Very limited research experience... does this disqualify me for grad programs?

[00o0ooo]

Hi!

 

I admit, although I thought about going to grad school in my freshman year, I never realized the importance of research experience until almost the end of my sophomore year. I applied to a couple of REUs that summer, but got all rejected (most likely due to limited experience and/or international student status...?).

 

Last semester, I worked in a professor's lab doing organic synthesis. I spent the subsequent summer working in another lab on RNA virology.

 

So this is basically what I have so far and what will have until my application deadline, which is in like 2 months. I do, however, have well-defined research interest in grad school, which is organic synthesis/medicinal chemistry/chemical biology, as mentioned in my other thread. I am getting increasingly worried and desperate about my lack of research experience, which I know is one of the deciding factors in grad school admission. Is there still any hope for me? My gap is 3.75 and 161 verbal 164 quantitative on the GRE. I know the scores are not bad (hopefully) but neither are everyone else's. So is it possible for someone with limited experience to get into a PhD program? Does anyone have a program recommended for an applicant like me?

 

Thank you all!!

[ghostar]

I admit, although I thought about going to grad school in my freshman year, I never realized the importance of research experience until almost the end of my sophomore year. 

 

Grad school is all research. How could you have been sure about wanting to go to grad school without understanding the importance of research experience? This leads me to question your motivation & preparedness for grad school. 

Like you said, your research experience is very limited. It's very hard to accomplish much in a single semester, much less in organic synthesis, especially if you're starting out fresh and taking time to learn all the techniques. Did you have prior experience doing organic synthesis research? What exactly did you accomplish in the two labs that you worked in? 

 

Having a well-defined research interest for grad school does nothing to help your application. Anyone can go ahead and say in the personal statement that "I have a very strong interest in <insert topic>." What matters more is the evidence for your stated interest, and this is why previous research experience is so important. Undergraduate research experiences help the applicant realize whether or not he/she enjoys research in the first place, and if so, they help inform his/her future research interests. Given your research background, I would be hardly convinced by your reasons for wanting to attend grad school (i.e. something besides "there's nothing else for me to do") and being interested in the specific fields you mentioned. 

 

Another thing is letters of recommendation. LORs are extremely important in grad school applications. A student who worked few years in a single lab will have a much stronger LOR than a student who only dipped their feet into the project, and you'll be competing with other students who have spent multiple years on each of their multiple projects, FYI. 

[Vene]

Grad school is all research. How could you have been sure about wanting to go to grad school without understanding the importance of research experience? This leads me to question your motivation & preparedness for grad school.

Are you serious? As a college freshman you expect them to know the ins and out of a highly esoteric aspect of life? 18 year olds are totally known for their worldliness and wisdom. Just how many freshman do you think realize that their professors do research instead of just teaching? For that matter, how many adults realize that professors do research and do a lot more than teaching?

I don't think it's that bad, OP, just talk about it as a positive experience and how now that you've had a taste for research you very much want to further your education. Also, are you currently in a lab, because that'll give you even more experience by the time that you can start graduate school.

[00o0ooo]

Thank you guys. I really appreciate your thoughts.

 

I forgot to mention that I have been chemistry TA for 1 year (1 semester introductory chemistry, 1 semester organic). Will this make a perhaps small difference?

[Vene]

I think that's a nice thing to have, but it won't make or break your application. My advice is to get into another lab if you not currently in one so you can say you'll have additional experience by the time you start graduate school and to make sure your LORs are solid.

 

Personally, I think you have a pretty solid application. You may not get into a top 10 school, but I think you can get into a good one and can certainly get into a PhD program.

[00o0ooo]

I think that's a nice thing to have, but it won't make or break your application. My advice is to get into another lab if you not currently in one so you can say you'll have additional experience by the time you start graduate school and to make sure your LORs are solid.

 

Personally, I think you have a pretty solid application. You may not get into a top 10 school, but I think you can get into a good one and can certainly get into a PhD program.

Thanks Vene! I never aimed to go to a top school, and I have never been the person who cares a lot about ranking (though I do not imply it's bad to do so). I will have another semester's of organic synthesis experience, and thanks I will make sure that I mention this in my SOP.

 

I do have one question that has been lingering, when you guys say top 10 or 20 or whatever, which ranking are you talking about? US News chemistry grad programs? Many well-known and reputable schools do not have stellar chemistry programs according to this ranking, such as Tufts, NYU, Dartmouth etc. Could I apply to these programs? Or I am better off applying to much less well known schools?

[ghostar]

Are you serious? As a college freshman you expect them to know the ins and out of a highly esoteric aspect of life? 

