Rethinking my PhD plans

[Guest seriously rethinking]

I need some advice from some of you out there. I am from the East Coast and accepted to do my PhD at a very good school in the midwest. I am 28 years old, so I feel that this is my one shot to do the PhD, given that it will take 4 years or so, and I don't want to finish when I am 50. I am starting to want to back out of my decision to do the program, not because I think I'm not smart enough or something like that, but because I don't know if I want to be poor for at least the next 4 years and also far away from my family. My brother has kids that I absolutely adore, and I know that if I go to the midwest, I will rarely get to see them. Also, I wonder when I will be able to have kids of my own. Children are not at the top of my priority list at this moment, but if I do the PhD I don't know when I would have time to have children. Also, if I don't do the PhD, I could find a pretty good job and make decent money and maintain my standard of living (w/my husband).

I just am not 100% convinced that the PhD, given where I have to go to do it and how long it will take, is what my heart is telling me to do.

Is anyone else out there having similar thoughts? Can anyone offer advice??? Please reply.

[Debating]

You say you don't want to be poor for the next four years, but you seem not to be considering the fact that a Ph.D. will increase your earning potential tremendously in the long run. I think it's worth it, but it's ultimately a decision you have to make.

[Guest Ida]

Quite a few posters have those thoughts. You have to ask yourself in the end what you really want to do and whether you see yourself in academia in the future (usually a PhD is done with that intent). It does not seem to be an easy road, nor a very wealthy one, but you will not know for sure until you try it. My advice would be to go and see how the program is like, whether the students there are happy and whether you can see yourself as a happy person in that lifestyle. Did you visit the school, ask faculty and students there?

The distance is alas a problem, but you'd likely be so busy that time will just fly by. In the age of internet, phones and everything, you could easily get in touch with your family, and you could always find cheap flights to go back once in a while, or make use of funded conferences held in your family's area to visit.

The money is an issue, but you could always do internships in the summer and/or try to do extra research. Some faculty may be accomodating with their research funds and some schools often offer extra fellowships, scholarships to their applicants (mine did offer a nice top-up). Try to ask the schools this diplomatically?

As for children, I do not know what to say. Many people have children during their PhD or post-doc, but it does not seem to be an easy task to manage. I am interested to see what other people think of this as well.

In the end, I still think you should try it and see how you feel once in grad school. It is difficult to know beforehand.

[Guest Ida]

Debating:

The PhD does not really increase the earning potential. In fact most profs are paid very poorly and their salaries achieve satisfactory levels only after they get tenure and full professorship. My university publishes the profs names and salary figures for those that earn beyond 50'000 and believe me, it is quite shocking. One is better paid as a high school teacher than as an assistant professor, and a post-doc seem to be just a small step ahead of graduate students in terms of money (but less job security).

A PhD may be desirable in industry jobs, for certain fields, say reseacrh molecular biologist or chemist in faramceutical companies. But those are few. Moreover, many states and provinces have regulations that require companies to pay higher salaries for people with higher degrees, so companies are not inclined to hire them. A friend of mine with an MSc in Computer Science did not write this degree in his resume when applying for programing jobs because companies seemed to discard it whenever he did (why would they pay 10'000 more for the same work done afterall? They care for their costs).

You might find the following article from http://www.phds.org interestign http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0417,k ... 011,1.html

[Guest 2nd Go Around]

I think it is natural to have second thoughts. I first applied for grad school in 1990. Got accepted into a good MFA program. In the final weeks of one of my undergrad classes the prof told our small grad school bound class, that he hoped that we would all rethink any fantasy of becoming professors of art history because it was never going to happen. Well, I huffed, did some research and that little sliver of doubt grew until I decided that going to grad school was a colosal waste of my life. I turned down my offer and got the first of one of my good-paying soul sucking jobs.

Fast forward 13 years - 3rd good-paying soul sucking job. I was still thinking about grad school, with regret. I applied to MA in Media Studies get accepted and went. Had a blast. Best time of my life. Great experience. Worked full-time and studied full time. It was hard but I have only a small debt to my own investments. Decide to go for PhD. First round - all rejections. Regroup and ponder my options and realize that despite being conflicted about this, I really want to do it despite all the warnings, doom and gloom, possible lack of job prospects. Checked with a few family sages who on the QT said emphatically....you are going to likely work for another 25 years so you better be doing what makes you happy.... money comes and money goes.

What I have learned...Life is long and being a growup kinda sucks - BUT I have a chance to do something that I want to do. So, I'm packing up my husband and the cats, moving and going to school. Again. I am thrilled, scared and still conflicted. But I will never again experience the regret of not taking my shot at something that I want to do. It's not the most glamourous school nor the most prestigious. Instead, its well respected and they offered me a great package to live in a fairly cool city to study TV culture. What better way to spend the next 4 years.

