"Breakdown of Programs by Specialties" PGR published in full

[ianfaircloud]

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown.asp

 

This was already published in pieces, but the page wasn't completely published until sometime in the last week (if I'm not mistaken).

[Matt Bauer]

Thanks for posting this. The correlation has been drawn between top 5, 10, and 15, as far as placement goes but my question is, what about the schools that are merely inserted by the advisory board? Schools like Baylor, who have placement but primarily to small liberal arts colleges are 'unranked' and yet they seem to be suggested every year. When a school like Baylor is suggested for so many areas, is it likely they will be on top 50 soon? 

[ianfaircloud]

Thanks for posting this. The correlation has been drawn between top 5, 10, and 15, as far as placement goes but my question is, what about the schools that are merely inserted by the advisory board? Schools like Baylor, who have placement but primarily to small liberal arts colleges are 'unranked' and yet they seem to be suggested every year. When a school like Baylor is suggested for so many areas, is it likely they will be on top 50 soon? 

I don't know the answer to this, but I know that Saint Louis University was inserted by the board on the Medieval and Religion lists in the 2011 PGR. Now it's Top-50 on the PGR generally.

 

I've heard vague things about Baylor investing more into its program. (Things like, it's "on the rise.") I vaguely remember that Baylor launched some kind of initiative a few years ago, and philosophy was supposed to be a core part of that initiative. Maybe someone from Baylor (or with more familiarity with Baylor) can clear this up for us. Baylor is an historically religious institution, and a quick glance at the faculty page reveals that the department is focused on philosophy of religion. More than half of the full-time faculty list philosophy of religion as an AOI. C. Stephen Evans and Jonathan Kvanvig are particularly strong, just from my vague memories of reading their work -- but these are philosophers who may not have especially broad appeal.  Evans, in particular, is a bit more narrowly-focused, if I recall correctly.

 

Edit: University of Oklahoma again gets on the philosophy of religion list because of Linda Zagzebski, who is influential at Oklahoma and very strong in philosophy of religion. I don't see Oklahoma moving into the PGR 50 without some additional hires, and I have no reason in particular to believe that it's a "rising" program. Still, for those with an interest in religion, I would imagine that Zagzebski would be a great person to work with.

Edited March 5, 2015 by ianfaircloud

[Glasperlenspieler]

Kvanvig will apparently be leaving Baylor in the near future and going to WUSTL: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2015/02/kvanvig-from-baylor-to-wash-ust-louis.html

[Matt Bauer]

On 3/4/2015 at 11:27 PM, ianfaircloud said:

I don't know the answer to this, but I know that Saint Louis University was inserted by the board on the Medieval and Religion lists in the 2011 PGR. Now it's Top-50 on the PGR generally.

 

I've heard vague things about Baylor investing more into its program. (Things like, it's "on the rise.") I vaguely remember that Baylor launched some kind of initiative a few years ago, and philosophy was supposed to be a core part of that initiative. Maybe someone from Baylor (or with more familiarity with Baylor) can clear this up for us. Baylor is an historically religious institution, and a quick glance at the faculty page reveals that the department is focused on philosophy of religion. More than half of the full-time faculty list philosophy of religion as an AOI. C. Stephen Evans and Jonathan Kvanvig are particularly strong, just from my vague memories of reading their work -- but these are philosophers who may not have especially broad appeal.  Evans, in particular, is a bit more narrowly-focused, if I recall correctly.

 

Edit: University of Oklahoma again gets on the philosophy of religion list because of Linda Zagzebski, who is influential at Oklahoma and very strong in philosophy of religion. I don't see Oklahoma moving into the PGR 50 without some additional hires, and I have no reason in particular to believe that it's a "rising" program. Still, for those with an interest in religion, I would imagine that Zagzebski would be a great person to work with.

 

Thanks for the insight. I agree their department is trending upwards and wouldn't be surprised to see it make top 50 in the next few years. Additionally, while they are losing Kvanvig to WUSTL, they have just announced the hire of John Haldane, analytic Thomist. I believe this will improve their programs standing significantly. 

