Trouble deciding between Law and Grad School

[Pavelboca]

Hey all,

I'm about to start my Senior year this fall Semester at the university of central florida. I will be graduating in spring. I've been decided on Law School for a couple months, and have been studying for the LSAT for the last two. But I've recently been getting cold feet. The main reason I've considered attending law school is a combination of an understanding that the application process is quite generous for high GPA students, as well as the fact that I could see myself being successful within the field.

But I've always had somewhat of a talent with writing, particularly academic papers. I could see myself really enjoying getting my phd and being a professor or whatnot. So basically, a few questions:

1) what do grad school admissions base their decisions on? I have a high GPA (3.97) but am not from a prestigious college. I also don't have any published papers- just a few articles in my student run newspaper. I do have high quality writing samples, and I would like to get a paper published this semester.

2) my girlfriend goes to UPenn for law, and a Pennsylvania or New York university is preferable for me. Is it realistic to gun for schools like Nyu, Penn, and Columbia? My area of interest is cultural studies.

[surefire]

Hi Pavelboca,

 

Welcome to the GC! I'm not going to be of any help on a coherent diagnosis of NYU/Penn/Columbia, because my context is Canadian. But I'm drawn to your question because the "law school or grad school" debate was a pickle I found myself mired in a few years ago. To give the story away up front: I'm currently in a PhD program. In trying to decide between law school or grad school, I opted to get an 1 year MA in socio-legal studies to test the water (in Canada, you typically get an MA before the PhD w/o much of the US-style "terminal MA" baggage). During the MA, I wrote the LSAT (which I abhorred on a special level - writing the LSAT was a good exercise for me in figuring out if I really wanted to go the law school route). The unique MA allowed me to be in conversation with both JDs and PhDs, and through these discussions, I quickly realized that the law school route wasn't for me.

 

I'm going to recommend that you look outward, reflect inward, and cultivate a conversation regarding "fit".

 

First, I'm going to say this:

- Any (responsible) poster on GC, in looking at your "what do grad schools base their decisions on" question, can only answer one way: it depends (though of course, people might have specific ideas about the specific schools you've named). For a summary of the criteria, you need only look to the sub-forum contents of the GC, which cover things like the GRE and statements of purpose (and looking within the threads will give you a sense of how they're "weighted" and what people think about what one needs to do to meet the criteria). For a "quick and dirty" idea, you can look at schools of interest on the "Results Search", where people often divulge their stats and accept/reject status for grad school recommendations.

- Going to law school because you want to be rewarded for a high GPA isn't a good idea.

- Going to grad school because you want to be rewarded for a penchant for writing is not a good idea.

- Working under the assumption that anyone is going to be persuaded that you belong in a program because you can "see yourself" at the destination is not a good idea.

 

I hope that's not harsh. It's not intended to be. These are things that I would have benefited from hearing.

 

I think you should:

- Do a bit of GC recon to get a sense of stats and criteria.

- Talk to current law students and lawyers: what does their day to day reality consist of? Can you "see yourself" being good at those tasks and thriving in that reality, not just "enjoying" the professional identity?

- Talk to current grad students and professors: same questions as above.

- Try crafting two different personal statements: one for law school and one for grad school. This will help you articulate "fit" (which consists of sussing out the resources that you will bring to the program and the resources you will draw upon in the program to FINISH the damn program AND what, as a thriving scholar, you ultimately will be able to contribute with the opportunity). I'd be interested to see which one of these feels like more "work" to you: give each a fair shake by doing some research first on the different pursuits, and then write the two statements - which one makes you feel at a loss or feels "forced" or false, if any? That's a good gut reaction to listen to.

- Seriously consider not doing either. Seriously. Just entertain the notion for a sec and see what that feels like. I worked for almost two years between the MA and PhD before I'd made up my mind on the latter. I realized that neither law nor grad school are good places for people who just weren't sure what else to do with themselves, and if I couldn't articulate whether I wanted one or the other, I wasn't going to convince any programs worth attending that they should want me. Having had the work experience, I feel much better-equipped during the rough, solitary parts of the PhD.

 

None of this is meant to be condescending or mean and I hope you don't see this response as a blatant disregard of your questions. You don't need to jump right to "which schools might take me?", some recon and reflection at this stage will help you articulate the best route, generally, and the best prospects, more specifically.

 

HTH! Good luck.

[Dr. Old Bill]

Welcome, Pavelboca!

