Notre Dame Early Christian Studies vs. MTS

[nrunyan]

I'm going into my final year as an undergraduate for degrees in History and Classical Studies and I'm considering applying to Notre Dame for a master's degree. There are two programs that interest me- the MA in Early Christian Studies (through their Classics dept.) and the Master of Theological Studies (MTS), in which case I would choose their 'History of Christianity' option.

Both programs involve Latin and Greek and French and German, but I feel like the Early Christian Studies program has more rigorous ancient language requirements, which I suppose is appropriate for a Classics program. I'm not sure if I want to go onto to a PhD program, so I would like for my MA to be as rigorous and scholarly as possible (regarding languages, especially) in order to market myself as a potential high school teacher of history, Latin, or (if I were at a private school) religion/theology- even though I've been doing quite a bit of undergraduate work on the history of Christianity, I'm starting to become more and more interested in the history of the big, world religions.... I'm studying Hindi right now and would like to branch out into Sanskrit someday.

So, what program should I go for if I want to have rigorous training in ancient languages and the history of religion(s) but I'm not dead-set on going onto a PhD? And does anyone know of similar MA-level programs I should consider that would help me transition into a PhD program if I finally decided to take the academic plunge? Should I be considering divinity schools?

Thanks for reading!

[lovethequestions]

The language thing cuts both ways--it makes you very marketable in terms of both Ph.D applications and teaching applications. But for every language course you take, that's a theology course you didn't take. My feeling about the matter is that if you don't genuinely like learning and studying languages you won't really be happy either teaching them to high schoolers or in a Ph.D program that strongly emphasizes an ancient language component.

I don't know much about the ECS program at ND, other than that its students seem to have a wider variety of interests than you find within other master's concentrations around here. You might also consider the Biblical Studies concentration if you're serious about doing the languages and if your focus is more historical than theological. You'll end up with Greek and Hebrew rather than Latin, but you'll REALLY know the Greek and Hebrew. The thing to remember about the MTS program at ND is that the courses you take are pretty rigorously structured, with a large component of the degree going to "core curriculum" type stuff. That can be good or bad, depending on your attitude/interests.

Also: if you're seriously interested in world religions, and particularly if you'd like to focus on their history rather than interfaith discussion, Notre Dame is not a good place to be. It's incredibly strong in the Second Temple, New Testament, History of Christianity (particularly intellectual history), etc., but it's not a religious studies program and wouldn't have the resources to let you begin something like Sanskrit. (That being said, people here are very very good about letting students follow their own interests when it comes to directed readings classes, etc.)

[LateAntique]

I'm going into my final year as an undergraduate for degrees in History and Classical Studies and I'm considering applying to Notre Dame for a master's degree. There are two programs that interest me- the MA in Early Christian Studies (through their Classics dept.) and the Master of Theological Studies (MTS), in which case I would choose their 'History of Christianity' option.

Both programs involve Latin and Greek and French and German, but I feel like the Early Christian Studies program has more rigorous ancient language requirements, which I suppose is appropriate for a Classics program. I'm not sure if I want to go onto to a PhD program, so I would like for my MA to be as rigorous and scholarly as possible (regarding languages, especially) in order to market myself as a potential high school teacher of history, Latin, or (if I were at a private school) religion/theology- even though I've been doing quite a bit of undergraduate work on the history of Christianity, I'm starting to become more and more interested in the history of the big, world religions.... I'm studying Hindi right now and would like to branch out into Sanskrit someday.

So, what program should I go for if I want to have rigorous training in ancient languages and the history of religion(s) but I'm not dead-set on going onto a PhD? And does anyone know of similar MA-level programs I should consider that would help me transition into a PhD program if I finally decided to take the academic plunge? Should I be considering divinity schools?

Thanks for reading!

I'm applying to the MA program, so I suggest you apply to the MTS so I won't have as much competition.

In all seriousness, I suggest contacting the ECS program. Depending upon your previous language preparation, you may go into the MTS or MA.

[T Pain]

I'm applying to the MA program, so I suggest you apply to the MTS so I won't have as much competition.