My apologies, part of the mistake was in my misunderstanding of OP's post. Perhaps I should re-phrase the question this way: If you considered grad school as a future option in your freshman year, why didn't you seek out research experience much earlier? What made you consider grad school if not the research experience? 

 

Just how many freshman do you think realize that their professors do research instead of just teaching? For that matter, how many adults realize that professors do research and do a lot more than teaching?

Like, everyone? At least everyone who is interested in studying science. This is not an unreasonable expectation for freshmen planning to major in the sciences. Even most high school students know this. 

 

OP, my recommendation for you would be to stay in your current RNA virology lab and continue working on your project. Do you enjoy what you're currently doing? Do you have any ideas for future experiments you would like to try? If so, I would strongly recommend that you speak with your advisor to discuss future research directions and any opportunity for independently-proposed research. This experience will be highly valuable in grad school. I'm sure he/she will appreciate your taking initiative and be open to ideas, too, or I hope so. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by ghostar

[00o0ooo]

My apologies, part of the mistake was in my misunderstanding of OP's post. Perhaps I should re-phrase the question this way: If you considered grad school as a future option in your freshman year, why didn't you seek out research experience much earlier? What made you consider grad school if not the research experience? 

 

Like, everyone? At least everyone who is interested in studying science. This is not an unreasonable expectation for freshmen planning to major in the sciences. Even most high school students know this. 

 

OP, my recommendation for you would be to stay in your current RNA virology lab and continue working on your project. Do you enjoy what you're currently doing? Do you have any ideas for future experiments you would like to try? If so, I would strongly recommend that you speak with your advisor to discuss future research directions and any opportunity for independently-proposed research. This experience will be highly valuable in grad school. I'm sure he/she will appreciate your taking initiative and be open to ideas, too, or I hope so. 

Thank you for your ideas! To answer your question, I enjoyed what I have been learning throughout my 1st and 2nd year in college and wanted to go on to further education beyond college. Yes, I agree with you, this sounds superficial. But this is honestly what I thought, I really enjoyed science and being in lab. I just did not realize that grad school emphasizes research more than anything else. And as I said, I admit that I was immature on this. While I don't mean to not concede my mistake, I want to let you know that my school is a small college and I really did my best finding research opportunity after I realize its importance, but many professors are simply unavailable because there are SO few of them, and other professors do research in subjects I was not interested in, like pchem.

 

Unfortunately, my summer research advisor is no longer accepting students since he is preparing to go abroad. Besides, molecular biology is not something I'm really into, but I do believe some relevant experience is helpful. I will go back to the organic synthesis lab next semester. Although it'll be my last semester in college, this is better than nothing.

 

I want you to know that I have two poster presentations, one at my school and the other at another university. I also have one year of TA experience, do you think these will help? Thanks.

[Cookie]

Limited research experience doesnt outright disqualify you. How much you learnt in the lab though is more important than how long you have been there. I know some students in my undergrad school spent most of their "research experience" petting rats' heads (neuroscience lab). Polish everything else in your application while you gain more experience. Read papers and establish the directions that most interest you, so that your SOP sounds more convincing. TA experience doesnt really help much, but its good to have. But GO AHEAD AND APPLY! 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Cookie

[ghostar]

I see. I understand the problem of finding research opportunities at SLACs because I go to one myself. Like Cookie said, try to explain very clearly in your SOP what you have learned from your experiences in the molecular biology & organic synthesis labs, and how they inform your research interests for the future. Why are you interested in continuing organic synthesis? How can your research experience in molecular biology be helpful for your graduate research? These are questions that I would be curious about given your story and would be good to keep in mind as you work on your SOP. The TA and presentation experiences are helpful too. Definitely mention them, but don't belabor them too much. 

 

I do have one question that has been lingering, when you guys say top 10 or 20 or whatever, which ranking are you talking about? US News chemistry grad programs? Many well-known and reputable schools do not have stellar chemistry programs according to this ranking, such as Tufts, NYU, Dartmouth etc. Could I apply to these programs? Or I am better off applying to much less well known schools?

When looking for graduate programs, I'd strongly recommend looking at where the PIs doing interesting research are, as opposed to the school name & program ranking. I've met professors who turned down offers from various top 10 schools to go to University of Kansas just to work for Dale Boger, for example, and this worked out well for their careers. Try to find PIs who are researching topics that you find interesting, look in the current literature and see what research catches your attention. 

. 

[Vene]

I can say that I went to a regional state university and there were actually few opportunities for research and most people didn't do any. Now that I'm at a large research university I see the majority of science undergrads are active in research in some manner. But, I'm willing to bet most people don't do to the research universities as there are far more liberal arts colleges and regional state universities than research oriented schools.

