My Odds? Lots of Questions!

[eu4ria]

So, I've had a tremendous amount of difficulty finding average GPA/GRE scores and admissions ratesat many PhD programs. I only found stats for Duke, which were pretty encouraging for me. I've harassed all my professors and told them my stats, research, story, etc., but they all seem pretty hesitant to talk specifics. So, can anyone with experience applying to a bunch of PhD programs give me, like, a ballpark figure of the kind or rank (top 20, 30, whatever) program into which I can probably get, with a percentile odd guess, or something? 

 

It was really easy to find this kind of information for undergrad, so I feel as though I'm totally in the dark here. Obviously, fit is more important for grad school, right? Can anyone give me more info about that, as well? 

 

So, going into my third year (I was going to graduate in three but decided to stay on for a fourth year because I've blown off stats and want to strengthen my app with a couple 500-level grad classes and hopefully more research), here are my stats:

 

3.84 GPA cumulative with 109 units done at University of Arizona Honors College (not a super impressive school, I know, especially considering the elite undergrads from which a bunch of applicants are coming, but I got a full ride here for my National Merit Semifinalist award)

167/160/5.0 GRE practice test (with no studying, so presumably I'll score around there when I take it later this year. I did well on the SAT, and honestly it seems like the same exact thing with more advanced writing.) 

Edit: 3.89 Soc GPA, 4.0 Latin American Studies GPA, 3.67 Spanish GPA

 

My research is mediocre at best: I did transcribing and open note coding during my first semester for 2 units. During my study abroad in Cuba, I did a 3-unit honors independent study (a 35-pager that was honestly not that heavy on the independent research, mostly just literature review), "The Afro-Cuban Experience vs. The African-American Experince: A Historical-Materialist Review". I submitted it to a couple undergraduate journals, but no luck yet... Finally, I did interviews (some in Spanish!) and transcribing for the Mayor's Commission on Poverty here in Tucson for a 3-unit class. All pretty light-weight crap, I know. 

 

I should have a good recommendation from Jeffrey Sallaz and then from the prof for whom I do my Honors Thesis (and that might end up as a publishable paper/ at least a better writing sample than my Cuba paper, I hope). Overall, most of my classes have been with grad students, a couple of whom I have great friendships with, but I only have decent relationships with a couple of the faculty here. I'm working on that. 

 

Other than Stats and the Honors Thesis, I'm already done with the Soc major requirements, and also am almost done with my Latin American Studies major and Spanish minor. I hope to do research in Latin America, maybe Cuba, if I can improve upon my Spanish a bit more. Also, I'm (half) Chicano. Does that still help? Should I be sure to take a bunch more Soc classes during my final 60 units? Just how important is that? I mean, obviously I don't want to go into grad school having taken mostly LAS and Spanish classes during the past two years. I am taking two Soc electives now. 

 

My story: I come from a family of academics. My mom was a philosopher of film before she died when I was young. I've always wanted to teach. To be honest, I want to teach more than I want to research. I know that's kind of taboo, so I shouldn't admit that, right? I would be happy if I can get tenure anywhere, even a community college but preferably a LAC. Am I aiming too low? Is it wrong to value teaching over advancing the science? I expect people will answer that in the affirmative. 

 

Also, I love the West Coast, but would prefer to go home (grew up mostly in New Haven, dad works at Yale) to New England/NYC. The future mother of my children is a couple of years younger and goes to Northeastern undergrad. Is the Northeastern PhD, ranked 62nd, below me, or a decent safety? If I get into Yale or Harvard, I'd go there (I went to UA with my ex-fiancee and lived with her my first year here; obviously it didn't work out. I'm going to try to not make the same mistake with going to a lesser school to be with a girl but obviously am super in love...), but, yeah, just how much worse are schools ranked 40-60? Do they still offer good funding? I got a full ride to undergrad and have money, so I'm not too too worried about funding. But obviously it is a factor, and I shouldn't make a hundred thousand dollar investment in the relationship, or whatever, plus future loss in earnings, or whatever... But money really isn't that important to me. 

