, but as fuzzy pointed out, it's a bit pretentious for senior students to just offer to help when help might not be needed at all! So, definitely seek out help from senior students if you are feeling lost. I think I get just as good advice from talking with the older students because no matter how good a relationship I have with my supervisors, I want to just bounce some ideas and/or not be afraid to say really dumb/naive things with my peers!

 

This. Having a wide network of people around your own rank--both above and below--is extremely useful for bouncing ideas around and getting advice. In the long run, these fellow students will become peers, if you stay in academia. They will always be slightly ahead of you, e.g. taking quals, writing a dissertation prospectus and the dissertation itself, on the job market, on the tenure track. Having friends out there who were in your shoes just 2-3 years ago and can provide advice on their recent experiences is priceless. They understand where you are now better than your established faculty mentors. I think the relationships I have with these peers are as important as my relationships with superstars in my field. I am not afraid to ask these people for help and advice, and they always provide it to the best of their ability. It's amazing how generous people can be, if you only ask. I do try to reach out to younger students myself, simply asking once in a while how they are doing and some general questions that may reveal if they are experiencing any difficulties, but I have to admit it's much easier when they come to me with particular questions than trying to reach out to them when I'm not sure if they are interested in that.  

[shadowclaw]

I can't comment on any experiences in a PhD program since I am in an MS program (with no PhD program at the school). However, I do understand some of your frustrations. My school didn't have any kind of orientation for new grad students, but I did get a welcome e-mail from the graduate program coordinator who listed the e-mail addresses of other students in the program, which was helpful in that I had a contact list. However, I had no idea how anything worked and I was pretty clueless my first semester. Eventually, through visiting the graduate coordinator and meeting with my advisor on a regular basis, I learned what was expected of me. I did have to outright ask about a few things, like time tables, what paperwork needs to be filled out, etc, because my advisor didn't volunteer the information (he forgets to do things a lot). I also found that the older students were happy to answer any questions I had, and they were excited to find about my research. However, as others have mentioned, it is very unlikely any of your senior students are going to just walk up to you and offer advice. You need to ask.

 

So some suggestions I have (which echoes the advice of others):

Visit your university's writing center

Take a writing class

Buy a good handbook on writing research papers

Find a writing workshop or webinar

E-mail or approach some of your peers (both senior students and juniors like yourself) and ask if they can look over some of your work

Visit your advisor on a regular basis and ask questions

[Francophile1]

thanks everyone. My primary concern is with reviewing papers before submitting them and I have to agree with some comments above about that my department also does not really talk about any resources. In the first year we had a meeting and throughout the year we saw our advisor maybe 2x/year. I have also noticed that many graduate students in our program don't ask for help from other students since they assume that we all are very busy. SO there isn't really any kind of relationship as far as academically helping each other goes. I was able to talk to some students and get general advice on classes etc...but that's it.

I also do not have a very encouraging advisor because instead of maybe giving me some ideas or even just talking to me about options how to improve I was discouraged and criticized.

I am seeking outside help now academically so hopefully that will help.