first phase

[zenith12]

Hi. I'm currently in the first phase of deciding where to apply, who can/would write a rec. letter for me, what to take this fall (just for cerebral stimulation and to beef up my classroom mojo before graduate school), what graduate school semester to aim for, how to fund my education, whether or not to quit my fulltime job (in this bad economy that may be a bad idea), etc.

Here are my research interests in order of preference (and experience):

1. Surface water hydrology

2. Environmental planning

3. Geography

My undergraduate degree is a B.A. in biology. I earned it in 1997 from a very small private classic liberal arts school, when I was such an immature naive child. It's embarrassing to talk about now. I somehow managed to finish my senior thesis and graduate, even though I was in a very dysfunctional relationship throughout those 4 years. In the very last semester, I broke up with my dirt bag fiance (yay!), but it was kind of too late to make a change for the better. So I left college with a very bad taste in my mouth for college and college life.

I entered the professional world as a biological science tech. for the National Park Service (moved out west and "found myself"). I was a wildland firefighter for a couple years and then decided to work in environmental planning. Then, I landed a job with an environmental engineering firm, and that is where I am now. I really enjoy learning, so I decided to try the college classroom again in 2007, and I loved it! Thus far, I've taken Calculus I, II, and III and an AutoCAD class. I have a 3.0 GPA in those classes. This summer I am taking Physics I (scary!) at a local community college. Now, I want to apply to graduate school. It has taken a while for me to get to this point in my life, but I'm here, 100% on my own, and I need to decide what to do now. Ten years ago, I couldn't care less about school. Now, it's like I'm on fire and can't wait to get into a good program.

So, my questions are this:

1. How should I go about deciding where to apply? My relatives and employers think I should apply to good schools (Ga Tech, UT-Austin, etc), but with my undergrad GPA (2.4), I'm sure that would be a waste of time. However, I do have significant experience in my field, and my GRE scores are competitive. I guess I'm looking for a reality check here. Relatives and people who love/admire you often do not offer the best real-world advice.

2. Letters of Recommendation: If you apply to more than 10 schools, how do you ask your LOR writers to write 10+ letters? I can understand 2-4 letters, but 10+?!

3. Out of state applications: If you see that the cost of education outside your home state is crazy expensive, do you just ignore the amount and apply anyway?

4. Second bachelors degree: My first degree is in biology. We all know that an undergrad biology degree is so broad and general that to specialized in anything, you really need another degree. I have discovered that I am good at engineering and policy. So, I was thinking about just going for another undergrad degree, to specialize in engineering or hydrogeology. I really want to go to graduate school now though. However, a good undergrad engineering degree is great too. I am at a cross roads I think: one is to go to graduate school to study my interests (whoever will take me) and the other is to go into an undergrad engineering program. Any thoughts or experiences out there about this particular cross roads? I really can't make up my mind here. Can you tell?

That's it for now. This is my first post, but I think I'll be around here more. I take physics this summer, so I will be busy once that starts. But for the next couple weeks, I'm determined to make a decision about what to do.

[frankdux]

1. apply to a range of schools with realistic expectations. but yeah, a 2.4 is typically not Top 10 material unless you have phenomenal life experience and research experience.

2. my LOR writers wrote 11. If they're professors, they'll usually understand. Just let them know beforehand the number of schools you'll be applying to and gauge their reaction accordingly. Also, be organized in how you get them the forms, or links to online forms that they'll be filling out.

3. if you're interested in a PhD, then hopefully the programs you're interested in will offer to fund you in the forms of teaching assistantships or research assistantships. if it's just a masters you're shooting for, then funding will be less likely, and then you'd have to resort to loans. in this case, it is really your call if the financial debt you will take on will be offset by the love (and pay) of the job you hope to obtain after school.

4. you don't always have to have an undergrad degree in the subject you want to study in grad school, but taking extra classes before grad school can be a great way to boost your undergrad gpa and get yourself some more current LORs, and possible research experience. perhaps there's a middle ground here. take a year or two of undergrad courses specifically in the field you want to study, then apply to grad school?

[Stories]

Sounds like your natural career progression is a fine fit for a graduate program. With a 2.4uGPA, the biggest concern most schools will have is can you complete graduate coursework at an adequate level? I think by showing you've taken classes since that time and done well in them, you can be a successful graduate student.

What you need to determine is the type of degree you want and go for it. Obviously, you can't apply to random programs in which you don't have the career or educational background for, but anything that's related (even with a "general" biology degree) you should be fine. Specific schools will offer guidelines of what types of majors and work histories their competitive applicants have.

Apply to various schools at all levels, particularly if you're flexible about moving. You never know where you'll get in, and you won't know unless you try. You owe it to yourself to attempt it at the very least.

[RedPotato]

2. Letters of Recommendation: If you apply to more than 10 schools, how do you ask your LOR writers to write 10+ letters? I can understand 2-4 letters, but 10+?!

Usually, Its the same letter with minor tweeks. And, its part of their job, you do pay their salaries, you know!

[Stories]

Usually, Its the same letter with minor tweeks. And, its part of their job, you do pay their salaries, you know!