 

I know that was a lot of questions for one post, but help me out! 

Edited September 14, 2014 by eu4ria

[GeoDUDE!]

5%

[faculty]

Any research experience, even transcribing and coding, will put you ahead of many of your peers that are coming directly out of undergrad. Your thesis should be a nice writing sample, especially if you finish it up this year and have it ready to go by application season next fall.

 

I would talk to your professors - both graduate students and faculty - about applying and to get advice on graduate school, but I would only ask tenure-track faculty to write you letters. I know that's tough at a large state school like Arizona, where graduate students teach so many of the classes, but if it's at all possible, you really want three letters from established scholars in their fields (even if Latin American Studies or Spanish). 

 

Good luck!

[SocGirl2013]

Look, it looks like you have the right experiences and CV to get into some good programs, but as people always say all across this board, at the end of the day it's fit that determines your chances and really even with all the right qualifications and the right fit, external factors may prohibit your acceptance. The best you can do is research the programs in depth and apply to the best research fits as much as you can. I don't really understand what you want to study in grad school, and if this isn't something you have considered enough, that should be your first and most important focus. Don't choose programs based on location or even rankings to a certain degree, it will have no impact on admissions whatsoever. Figure out what you want to study and look for programs that specialize in your subfield. 

 

Reading your post I feel pretty confident you have the right grades/gre scores/research experience etc., but none of it matters without the right fit and that's where you have to put in work now. Also, there is absolutely no way of telling anyone their "odds" unless I represent some admission committee.

Good luck! 

[eu4ria]

Thanks for all the help, you guys.

 

Good point, SocGirl! So, fit is really, really important? I actually had my best professor tell me that every department has more or less all of the basic subfields, and that fit is "overrated"... I find it so damn hard to decide on a specialty this early! I've taken a Criminology class, Deviance Theory, Juvenile Delinquency, and Soc of Rights, Ethics, and Law, so I have somewhat of a specialty in criminology/deviance? And then, with the LAS and Spanish, an Africana studies class, and that independent study I did, I'd say my second specialty is race/ethnicity. I guess those would be my comps if I chose now. But I'm also interested in urban sociology and sex and gender. Can someone tell me more about how to determine fit? If I haven't exactly figured it out totally by grad school, will my GPA and GRE really not count for shit without fit? 

[Applemiu]

 Can someone tell me more about how to determine fit?

 

 

You need to show that you have done your homework: that you have an idea of what you want to study in grad school and that you have investigated the department to make sure it suits your needs and interests. That said, after you get in you are free, within certain limits, to choose a different path.

[eu4ria]

OK, OK. Just how extensive does said homework have to be, though? For instance, if I were applying to a program in Deviance and talked about my classes in Juvenile Delinquency, Deviance Theory, Criminology, and Soc of Law and about the independent study I did that talked a bit about how racism is  institutionalized in the penal system in both Cuba and the US, would that be enough, basically? What else is one supposed to do other than talk about the classes one has taken and maybe about particular theorists one finds interesting, maybe read a couple of papers the profs at the school to which one is applying have written ... ? 

[eu4ria]

Also, just how much more competitive are the top 10 schools vs top 20 vs 20-40 vs 40-60? Am I right to think that with the leg up I have at UA and Yale (dad, mom, and grandpa studied/worked there), those are targets, anything above ~20 is a reach, and 40-60 are "safeties"? How safe would, say, Northeastern be for me, if I'm a decent fit? 

[Applemiu]

OK, OK. Just how extensive does said homework have to be, though? For instance, if I were applying to a program in Deviance and talked about my classes in Juvenile Delinquency, Deviance Theory, Criminology, and Soc of Law and about the independent study I did that talked a bit about how racism is  institutionalized in the penal system in both Cuba and the US, would that be enough, basically? What else is one supposed to do other than talk about the classes one has taken and maybe about particular theorists one finds interesting, maybe read a couple of papers the profs at the school to which one is applying have written ... ? 