 

Surefire has a bunch of excellent advice for you there, and it is pretty comprehensive. As a result, here are just a few random thoughts of my own in addition...

 

-In about fifteen minutes of reading through old threads on this forum, you'll see a few common themes emerge. One of those is that these are tough times for would-be English Ph.D. graduates. Tenure track jobs are disappearing, and general academia slots are hard to come by. Even teaching at a community college is far from a sure bet (as having a Ph.D. is currently becoming a standard requirement of the position...and in six years, it will probably be that much more integral). Oh, and the wages aren't great compared to other industries. You could probably make a hell of a lot more right out of law school than you could as a tenure track professor. Research jobs are also hard to come by, and while an English degree lends itself to a wider range of career possibilities than some other degrees, it is still a fairly limited and specific field. This is not doom and gloom so much as the stark reality. However, if you can read all of that, consider it, read it again, consider it some more, and still think "Hey, I can deal with all that," then you may be able to realistically consider graduate-level English (from a purely practical standpoint, that is).

 

-Having a 3.9x GPA is definitely helpful. However, from what I understand, the major GPA is even more vital to the process. Have you taken several undergraduate English courses? Can you still take some in your Senior year? Not having any undergraduate English courses under your belt (particularly at least a couple of survey courses) might be a big red flag to admissions committees (adcomms). While it's great that you have a talent for writing academic papers, adcomms are going to look for academic papers on a topic that interests you...but is also firmly rooted in the English spectrum. And generally speaking, such a paper should dovetail with your statement of purpose (SOP) so that the two work together to paint a picture of who you will be as a future English scholar. It could be a pointed analysis of Marlowe's use of language, a cross-cultural take on World War I poetry, a perspective on gender repression in 18th century French literature...but it has to be related to the field of English, somehow, and should point to potential future study.

 

-While having papers published can be a benefit, it's certainly not an expectation among adcomms. So if you are truly considering going down this path, you can breathe a sigh of relief about that, at least.

 

-This is 100% my opinion, and others might disagree (even vehemently), but if you don't have a burning desire to enter the field (as opposed to thinking "hey, that might be nice" or "I think I could do that..."), graduate study in English can be prohibitive. On the surface, it might sound like you get to do a lot of reading and writing -- and you do -- but it's an incredibly insular field that requires a lot of research on things that very few people, other than a few fellow academics, are going to care about. For instance, I'm hoping to spend the bulk of my five years focusing on the evolution of both form and trope in sonnets. And that's probably way too broad. (I have firm ideas about more specifics, but they're not worth mentioning here). Five pages of my writing sample discuss possible meanings of two sets of blank parentheses. In other words, you've probably got to be really interested in English, and furthermore have a pointed interest in something about English to make an application worthwhile.

 

-Finally, with regard to your New York / Pennsylvania thoughts...well, all three schools you mentioned are "top tier." Naturally that means that they accept fewer than ten percent of the applicants. Even if you discount applicants who either screw up on their applications or are otherwise unqualified, you're still looking at long odds to make it in. I used to consider myself a very strong candidate until I joined Grad Cafe and saw what other members have done in comparison. I still think I'm a good candidate for several schools -- good enough to not deter me from applying -- but there's a reason why I'm applying to at least twelve institutions this fall. The percentages just don't work in anyone's favor...and "fit" is a very real phenomenon.

 

So should you consider pursuing doctoral study in English? Yes, you should consider it -- you should really consider it. Think long and hard. There are more cons than pros, but depending on your focus, the pros may still outweigh the cons. Either way, good luck...and welcome again to Grad Cafe!

[sacklunch]

You will soon encounter (ad nauseam) the popular response: It's all about fit. This means that your interests have to be closely matched to whatever program you are interested in, not just applying to good schools that make the popular rankings. This means that a 'no name' school to someone may be a 'top school' in your subfield. You can only know what school fits where after hours and hours of research and reflection on your own work. Even at the 'low ranked' schools you are still looking at fairly low chances of admission (less than 20%), while as the poster above said the (traditionally) 'top schools' are even more rigorous (around 5% I suspect). Those admitted will have 'good stats', but what you will find is those with the 'best stats' on paper are not always the ones admitted. Again, it's about fit. As the great advice above suggests, scout around on the forum and read a shit ton to get your bearings.