:roll: ...that's all.

[zenith12]

Thanks so much for the replies.

RE: my GPA. Ok, I have done a bit of research on possible masters programs to which I'll be applying. Looks like the last 60 hours of coursework are the most important. So, I'm looking at my undergrad transcript (from 10 years ago) and thinking of ways to ameliorate the C's I received in Organic Chem and Botany the last semester of undergrad. If I retake those courses at a local college, would it be possible to REPLACE the C's with A's? I mean, would the 10-year old C's totally cancel? I guess it depends on the end user graduate program and how they interpret transcripts.

I need to make a decision on what to take this coming fall before I apply to a grad. program. Should I retake Organic Chem I and II and perhaps Botany too? Or should I continue on with my new found interests (engineering stuff: physics, linear algebra, diff. eg, geology etc)? What would look better? Any thoughts? I can make the decision myself, but I'm seeking experience or thoughts about this.

Most of the grad. programs I'm looking at do require basic chemistry but not organic chemistry. If I retake organic chemistry I and II and make A's, that would presumably take care of improving my GPA and show that I'm up-to-date on chemistry concepts. But, taking both organic chem I and II would take 2 semesters. That would mean that I would have to wait to apply to a grad program another year! Like I said before, I'm on fire right now to get someplace NOW, especially since I finally know exactly what I want to study.

[noojens]

Here are my thoughts on your situation.

First, what is it exactly that you want to do? You mentioned planning, geography, policy, environmental engineering.... If your statement of purpose on a grad school application is as vague as your posts here are, it's unlikely you'll get in anywhere.

Second, your GPA. To be quite honest, with a 2.4 GPA you'll have a hard time getting in to any grad school, let alone one in the top 100. Your 3.0 in community college coursework is a little better, but still not grad school material. If your end goal is a graduate degree from a good university, you need a track record of strong academic performance.

Finally, it sounds to me like you're excited about getting back into academia, and exploring it in a way you couldn't the first time around. If this is true, I think you'd be better off in an undergrad program, where you can take a variety of coursework and find your true calling, than in a graduate program. Grad programs are typically highly focused on one specific area; they don't afford much room for exploration.

So much for the reality check. On to the strategy!

If I were in your shoes, I would concentrate my energies on applying to a strong undergraduate school. I'd probably apply to bigger schools that have solid programs in engineering, geography/planning, and life sciences (and any other areas you're interested in). Places like Madison, Michigan, UIUC, Berkeley (if you're in CA), OSU, U. of Washington, etc. come to mind -- big state schools with good reputations, tons of research opportunities, broad course offerings and relatively cheap tuition. I don't know where you're from, but you might look at the flagship state school in your region as a starting point.

As you decide which schools to apply to, make sure to ask admissions people about transferring credits from your previous degree. You should be able, at a minimum, to transfer your basic science classes and humanities/social science courses; this should shorten your second degree time to around two years (if you go full time).

Those two years get you a second degree (which should improve your job prospects and compensation, even if you decide not to go to grad school), time to explore a lot of fields and decide on your area of specialization, a demonstrated track record in tough courses at a strong institution (shoot for a 3.5+ GPA if you want to be competitive), research opportunities (research experience is perhaps the most important factor on a science grad school application), and relationships with big-name professors (potential recommenders).

Plus, college is just fun. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[zenith12]

First, what is it exactly that you want to do? You mentioned planning, geography, policy, environmental engineering.... If your statement of purpose on a grad school application is as vague as your posts here are, it's unlikely you'll get in anywhere

A lot of people probably are thinking the same thing you are about the above research interests being ....scattered. But you know what? That's the problem, I have found. People don't see the connections between planning and engineering and geography (GIS) and ecology and policy. And honestly I think that's why we have the serious environmental problems we have today. Actually I know it's why.

I.e. there was a time when the best engineers thought paving and straightening every creek and stream in the nation would be best. We all know that's ridiculous now, right?

Fortunately, there are some schools who have decided to create a new degree/field of study: watershed science. I have found only a handful of programs, and they seem to be exactly what I'm looking for -- by combining the topics of surface water hydrology, geography, environmental engineering, planning, policy, etc. to tackle real world problems like flooding and stormwater pollution and source water contamination. Some schools do not have such a program, and those would be the schools where I would have to explain my intentions in more detail than I am here, of course.

So, it's not as vague as you think. It's just a new concept perhaps. This is such an important issue for me that I thought I would try to correct you on that first and foremost.

[rising_star]

A lot of people probably are thinking the same thing you are about the above research interests being ....scattered. But you know what? That's the problem, I have found. People don't see the connections between planning and engineering and geography (GIS) and ecology and policy. And honestly I think that's why we have the serious environmental problems we have today. Actually I know it's why.

I think there are plenty of people that see these connections. Often they are environmental engineers or in geography departments, working across disciplines. In response to your post elsewhere, you may want to look at Johns Hopkins University. The real question though is whether you see yourself in a hydrology, engineering, environmental science, or geography department. If you're applying for the master's first, you may want to consider which options offer funding...