In all seriousness, I suggest contacting the ECS program. Depending upon your previous language preparation, you may go into the MTS or MA.

As an alum of this program, I can confidently say it is excellent, and that I am REALLY glad I took the two extra years after my first master's degree to do it. The students involved are highly competent with ancient languages and share a wide array of interests surrounding the study of late antique literature - from theology and philosophy to rhetoric, politics, and ethics. If you're interested in reading anything from Plato to Proclus, from Irenaeus to Cyril, this is the place and the program for you. Course offerings at the doctoral level in theology, history, medieval studies, philosophy, and more are open to those interested and to those who have the skills to work in such courses. Check out the 'alum' page - the placement record speaks for itself.

I think there's no question: if you want to study anything humanistic really--especially theology--this program can and will get you where you want to be.

[Also, this sort of logic is really bizarre: "But for every language course you take, that's a theology course you didn't take." But for every "theology" course you take before having learned how to read stuff in the ancient languages, the more ignorant you'll be with respect to scholars in the field of . . . theology!]

Edited October 30, 2009 by T Pain

[Philologus]

I'm going into my final year as an undergraduate for degrees in History and Classical Studies and I'm considering applying to Notre Dame for a master's degree. There are two programs that interest me- the MA in Early Christian Studies (through their Classics dept.) and the Master of Theological Studies (MTS), in which case I would choose their 'History of Christianity' option.

Both programs involve Latin and Greek and French and German, but I feel like the Early Christian Studies program has more rigorous ancient language requirements, which I suppose is appropriate for a Classics program. I'm not sure if I want to go onto to a PhD program, so I would like for my MA to be as rigorous and scholarly as possible (regarding languages, especially) in order to market myself as a potential high school teacher of history, Latin, or (if I were at a private school) religion/theology- even though I've been doing quite a bit of undergraduate work on the history of Christianity, I'm starting to become more and more interested in the history of the big, world religions.... I'm studying Hindi right now and would like to branch out into Sanskrit someday.

So, what program should I go for if I want to have rigorous training in ancient languages and the history of religion(s) but I'm not dead-set on going onto a PhD? And does anyone know of similar MA-level programs I should consider that would help me transition into a PhD program if I finally decided to take the academic plunge? Should I be considering divinity schools?

Thanks for reading!

Hi nrunyan,

I am currently in my first year of the ECS program and would be happy to talk to you more about it if you'd like to send me a private message.

To respond to your question generally: T Pain is absolutely right. This program is excellent. It provides countless opportunities for intellectual development in any number of areas. I am coming from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where I earned a B.A. in Classics and German. I wanted a program with the philological emphases of a Classics department that would allow me to study ancient Christian as well as "pagan" literature, i.e. the emergence of Christianity within its greco-roman intellectual and literary context. ECS is unique in that it allows me to do just that. This semester I took a Christian Latin survey (everything from the Vulgata and Vetus Latina to Jerome, Ambrose and Augustine to Lactantius and Prudentius), a course on the early philosophical (Cassiciacum) dialogues of Augustine (in Latin), an introduction to Early Christianity (in translation) and a directed reading with one of the philosophy professors which covered Plato's Symposium (in Greek). I also was a TA for the Classics department's Greek literature survey. Next semester I am taking a course on editing Latin manuscripts and constructing critical editions, a course on Greek popular literature, a course on John Chrysostom, Intensive French, and am also slated to TA Greek and Roman mythology.

With your background in Classics and History, I have no doubt that this program would be absolutely perfect for you, and that, consequently, it would suit you better than the MTS. Our program is small and close-knit. We are, I think, recognized as the group that "does" languages, though the background of each student obviously varies. As I said, send me a message if you want to talk more and I'll give you my e-mail address. If you're able to find time to visit, I'd be happy to show you around and introduce you to some of the other students.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Philologus

[thekidisalright]

I graduated from the MTS (History of Christianity) in '09 and am now teaching religion and philosophy at a prep school.