[Pavelboca]

Hi Pavelboca,

 

Welcome to the GC! I'm not going to be of any help on a coherent diagnosis of NYU/Penn/Columbia, because my context is Canadian. But I'm drawn to your question because the "law school or grad school" debate was a pickle I found myself mired in a few years ago. To give the story away up front: I'm currently in a PhD program. In trying to decide between law school or grad school, I opted to get an 1 year MA in socio-legal studies to test the water (in Canada, you typically get an MA before the PhD w/o much of the US-style "terminal MA" baggage). During the MA, I wrote the LSAT (which I abhorred on a special level - writing the LSAT was a good exercise for me in figuring out if I really wanted to go the law school route). The unique MA allowed me to be in conversation with both JDs and PhDs, and through these discussions, I quickly realized that the law school route wasn't for me.

 

I'm going to recommend that you look outward, reflect inward, and cultivate a conversation regarding "fit".

 

First, I'm going to say this:

- Any (responsible) poster on GC, in looking at your "what do grad schools base their decisions on" question, can only answer one way: it depends (though of course, people might have specific ideas about the specific schools you've named). For a summary of the criteria, you need only look to the sub-forum contents of the GC, which cover things like the GRE and statements of purpose (and looking within the threads will give you a sense of how they're "weighted" and what people think about what one needs to do to meet the criteria). For a "quick and dirty" idea, you can look at schools of interest on the "Results Search", where people often divulge their stats and accept/reject status for grad school recommendations.

- Going to law school because you want to be rewarded for a high GPA isn't a good idea.

- Going to grad school because you want to be rewarded for a penchant for writing is not a good idea.

- Working under the assumption that anyone is going to be persuaded that you belong in a program because you can "see yourself" at the destination is not a good idea.

 

I hope that's not harsh. It's not intended to be. These are things that I would have benefited from hearing.

 

I think you should:

- Do a bit of GC recon to get a sense of stats and criteria.

- Talk to current law students and lawyers: what does their day to day reality consist of? Can you "see yourself" being good at those tasks and thriving in that reality, not just "enjoying" the professional identity?

- Talk to current grad students and professors: same questions as above.

- Try crafting two different personal statements: one for law school and one for grad school. This will help you articulate "fit" (which consists of sussing out the resources that you will bring to the program and the resources you will draw upon in the program to FINISH the damn program AND what, as a thriving scholar, you ultimately will be able to contribute with the opportunity). I'd be interested to see which one of these feels like more "work" to you: give each a fair shake by doing some research first on the different pursuits, and then write the two statements - which one makes you feel at a loss or feels "forced" or false, if any? That's a good gut reaction to listen to.

- Seriously consider not doing either. Seriously. Just entertain the notion for a sec and see what that feels like. I worked for almost two years between the MA and PhD before I'd made up my mind on the latter. I realized that neither law nor grad school are good places for people who just weren't sure what else to do with themselves, and if I couldn't articulate whether I wanted one or the other, I wasn't going to convince any programs worth attending that they should want me. Having had the work experience, I feel much better-equipped during the rough, solitary parts of the PhD.

 

None of this is meant to be condescending or mean and I hope you don't see this response as a blatant disregard of your questions. You don't need to jump right to "which schools might take me?", some recon and reflection at this stage will help you articulate the best route, generally, and the best prospects, more specifically.

 

HTH! Good luck.

 

Thanks so much for the response. It was not harsh at all, I agree with everything you laid out. There is certainly a lot for me to figure out on an internal level. I don't think I would go to Grad school because I could necessarily envision myself there- it just  seems more aligned with what I would like to do as a career. I enjoy reading, writing, and film more than anything. I'm leaning towards Law School because of my skill set and the fields job security (assuming I'm at a T-14 with minimal debt).

Regardless of what happens I'm taking the LSAT in September and gauging how that turns out. Maybe the best option is to get my scores, graduate, and get a job until next cycle- and then decide if Law School or Grad school seems like a viable option. Maybe something will click for me. 

 

 

Welcome, Pavelboca!

 

Surefire has a bunch of excellent advice for you there, and it is pretty comprehensive. As a result, here are just a few random thoughts of my own in addition...

 

-In about fifteen minutes of reading through old threads on this forum, you'll see a few common themes emerge. One of those is that these are tough times for would-be English Ph.D. graduates. Tenure track jobs are disappearing, and general academia slots are hard to come by. Even teaching at a community college is far from a sure bet (as having a Ph.D. is currently becoming a standard requirement of the position...and in six years, it will probably be that much more integral). Oh, and the wages aren't great compared to other industries. You could probably make a hell of a lot more right out of law school than you could as a tenure track professor. Research jobs are also hard to come by, and while an English degree lends itself to a wider range of career possibilities than some other degrees, it is still a fairly limited and specific field. This is not doom and gloom so much as the stark reality. However, if you can read all of that, consider it, read it again, consider it some more, and still think "Hey, I can deal with all that," then you may be able to realistically consider graduate-level English (from a purely practical standpoint, that is).