 

Yes, that's enough. Just do that rather than thinking too much about "rank" etc. The admission to grad school is a different process than the admission to college.

 

Also, just how much more competitive are the top 10 schools vs top 20 vs 20-40 vs 40-60? Am I right to think that with the leg up I have at UA and Yale (dad, mom, and grandpa studied/worked there), those are targets, anything above ~20 is a reach, and 40-60 are "safeties"? How safe would, say, Northeastern be for me, if I'm a decent fit? 

 

Sorry, but unless any of your relatives was a tenured professor, there is no 'leg up'. Again, don't think too much about that stuff, think about researching institutions for what they are doing, that is, research.

[eu4ria]

OK, awesome. Thanks for the info.

 

Yeah, my mom was, so I think it is a leg up . I don't know exactly that I want my research focus to be, though, and I know I'm passionate about teaching, so really I'm more focused on placement than on exactly what each professor at any given university is writing about. I pretty much feel like I'll find something interesting to research wherever I go, and the professor here with whom I've talked most in person about this basically told me that focus is super overrated and that he wouldn't really recommend even doing a soc PhD if one doesn't get into a top ~20 ranked program. I mean, this is coming from a Berkeley grad, so there's definitely some snobbery there, and if I only get into one program I will sure as hell go there even if it's nowhere near top 20, but... I'm getting very mixed messages and am not going to disregard rank entirely just yet. I mean, half the people on this board seem to think it matters. Why--how--am I supposed to stop thinking about that? I'd rather go to the higher-ranked school where every graduate gets a good professorship than worry about fit. Is that so wrong?

 

Edit: And as for UA, it says specifically on the grad admissions webpage that UA grads get special consideration, so I do believe them that there is a 'leg up'. I am still trying to figure out how grad admissions are different from undergrad, but so far all I've really done is take a practice GRE, and that seemed exactly like the SAT--and then there's GPA, the final 60 units of which count more. And then research/work experience, right? So, the three main factors are the same, no? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this and not conceptualizing this process as highly similar to the undergrad process.  

Edited September 19, 2014 by eu4ria

[uselesstheory]

The most important thing is actually wanting to spend 6-7 years working on your research, publishing, and teaching in a department with an atmosphere in which you will thrive with an advisor with whom you truly want to work. Try to ignore the existence of rank, prestige, and what your one professor said and think about what you enjoy and what fascinates you. What would make you happy in graduate school and beyond? If you don't know how to answer those questions, continue researching, reading, and narrowing your own thought process until you can see the meaning behind your intended work as primary and rank (as it applies to the job market and working with top faculty) as the foundation for your own path in the field.

 

Nothing is guaranteed; give it your best shot, and try to relax about standardized and typical measures that will be part of your application. There is much more to "getting in" than that, and overemphasizing prestige and "chances" and possible connections - essentially, what only proves important until you are actually admitted - rather than your actual abilities, may annoy a lot of people on admissions committees, especially if you aren't a good fit. 

 

Also: talk to graduate students in the department as well! Some of your professors probably had a much different experience than the grad students given different ages/when they applied. Some of the best advice I have received has been from grad students.

 

Last edit: Taking "a bunch of soc classes" to...look better? makes no sense to me. If that is your only reason for wanting to take more courses in sociology when you are ​applying to a sociology PhD program, then you need to reexamine your motives. I know you want to teach, and so do I, and that is fantastic, but think about what you're saying: by minimizing the importance of those courses and not focusing on the knowledge you may gain from them that will benefit you intellectually and academically, not just on paper, you are sending a strong message that you would be, more or less, ignoring the value of the instruction. I reiterate: do not apply to graduate school if you think that getting in automatically implies your future success as a given. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by uselesstheory

[Applemiu]

I don't know exactly that I want my research focus to be, though, and I know I'm passionate about teaching, so really I'm more focused on placement than on exactly what each professor at any given university is writing about. I pretty much feel like I'll find something interesting to research wherever I go, and the professor here with whom I've talked most in person about this basically told me that focus is super overrated and that he wouldn't really recommend even doing a soc PhD if one doesn't get into a top ~20 ranked program.