 

Also, I come from a rural community where there were no opportunities for research; there was a hospital and a community college. People there did not know that professors were researchers, professors were thought of as being teachers. I think it is unfair to assume that people come from backgrounds where they are familiar with academia and higher education and expected potential grad students to know how the system works from the beginning of college will prevent those with certain socioeconomic backgrounds from obtaining advanced education. This is already seen at the bachelors level where people from poorer communities will avoid applying to college due to not knowing about the financial aid available and when they do apply will seek out universities with weaker reputations thinking that they aren't good enough for big name institutions.

[ghostar]

I think it is unfair to assume that people come from backgrounds where they are familiar with academia and higher education and expected potential grad students to know how the system works from the beginning of college will prevent those with certain socioeconomic backgrounds from obtaining advanced education. This is already seen at the bachelors level where people from poorer communities will avoid applying to college due to not knowing about the financial aid available and when they do apply will seek out universities with weaker reputations thinking that they aren't good enough for big name institutions.

Unfair for students coming from the background that you describe, yes, but not unreasonable from the graduate programs' perspective. If students are considering grad school as an option but are not familiar with the system, I'd say it's the job of their professors to inform them and help them find opportunities that will prepare them for grad school. On the flip side, students should take the initiative to discuss their academic interests and future directions with their professors. You're comparing apples to oranges by comparing grad school to college. Colleges is more similar to secondary education in that it consists mostly of going to classes and doing some extracurricular activities. Grad school is different. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by ghostar

[geographyrocks]

I can say that I went to a regional state university and there were actually few opportunities for research and most people didn't do any. Now that I'm at a large research university I see the majority of science undergrads are active in research in some manner. But, I'm willing to bet most people don't do to the research universities as there are far more liberal arts colleges and regional state universities than research oriented schools.

 

Also, I come from a rural community where there were no opportunities for research; there was a hospital and a community college. People there did not know that professors were researchers, professors were thought of as being teachers. I think it is unfair to assume that people come from backgrounds where they are familiar with academia and higher education and expected potential grad students to know how the system works from the beginning of college will prevent those with certain socioeconomic backgrounds from obtaining advanced education. This is already seen at the bachelors level where people from poorer communities will avoid applying to college due to not knowing about the financial aid available and when they do apply will seek out universities with weaker reputations thinking that they aren't good enough for big name institutions.

My adviser flat out said that admission committees don't expect every student to have the same research experience because opportunities are different at every school. I, like you, came from a rural school with very few research opportunities. 

 

 

Unfair for students coming from the background that you describe, yes, but not unreasonable from the graduate programs' perspective. If students are considering grad school as an option but are not familiar with the system, I'd say it's the job of their professors to inform them and help them find opportunities that will prepare them for grad school. On the flip side, students should take the initiative to discuss their academic interests and future directions with their professors. You're comparing apples to oranges by comparing grad school to college. Colleges is more similar to secondary education in that it consists mostly of going to classes and doing some extracurricular activities. Grad school is different.

This is completely off.  It may be the job of the professors to help their students, but a lot of professors haven't attended grad school in decades.  Most of my undergrad professors had no idea what the process was for graduate school.  I have no idea where you are getting these ideas, but I think you are naive to how many people out there didn't have a "perfect" set up for graduate school.  Hell, I went to community college first to save on money.  I'm sure that alone would mark me as a big fat NO to be accepted into graduate school according to your standards.  Luckily, admission committees are more aware of how real life works and take way more into consideration than you are. 

 

I would have commented on this thread, but I don't want interested students seeing this post and thinking that they have no shot at graduate school simply because their experience doesn't conform to the textbook experience you think people should have. 

 

 

Last semester, I worked in a professor's lab doing organic synthesis. I spent the subsequent summer working in another lab on RNA virology.

 

Most admissions committees want to see that you are capable of research.  You are attempting to gain that research experience which is a good thing.  Definitely play up what you learned in the labs when writing your SOP.  You could even add the REUs that you didn't get into as "experieince builders" and how that failure increased your determination.  Have you written anything?  Conferences?  Poster presentations?  It's not too late to submit abstracts for local events (even if it's just at your school). 

Your stats are great, by the way.

 

To add an anecdote, I had 1 summer of research and my senior thesis (which I guess technically counts as an additional year of research).  And now I'm working with an amazing adviser in a wonderful department. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by geographyrocks

[ghostar]

This is completely off.  It may be the job of the professors to help their students, but a lot of professors haven't attended grad school in decades.  Most of my undergrad professors had no idea what the process was for graduate school.  I have no idea where you are getting these ideas, but I think you are naive to how many people out there didn't have a "perfect" set up for graduate school.  Hell, I went to community college first to save on money.  I'm sure that alone would mark me as a big fat NO to be accepted into graduate school according to your standards.  Luckily, admission committees are more aware of how real life works and take way more into consideration than you are. 