 

-Having a 3.9x GPA is definitely helpful. However, from what I understand, the major GPA is even more vital to the process. Have you taken several undergraduate English courses? Can you still take some in your Senior year? Not having any undergraduate English courses under your belt (particularly at least a couple of survey courses) might be a big red flag to admissions committees (adcomms). While it's great that you have a talent for writing academic papers, adcomms are going to look for academic papers on a topic that interests you...but is also firmly rooted in the English spectrum. And generally speaking, such a paper should dovetail with your statement of purpose (SOP) so that the two work together to paint a picture of who you will be as a future English scholar. It could be a pointed analysis of Marlowe's use of language, a cross-cultural take on World War I poetry, a perspective on gender repression in 18th century French literature...but it has to be related to the field of English, somehow, and should point to potential future study.

 

-While having papers published can be a benefit, it's certainly not an expectation among adcomms. So if you are truly considering going down this path, you can breathe a sigh of relief about that, at least.

 

-This is 100% my opinion, and others might disagree (even vehemently), but if you don't have a burning desire to enter the field (as opposed to thinking "hey, that might be nice" or "I think I could do that..."), graduate study in English can be prohibitive. On the surface, it might sound like you get to do a lot of reading and writing -- and you do -- but it's an incredibly insular field that requires a lot of research on things that very few people, other than a few fellow academics, are going to care about. For instance, I'm hoping to spend the bulk of my five years focusing on the evolution of both form and trope in sonnets. And that's probably way too broad. (I have firm ideas about more specifics, but they're not worth mentioning here). Five pages of my writing sample discuss possible meanings of two sets of blank parentheses. In other words, you've probably got to be really interested in English, and furthermore have a pointed interest in something about English to make an application worthwhile.

 

-Finally, with regard to your New York / Pennsylvania thoughts...well, all three schools you mentioned are "top tier." Naturally that means that they accept fewer than ten percent of the applicants. Even if you discount applicants who either screw up on their applications or are otherwise unqualified, you're still looking at long odds to make it in. I used to consider myself a very strong candidate until I joined Grad Cafe and saw what other members have done in comparison. I still think I'm a good candidate for several schools -- good enough to not deter me from applying -- but there's a reason why I'm applying to at least twelve institutions this fall. The percentages just don't work in anyone's favor...and "fit" is a very real phenomenon.

 

So should you consider pursuing doctoral study in English? Yes, you should consider it -- you should really consider it. Think long and hard. There are more cons than pros, but depending on your focus, the pros may still outweigh the cons. Either way, good luck...and welcome again to Grad Cafe!

 

 

Thank you for the mostly reassuring words. I am indeed an English major- my English Major GPA is a 4.0 currently, so I'm okay in that department! I have relevant papers for the field I wish to pursue- but I definitely need to fine tune them if they are to accurately reflect my writing ability. In terms of personal "fit," as I mentioned in response to Surefire- I feel more comfortable with English and Academia then law. It seems like less of a transition which is why I am considering it. And I certainly think I would enjoy working within the field. 

 

If I was to go to grad school- I can't imagine treating it any differently than I currently am Law Admissions. I will only go somewhere where the risk-cost factor isn't too high. I would hope most for somewhere I could receive funding or a scholarship of some sort.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Pavelboca

[Pavelboca]

You will soon encounter (ad nauseam) the popular response: It's all about fit. This means that your interests have to be closely matched to whatever program you are interested in, not just applying to good schools that make the popular rankings. This means that a 'no name' school to someone may be a 'top school' in your subfield. You can only know what school fits where after hours and hours of research and reflection on your own work. Even at the 'low ranked' schools you are still looking at fairly low chances of admission (less than 20%), while as the poster above said the (traditionally) 'top schools' are even more rigorous (around 5% I suspect). Those admitted will have 'good stats', but what you will find is those with the 'best stats' on paper are not always the ones admitted. Again, it's about fit. As the great advice above suggests, scout around on the forum and read a shit ton to get your bearings.