(...)

Why--how--am I supposed to stop thinking about that? I'd rather go to the higher-ranked school where every graduate gets a good professorship than worry about fit. Is that so wrong?

 

The fact is that nobody has ever gotten into a top 20 program because he likes teaching and the best way to get a job is to be in such a program... Those programs are all research oriented. They could tell you: "If you like teaching so much, why not a master or another kind of degree? Why a Phd?."

They are not going to "hire" you just because you would like to be hired. And for your own sake, don't ever say aloud "I am sure I will find something interesting to research wherever I go".

I suggest that you read more the posts in this forum and most importantly talk to more people in the field. 

By the way, some Phd programs have a "teaching track" for sociology. I know there is one at NYU. It could be worthwhile to check those out.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Applemiu

[SOCphd15]

I don't know exactly that I want my research focus to be, though, and I know I'm passionate about teaching, so really I'm more focused on placement than on exactly what each professor at any given university is writing about. I pretty much feel like I'll find something interesting to research wherever I go, and the professor here with whom I've talked most in person about this basically told me that focus is super overrated and that he wouldn't really recommend even doing a soc PhD if one doesn't get into a top ~20 ranked program.

(...)

Why--how--am I supposed to stop thinking about that? I'd rather go to the higher-ranked school where every graduate gets a good professorship than worry about fit. Is that so wrong?

 

The fact is that nobody has ever gotten into a top 20 program because he likes teaching and the best way to get a job is to be in such a program... Those programs are all research oriented. They could tell you: "If you like teaching so much, why not a master or another kind of degree? Why a Phd?."

They are not going to "hire" you just because you would like to be hired. And for your own sake, don't ever say aloud "I am sure I will find something interesting to research wherever I go".

I suggest that you read more the posts in this forum and most importantly talk to more people in the field. 

By the way, some Phd programs have a "teaching track" for sociology. I know there is one at NYU. It could be worthwhile to check those out.

To add to this, some schools are more teaching rather than research oriented anyway, Kansas is the first to come to kind. Once you've received an MA, you can teach at least a community college or lower. 

[Applemiu]

To add to this, some schools are more teaching rather than research oriented anyway, Kansas is the first to come to kind. Once you've received an MA, you can teach at least a community college or lower. 

 

Yes, I thought the same actually.

[FertMigMort]

I actually had my best professor tell me that every department has more or less all of the basic subfields, and that fit is "overrated"

Can someone tell me more about how to determine fit? If I haven't exactly figured it out totally by grad school, will my GPA and GRE really not count for shit without fit? 

Yeah, not to overstate it, but your professor is full of shit.

Go look through the AMA I did on getting into grad school (stickied at the top of this forum) on more info about fit.

If you have a stellar GPA/GRE we might let you in if fit is just okay, but not if fit was out and out bad. We also didn't like to admit students who didn't have a clear idea of what they wanted to do, even if it was just an area.

[SOCphd15]

Yeah, not to overstate it, but your professor is full of shit.

Go look through the AMA I did on getting into grad school (stickied at the top of this forum) on more info about fit.

If you have a stellar GPA/GRE we might let you in if fit is just okay, but not if fit was out and out bad. We also didn't like to admit students who didn't have a clear idea of what they wanted to do, even if it was just an area.

Fit can refer not only to your interests as an academic, but personalities within the department, too. If an adcomm doesn't think you will get along with your peers, this may factor into their decision.