So, I'm happily quiting my 4th good-paying soul sucking job.

[PETRAL6]

That's really encouraging 2nd... good luck and hopefully your soul will be "un"sucked in the course of your studies.

[Guest hydsnare]

Ida:

I think it is important to distinguish between disciplines. Business School academia is very well paid... am not sure whether B-schools dont qualify as soul sucking but since thats my field - will happily assert that it isnt... in fact some of the disciplines within the b-schools such as finance pay over 120K for asst prof's...

but the money cant be the reason to do a phd - most MBAs earn far more than that... it has to be coz one wants to be in academia...

[Panda77]

Hey rethinking,

My situation is very similar if not even worst. As for the age, I’m 28 as well and will start my PhD in the fall (right before turning 29!) and family wise not only I’m still not married, but I will be moving from another continent (Europe) where I will be living my family and friends who I plan to visit once or twice a year (over Christmas and during the summer, that is if I don’t have to work over the summer of course). So you see, I can understand very well how you feel, I know the first period will be hard (given the fact that I won’t have friends around) I will miss my family and my country, and I will have to be really careful money wise (although the cost of living where I’m going is farley low). Still, I do believe that a PhD is what I want in terms of career plans and so it all will be worthwhile. Mi suggestion is to try to detach yourself from your contingent situation and try to see yourself in a 10-year time. What do you envision yourself doing in terms of your career? Do you need a PhD to do that? If that’s so than go for it and you’ll see that everything else will work out.

I understand your concern about children (I’m a woman too) but really think that too will simply come very naturally. Personally, I would really like to be able to plan my life in detail, but I realize that is impossible, what I can do though is set my priorities. I know I will want to have kids someday and if this will mean taking a year or two longer to complete my PhD so be it, and if taking care of my family will mean less time devoted to research and not winning a Nobel prize oh well, I’m ready to give that up! And even more my concern goes on whether I will be able to return to my country (given the fact that the job market here might not be that great), but again things will probably just get themselves straight out when the time comes though.

I believe that no decision we make today will completely drive the rest of our lives, things change with time and we will be called to make so many more life altering decisions. It is, and will always be, hard to make such decisions though, so is completely normal to feel hesitant!

[Guest Cridamour]

(Hi Panda! Nice to bump into a familiar "face" here. )

Now, yes, these decisions are not easy. I am in a similar situation, but I am not hesitating whether to go for a PhD or not. A quick sketch: I'm a 26-year-old girl/woman, I've been living with my boyfriend for the past 2 years and I'm moving away to another continent. Of course, I am worried about moving so far away from everything and everyone I know. The reason I am not doubting is because I have experienced how important it is to be able to do something that satisfies you. The past years I have worked in some of the best jobs there are for someone with my current degree, and I still felt frustrated and I know that, for the kind of job that I want to do, I need a PhD. I had an unsuccessful application round last year, and I also seriously considered whether to reapply or not. In the end, not getting a funded offer last year was the best thing that could happen to me, it gave me time to reconsider and confirmed that I really wanted to get a PhD.

As some people have suggested, you need to consider you options. The main thing (in my opinion) is that you enjoy your job, because if you don't, your personal life will also be affected by this. I presume that you have worked for a couple of years and that you have worked some different jobs. So, you'll probably already know whether these types of jobs can keep you challenged/happy for the rest of your career. If not, consider your other options with your current degree. If none of those could keep you happy, you need to look further. I believe that, if you feel passionate about getting a PhD, then you should go for it, because it'll most likely make you happy in the long run, even though you will miss family and friends. About the being poor part... maybe I was lucky, but I feel I'll have more money than ever... Of course, if you have no funding and you need to indebt yourself to get the PhD, that's another issue altogether...

[Debating]

Ida, from the article you posted:

Welcome to the world of the humanities Ph.D. student, 2004, where promises mean little and revolt is in the air.

I'm in Computer Science, where the average salary of a Ph.D. is twice that of a B.S.... I made the wrong assumption that applies to other disciplines as well. For me personally, a Ph.D. is a very sound economic investment AND we get paid much better as TA's anyway.

Even if it weren't so, I'd still get a Ph.D. because I know I want to work in academia. So serisly rethinking, just think about what you see yourself doing with the degree. Is it going to be worth it and make you happy in the long run? A couple of students in my program had babies, took a semester off, then continued with their studies. It must be hard for them but it's doable and you can also just finish your residency requirement and then do your dissertation remotely. Best of luck!