 

This is interesting. Literally the total opposite of Law School admissions where all that matters is rank and tuition. I'll have to do some more research- I met with my academic advisor yesterday and she was literally clueless in giving me any helpful information about grad school. I've already heard more here in a few posts than I have before.

 

As I mentioned in the intro post- I am interested in pursuing some sort of field dealing with Cultural Studies- something closely aligned to film studies or popular culture. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Pavelboca

[Dr. Old Bill]

Ah, my apologies. I didn't know you were already an English major. In that case, you can disregard a lot of what I said above. (But sadly, you can't disregard the part about the dismal prospects of the post-graduate job market...).

[ProfLorax]

Good advice here so far. My addition is this: find out more about what academic careers entail. You mention liking reading and writing, which is great! But while those interests are key, I would say enjoying research and teaching are even more integral. So much of the academic career is obsessing over one unanswered question and going to great lengths to discover or craft an answer. I'd say that most often, the research takes up more time and resources than the writing. And then there's teaching-- with the way the job market is changing, more and more full-time jobs are teaching intensive. Perhaps talk to some professors in your department-- preferably recent hires. Ask about their job duties, scholarship, and grad school experience. See if how they describe their career aligns with what you envision for yourself.

 

Also, I'd like to end with the reminder that you can always write and read, no matter your field. I find that I did more writing when I was not in grad school, oddly enough. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by proflorax

[bhr]

If you are considering an academic career, especially in English or Comp/Rhet, the best thing you can do is reach out to professors at your own campus to get their feedback, both about graduate school itself and the career path you would be choosing. DM me and I can pass on some names at UCF to talk to.

 

I hate this idea that, because the job market is tight, that you should choose to pursue something else. The market is tight in almost every field, including law, and most law school grads finish with significant debt.

 

I would personally suggest, at 21-22 or so, that  you find a funded MA in a field you are interested in and pursue that. If, after that 2 year program, you feel like a PhD is still worth it, you can do so with more confidence that you are in the right field, and, if you don't, you can opt for law school with a stronger resume and background in writing.

 

(I would tell you to look into Professional Writing and Rhetorics programs, in that case)

[Pavelboca]

If you are considering an academic career, especially in English or Comp/Rhet, the best thing you can do is reach out to professors at your own campus to get their feedback, both about graduate school itself and the career path you would be choosing. DM me and I can pass on some names at UCF to talk to.

 

I hate this idea that, because the job market is tight, that you should choose to pursue something else. The market is tight in almost every field, including law, and most law school grads finish with significant debt.

 

I would personally suggest, at 21-22 or so, that  you find a funded MA in a field you are interested in and pursue that. If, after that 2 year program, you feel like a PhD is still worth it, you can do so with more confidence that you are in the right field, and, if you don't, you can opt for law school with a stronger resume and background in writing.

 

(I would tell you to look into Professional Writing and Rhetorics programs, in that case)

I've been under the impression that getting a Masters somewhat affects your acceptance chances of getting accepted into a funded phd program somewhere else. Is that inaccurate?

[ProfLorax]

I've been under the impression that getting a Masters somewhat affects your acceptance chances of getting accepted into a funded phd program somewhere else. Is that inaccurate?

 

That is inaccurate (with the exception of Penn State). 6/8 of my cohort came in with MA's, and many applicants here on this board have ended up at wonderful institutions post-MA. Read through the posts on this forum, and go talk to your recently hired professors. There are tons of threads here about English MA programs: the advantages and disadvantages, funded MA programs, and so much more.

[mikers86]

I've been under the impression that getting a Masters somewhat affects your acceptance chances of getting accepted into a funded phd program somewhere else. Is that inaccurate?

 

Yes and no. Some programs prefer fresh BA's while others require the MA. Some view students without the MA to be easier to "mold" into what a program desires in its final product - less solidified in their approaches, easier to guide because they're less opinionated, etc. This is hardly always the case. My incoming cohort has several MA's (myself included) while historically they've admitted just a few. Harvard tends to be the same. Other programs (BU) use their MA program as a feeder for the PhD. As proflorax said, check the threads. Some programs will let you apply MA credits towards the PhD; others won't and you ultimately start over, though you have more experience and a better sense of self (academically and personally) having done an MA.

[bhr]

It's important to note that some of the answers you get on here are influenced by the type of program you want to get in to. English and Lit programs lean toward accepted more people from the BA directly, which Comp/Rhet almost always wants the MA/MS first (or, at least all the major programs I looked at did). Again, the best thing you can do is identify people who are doing what you think you want to study, and talk to them directly.