 

On 3/5/2015 at 12:35 AM, DerPhilosoph said:

Kvanvig will apparently be leaving Baylor in the near future:http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2015/02/kvanvig-from-baylor-to-wash-ust-louis.html

 

Baylor is losing Kvanvig to WashU and Roberts is retiring. With these losses comes to hire of John Haldane. 

See PDF about the hire here: http://www.baylor.edu/philosophy/doc.php/240802.pdf

 

 

Baylor seems to be a good place for aspiring Thomists to study, specifically with Thomas Hibbs as affiliated faculty, Francis Beckwith, Alexander Pruss, and now John Haldane. Surprising since I have heard Baylor called the "Baptist Vatican". I hope to get off the waitlist there to study with all of these people. 

[jeremy_13]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but how should I weigh rankings in my area of interest VS overall rankings, when it comes to placement records? All else equal, would it be better for placement to take a school ranked below #30 in my AOI but above #15 overall, or below #30 overall and above #15 in my AOI?

Edited March 5, 2015 by marshmallowy

[philstudent1991]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but how should I weigh rankings in my area of interest VS overall rankings, when it comes to placement records? All else equal, would it be better for placement to take a school ranked below #30 in my AOI but above #15 overall, or below #30 overall and above #15 in my AOI?

Just my opinion, but here you go. Specialty rank, and working with a top name in a field even if it isn't at a broadly known program, is worth something. But all else equal, take the overall rank. Several reasons. For one, your advisor may leave, or pass away, or be hard to get along with. So, only apply to programs where there are several faculty you could work with. Second, I think people that want a job in philosophy after the phd need to be shooting for top 30. Obviously there are exceptions, but broadly speaking placement gets weaker after that. Third, and perhaps most important, is that having a specialty area is overrated for most jobs. Having an active and narrow research program is good if you want to work at a research school. But 90+% or whatever of schools are more focused on teaching, SLACs, smaller state schools, community colleges, etc. They don't care about your research as much. They'll want you to be able to teach philosophy generally. Maybe you'll teach Kant, maybe you'll teach the Greeks, maybe you'll teach Existentialism. Having a broader background in philosophy can be a highlight on a resume at these kinds of schools. So perhaps being an expert in a subfield is overrated, considering the reality of the job market, which is that you won't waltz into a TT job at a PGR school, probably no matter what, but especially not if you take your PhD at a school ranked outside the PGR T20 or maybe T30 (31). That might be more pessimistic than is warranted but I figure that's better than more optimistic than is warranted. So in summary my view is that if all else really is equal, take the top program over the weaker programs strong in your specialty. If nothing else, you may change interests once you get there. 

[LennyBound]

I think people that want a job in philosophy after the phd need to be shooting for top 30.

As mentioned elsewhere on the forums, be careful drawing a strong correlation between PGR rankings and placement. 

 

http://www.newappsblog.com/2014/07/job-placement-2011-2014-comparing-placement-rank-to-pgr-rank.html

 

"...the PGR aims to measure the collective reputation of a department's faculty, but faculty reputation does not necessarily predict the likelihood of placement by that department."

 

http://www.philosophynews.com/post/2013/10/02/Will-I-get-a-Job-Graduate-School-Philosophy-Placement-Records.aspx

 

"The Leiter Report at the Philosophical Gourmet... is extremely valuable in terms of knowing which departments rank best in this or that field of philosophy and which schools are best overall. However, it has very little to say about placement records."

Edited March 5, 2015 by LennyBound

[philstudent1991]

 

As mentioned elsewhere on the forums, be careful drawing a strong correlation between PGR rankings and placement. 

 

http://www.newappsblog.com/2014/07/job-placement-2011-2014-comparing-placement-rank-to-pgr-rank.html

 

"...the PGR aims to measure the collective reputation of a department's faculty, but faculty reputation does not necessarily predict the likelihood of placement by that department."