[Guest seriously rethinking]

Thank you, everyone, for your input.

I am still very much debating what to do. My husband is very supportive and wants me to follow my dream, if teaching college is in fact my dream. The debate, though, is just as much a professional debate as it is financial. My husband and I currently live in the suburbs of NYC and between the two of us, we make over $100K/year after taxes. My husband is a high school teacher, and his salary will be reduced because the salaries are not nearly as high where we are going. My stipend is $12K, but I've been told we'll be taxed on the waived tuition bill as well, so the $12K will basically be going back to Uncle Sam.

Are the two of us ready to move to the middle of nowhere to live on basically $50K each year for the next 4-5 years? Will I definitely get a tenure-track job afterward? Is the payoff worth it?

It seems there is a lot of uncertainty in all of this. The above link to the Village Voice article was very eye-opening, as were some of the related blogs (listed within that article). Will I end up being an adjunct for life? If I get a tenure-track position, will it be in some undesirable location where I will be far from family and miserable?

By the way, I would be going for a PhD in the humanities so presumably I would not be getting some amazing salary on the other end, regardless of where I ended up teaching.

All opinions welcome. Thank you so much.

[Guest Ida]

I'm in Computer Science, where the average salary of a Ph.D. is twice that of a B.S.... I made the wrong assumption that applies to other disciplines as well. For me personally, a Ph.D. is a very sound economic investment AND we get paid much better as TA's anyway.

I am in Computing Science as well, but in the major companies I see only senior people, usually bussinessmen, with the big salaries you say. Entry level positions here in the West Coast are about 4-50'000/year and they work people overtime and on the weekend for no extra pay. Not a job for a woman who wants a family. That is if one does not burn out in 4-5 years of such work.

As for the TA salaries, they are more or less uniform accross disciplines, at least in the decent universities. In CS you might get to teach less and research more because faculty funds are more abundant than, say, humanities, or you can do more internships, but that won't put you very far ahead of the grad student pack moneywise. As for prof salaries, there's surely many factors and politics that determine them, so cannot really tell.

I love academia for what it is, in spite of the little money. I do not know if many people will agree with this. But I want to do something I am happy doing in the long run. I did a research-based MSc and loved it, so I know what I am getting myself in.

[Guest Once Conflicted]

That is a big decision. A bit bigger than we had to deal with. We are only going from gross $75K and I have opted to commute cross-border so my spouse can continue to work in Canada. At least for the time being.

I have always assumed that it will be difficult to get tenure and as such hope for the best and prepare to teach as well as continue to develop my transferable wealth - freelance writing, research and project consultation. I figure I can always get a job outside of academia if all else fails to fit in the years to come. I am also aware of my age and a shrinking willingness to waste time on what could be a hopeless cause. But I won't know until I try and will have to trust my judgement as each stage. That being said, people do go on to tenured positions and sometimes you just need to decide whether you are going to damn the torpedoes (naysayers) and go for it.

While I was thinking about this process and being conflicted - I'm really not into being poor again - I realized I might find myself with an acceptance in hand and the realization that the journey was more important than the destination. That did not happen. I am thrilled and will attend.

[DespSeekPhd]

Can I point out that your reduction in income may not matter as much as you think, depending on the cost of living for wherever you're going? I live in Chicago now, which is unbelievable expensive (although NY is far worse). We're moving to Kentucky, which is cheap and nice. So ultimately, we can live off far less and have literally no reduction in our creature comforts. Check out housing prices in your area, and that will give you a good indication of how much the salary decrease will affect you. And don't assume your husband will make far less - did youcheck? Because for an experienced teacher, $50K is the norm in most areas, or close enough to it for the cost of living. Heck, I only taught 5 years and was making that much in Chicago.

[History_Nerd]

Can I point out that your reduction in income may not matter as much as you think, depending on the cost of living for wherever you're going? I live in Chicago now, which is unbelievable expensive (although NY is far worse). We're moving to Kentucky, which is cheap and nice. So ultimately, we can live off far less and have literally no reduction in our creature comforts. Check out housing prices in your area, and that will give you a good indication of how much the salary decrease will affect you. And don't assume your husband will make far less - did youcheck? Because for an experienced teacher, $50K is the norm in most areas, or close enough to it for the cost of living. Heck, I only taught 5 years and was making that much in Chicago.

Should be the same deal for me as I move from Colorado to California - ohhh, wait, no nevermind.

Good points to think about though. When I lived in western Minnesota - in the middle of nowhere - I was paying $125 a month in rent for a house with two other guys. $125!!! Gesh.