Both programs are incredibly rigorous and it would be ridiculous to imply that one was for the real scholars and one for softies. They differ greatly though in their approach, even if you are someone interested in Early Christianity. Keep in mind that in the MTS you will be taking courses in moral and systematic theology, and taking all of your courses with students interested in everything from von Balthazar to feminist Biblical hermeneutics to Trinitarian theology to Jewish-Christian dialogue. Even the historical courses will be thoroughly theological.

To put it briefly, you can't get a rigorous education in languages, history, and theology in two years. Something will have to go. The ECS degree is not a theology degree, nor is the MTS-HC a history degree. I know in the courses that we shared together we theologians thought that the ECSers lacked training in method and I'm sure they thought we paid absolutely no attention to historical and literary context or original language. This gap is lamentable though probably not something that can be avoided given only 2 years to take courses.

You will not have room in HC to do anything more than 2 semesters of Latin in the school year (though I took an additional intense semester of Latin and a French class in the summer). This is pretty sufficient for going on to PhD programs in Theology, but obviously not for classics. On the other hand, the ECS program would likely not prepare you to teach religion/theology at a high school level as high school theology courses are usually things like Introduction to Systematic Theology, Sacraments, or Ethics. It would certainly prepare you for Latin and History.

Hope this helps!

ES

[T Pain]

I graduated from the MTS (History of Christianity) in '09 and am now teaching religion and philosophy at a prep school.

Both programs are incredibly rigorous and it would be ridiculous to imply that one was for the real scholars and one for softies. They differ greatly though in their approach, even if you are someone interested in Early Christianity. Keep in mind that in the MTS you will be taking courses in moral and systematic theology, and taking all of your courses with students interested in everything from von Balthazar to feminist Biblical hermeneutics to Trinitarian theology to Jewish-Christian dialogue. Even the historical courses will be thoroughly theological.

To put it briefly, you can't get a rigorous education in languages, history, and theology in two years. Something will have to go. The ECS degree is not a theology degree, nor is the MTS-HC a history degree. I know in the courses that we shared together we theologians thought that the ECSers lacked training in method and I'm sure they thought we paid absolutely no attention to historical and literary context or original language. This gap is lamentable though probably not something that can be avoided given only 2 years to take courses.

You will not have room in HC to do anything more than 2 semesters of Latin in the school year (though I took an additional intense semester of Latin and a French class in the summer). This is pretty sufficient for going on to PhD programs in Theology, but obviously not for classics. On the other hand, the ECS program would likely not prepare you to teach religion/theology at a high school level as high school theology courses are usually things like Introduction to Systematic Theology, Sacraments, or Ethics. It would certainly prepare you for Latin and History.

Hope this helps!

ES

On the other hand, the ECS program would likely not prepare you to teach religion/theology at a high school level as high school theology courses are usually things like Introduction to Systematic Theology, Sacraments, or Ethics. It would certainly prepare you for Latin and History.

Again: check the alumni page ( http://www.nd.edu/~ecs/alumni.html ), which speaks for itself. Three 2009 graduates were placed in theology doctoral programs. Seems strange to say that someone who has been accepted to doctoral candidacy in theology at Notre Dame, Duke, or Marquette wouldn't be able to teach high school theology and/or philosophy, no? The nature of preparation in this program has to do with your own interests, not the program's constraints, which are really flexible. After completion of this degree, depending on which area of literature in antiquity you focus on, these are your possibilities: If you want to do Latin or Greek classics, you can. If you want to do ancient philosophy, you can. If you want to do historical theology (patristic or medieval), you can. Hell, if you want to do political science, you CAN. Why? Because all of the topics that govern these fields are dealt with in antiquity, and they are dealt with in detail and in influential ways. Nothing is stopping you from conversing with theologians about theological problems in any case. And especially if you already had a master's degree in theology, which many ECS students indeed already do before they take up study at ND, you would already have been initiated into those mysterious rites of "theological method," and so you would indeed know how to converse competently with systematicians about "systematic theology." So again, I say: the ECS program is a phenomenal option for folks interested in doing rigorous theology. If you think you have the linguistic competence to go for it, you should. If you lack basic theological competence and ultimately want to do theological work, the MTS, an MDiv, or an MA in philosophy, is probably a better choice.

Edited April 13, 2010 by T Pain