It may be a long time since the professors themselves went through the grad school process, but still, I'd hope that they are way more familiar with the process than the students are. If not, I hope they know younger professors who are in better positions to help. My belief that students should take initiative to seek out help still stands. 

 

 Hell, I went to community college first to save on money.  I'm sure that alone would mark me as a big fat NO to be accepted into graduate school according to your standards.  Luckily, admission committees are more aware of how real life works and take way more into consideration than you are. 

Well, I did too, so let's hope admission committees don't reject me for having spent two years of my undergrad at a CC! Going to CC doesn't prevent you from doing research, however. Again, talk to your professors. They may not have research labs themselves, but they definitely know other faculty at bigger institutions who might be willing to take in a student of their close friends. This is how I got my first research opportunity. I hope this post encourages, rather than discourage, those students lacking access to research opportunities at their own institutions to talk to their professors about anything possible. 

[payel1986]

I know one friend of mine from India, who had only 1-2 months of research experience and that is from an university not too-renowned. He had a good percentage of marks in BS and MS, however, not that steller. His GRE was ~1380 and he did his graduation from one of the top research labs in Ohio State. So, with your fascinating GRE score, and GPA, no need to get nervous. Only be sure to add 2-3 safe schools in your application. Also, make a good package of LOR and SOP. Whatever experience you have gained so far, be sure to extract all of it in the SOP. All d best!

Edited October 22, 2014 by payel1986

[Vene]

You're comparing apples to oranges by comparing grad school to college. Colleges is more similar to secondary education in that it consists mostly of going to classes and doing some extracurricular activities. Grad school is different. 

I don't think I am, even though I realize the way they are done is very different, the perception is that graduate school is just an extension of an undergraduate education. For example, people are routinely shocked when I tell them that I'm being paid to go to school. The idea that you have to pay to get an advanced degree is enough to ensure that people of low means won't even look into graduate school as they believe the financial burden is too high.

 

 

My adviser flat out said that admission committees don't expect every student to have the same research experience because opportunities are different at every school. I, like you, came from a rural school with very few research opportunities. 

I think that this is very helpful and the way that it should be done. I think it would also be nice if graduate schools did more to make it clear that they provide financial support so that stellar students from less privileged backgrounds will realize graduate education is an option.

 

Ultimately, I think that seeking out those from lower status helps everyone. The benefits for the students are obvious and it means that the scholars being trained really are the best instead of those with the best connections.

[geographyrocks]

It may be a long time since the professors themselves went through the grad school process, but still, I'd hope that they are way more familiar with the process than the students are. If not, I hope they know younger professors who are in better positions to help. My belief that students should take initiative to seek out help still stands. 

You would think so, but my undergrad department was amazingly unhelpful.  I don't know how many departments are like that.  For the sake of others, I'm hoping very few.  I actually had a professor tell me that I shouldn't apply to PhD programs because I wasn't male or a genius. 

 

 

Well, I did too, so let's hope admission committees don't reject me for having spent two years of my undergrad at a CC! Going to CC doesn't prevent you from doing research, however. Again, talk to your professors. They may not have research labs themselves, but they definitely know other faculty at bigger institutions who might be willing to take in a student of their close friends. This is how I got my first research opportunity. I hope this post encourages, rather than discourage, those students lacking access to research opportunities at their own institutions to talk to their professors about anything possible.

I think I was really misreading tone earlier (damn you written words!).  I think the problem of not knowing about opportunities generally stems from being a first generation college student.  I think ego also plays a role if you don't ask because you're afraid of looking like you don't know anything. 

I think I won the crap basket of schools because the community college I went to didn't even know how to advise student who were planning on transferring to a 4 year let alone communicate research opportunities.  The first 3 classes I was advised to take (meaning that I had to take the classes that the adviser recommended) were all non-transferable courses.  I really wish I hadn't relied on the adviser and actively argued for different courses.  I was completely unaware that I was being screwed.  Basically, nothing was communicated and there was no way to "discover it on your own" because the CC website didn't even have the necessary information.  So even though I specifically stated that I would be transferring after my AS, not one single professor, adviser, or representative bothered to give me the necessary information. 

So I guess what I'm trying to say that while it is the student's responsibility to seek out opportunities, it's very difficult to do so when you don't know that is what you should be doing.  Heh...I think I just created an infinite loop sentence.  Writing grant proposals is making me wacky.

[00o0ooo]

Hey guys. I cannot thank you enough for all your advice and encouragement! I will be sure to follow your advice and work hard on my application!