[Guest seriously rethinking]

Hello again,

A week has passed and I am really close to withdrawing my enrollment at my PhD school. I have read so many articles about the crappy job market for humanities PhDs and I don't know that I want to do all that work (4-5 years of really intense studying + teaching) only to come out on the other end and be an adjunct or teach at a really random school in a random location. I'm just not into taking that kind of risk because I think it will make me bitter about all the sacrifice it took to get the PhD.

Aside from reading articles, I did get in touch with my undergraduate mentor and asked her opinion. She agreed that the job market has been really bad for the last 8 years or so and ironically at the end of her email asked if I knew anyone who could teach one course at my alma mater because the college is making cutbacks and they need a really good adjunct. How illustrative is that?

I have emailed my school and told them I need to discuss some stuff with them tomorrow. Initially I was just going to discuss this issue and get their opinion before making a decision, but I am almost ready to just say "sorry, I'm not coming. Hope it's not too late to find an alternate candidate".

This past week has been really hard for me and I never dreamed I would back out of doing a PhD, especially after how hard it was to get in. (I applied to 10 schools, got waitlisted at 2 and then got into just this 1). I feel sad that I am sort of turning my back on educational advancement, of which I am a major proponent, but it does seem like the university system is failing us. My brother has a friend who is doing his PhD in biology at a top school and he says it's a little better in the sciences, but not much.

If anyone has any thoughts, please share them. Also, if anyone wants links to the articles that helped me come to this realization, let me know and I'll post them. Not to shatter your dreams or anything, just to give you a better picture of the reality.

[philosophia]

Don't forget that you can always enroll and if you leave with a masters after a year or two. If your main motivation to not attend graduate school is the job market, this might be a nice option -- you can see how strongly you feel about it at that point, and go from there without spending 5+ years to end up without a (decent) job. You might even be able to find some jobs out of the academy that build on your area for which your masters would be useful (for example, in publishing or something) and would have the option of teaching at a community college on the side if you enjoy teaching. Personally, if I was in your position I would worry about the regret that comes with not at least giving it a shot.

[Guest seriously rethinking]

philosophia:

Thanks for the thought but I already have a Masters from a top school. So I can already be an adjunct!

Any other thoughts to my previous post are very welcome!

[Guest Cridamour]

I think it's more important to study what you're interested in than to follow job market indications. The job market changes over the years and the situation might be different by the time you're back on it after getting a PhD. When people see stats of a lack of people in this or that profession, a lot of students enter that field, meaning an overflow when they all graduate. This happens all the time. I guess that if you're tied to a specific area, than yes, you might have difficulty finding a good academic position in the humanities, but if you're not, you can map out a fabulous career. In many European countries, access to academic posts is not all that hard, even for fresh PhDs with not much experience. You teach there for a couple of years, get some good publications, and if you're set on moving back to the US to settle down there, I bet you'll find positions opening for someone with some international experience. Yes, more and more people are getting PhDs, which means that "just" a PhD will not grant you access to tenure, but you need to add things to that, such as: a postdoc research project, a great dissertation, publications, a degree from a high-ranked university, international experience, etc. You do not need all of these to stand out, just one or so. If you see this as a struggle rather than an exciting challenge, a PhD is probably not the thing for you, and you'll most likely end up unhappy.

Just giving you some more food for thought!

Good luck with your decision! It's an important one, but it won't make or break your life.

[Guest seriously rethinking]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for your support and input. Just wanted to let you know that I did withdraw today. I called them yesterday to discuss and got a flurry of phone calls from various profs. I made it final today.

If anyone has questions about my decision or whatever, I'm more than happy to answer them (not that I'm some kind of expert), but anyway, just to say that I'm not going to write down the whole experience here unless someone actually wants to read about it and what happened.

Best to all of you.

[Panda77]

Hey rethinking,

I’m really sorry to hear that. Personally, I would have postponed this decision till the end of your first year in grad school; by that time you would have had a much better idea of the program, the location of the university, and how well you were able to cope with being away from your close relatives. I don’t know, my opinion is that a year goes by really quickly and probably would have allowed you to know for sure and don’t second guess your decision in the future. Anyhow, that’s just my idea of course and I do respect your decision and really hope it was the best one for you. Btw, if you feel like telling us your story and what brought you to change your mind I would be more than happy to read it.

All the best.

[forensic]

i am in the same boat. I am considering withdrawing from a MS program in Counseling Psych. I am very anxious about taking out 100k for grad school on top of the 50 i owe for undergrad. i applied for some assitantships, if i do not get any i am probably going to withdraw and seek a full time job in september. (i am working on my current job til it ends august 20).

Any thoughts, words of encouragement?