 

http://www.philosophynews.com/post/2013/10/02/Will-I-get-a-Job-Graduate-School-Philosophy-Placement-Records.aspx

 

"The Leiter Report at the Philosophical Gourmet... is extremely valuable in terms of knowing which departments rank best in this or that field of philosophy and which schools are best overall. However, it has very little to say about placement records."

 

Certainly there are unranked or lower ranked programs that place well, and highly ranked programs that do not. And the PGR does not take placement into account in its ranking whatsoever. But I think it's a distracting quibble from the main point, which is true, that highly PGR ranked programs in general place better than others. Sure there are exceptions, sure there are some schools that place well in a specialty area, etc. But in general, going to a highly regarded PGR school is the best way to increase your chances of desirable placement. I think prospective students need to understand that. 

[LennyBound]

I think it's a distracting quibble from the main point, which is true, that highly PGR ranked programs in general place better than others. Sure there are exceptions, sure there are some schools that place well in a specialty area, etc. But in general, going to a highly regarded PGR school is the best way to increase your chances of desirable placement. I think prospective students need to understand that. 

Fair enough. The question would be precisely how strong one thinks the correlation is between placement and PGR ranking. I don't have any poll numbers, but I think it is generally overemphasized.

http://www.philosophynews.com/post/2013/10/11/Graduate-School-Philosophy-Placement-The-Leiter-Report.aspx

[Establishment]

I've been told by professors to not even bother going to grad school outside of the top-20 if you want a job, given the competitiveness.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Establishment

[LennyBound]

I've been told by professors to not even bother going to grad school outside of the top-20 if you want a job, given the competitiveness.

How is that attitude justified given the actual evidence? 

[ianfaircloud]

I've been told by professors to not even bother going to grad school outside of the top-20 if you want a job, given the competitiveness.

 

Hyperbole, but I take it the point is that it's a very, very tough job market, even for people who take a PhD from the best programs. I think that's right, and I think the professor's point is well-taken.

 

I think LennyBound's point is also well-taken, that there are some 20+, 30+, and even some non-PGR programs (on the 30+ side, University of Pennsylvania comes to mind) that have placed well. And I think there are a few T20s that don't place quite as well. That makes sense, because typically PhD candidates attach themselves only to a few people in the program (not to the program at large) and only to one or two areas of interest (and not philosophy generally). It's not like you go to Penn and work with the entire department. You work with Samuel Freeman. And it's not like you work in the area of "philosophy generally."  You work in "political philosophy/Rawls."

 

There are at least three other reasons that the PGR rankings don't line up exactly with placement. (1) Maybe PhD candidates simply aren't thriving in the culture of a particular program, because the culture (or the climate) isn't great. I won't name programs, but I know of at least one T20 that has a very bad reputation for culture and climate. (2) PGR rankings display faculty quality, not student quality. Some programs aren't very good at selecting the best students possible. Finally, (3) institutional reputation and regional reputation are important factors in getting hired. From what I can tell, California schools, for example, tend to favor California-trained candidates.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that PGR isn't supposed to rank programs in terms of placement records. It's supposed to rank programs by faculty quality. Hence the older PGR actually included Tufts in the ranking, despite its having only an MA program.

 

[Establishment]

The attitude is justified in that for years and years there are hundreds of new PhDs. 50 PGR programs (doesn't cut close to the amount of programs there are), 5 students admitted each year (let's say, average might be higher), that's (ignoring attrition), 250 new PhD's a year. There aren't 250 new jobs each year in academia. And it's not just those 250 who are applying for those <250 jobs. There's the remainder of PhD's who from the previous year and the previous year and the previous yer and so on who are applying for those <250 jobs. Previous discussions online regarding this by professors on Leiter Reports and Philosophy Smoker have had many people believe that it is borderline immoral to encourage students today to pursue graduate study in philosophy.

 

Regarding the actual evidence, there's: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2015/02/pedigree-matters-and-prospective-students-are-entitled-to-know.htmlThere's your link, which recognizes that the PGR can explain, "a little over half of the placement." No one's expecting a 1:1 correlation. There's previous discussions regarding hiring practices, such that more and more work is expected of you in order to make up for attending a less prestigious program. That is, those from top-10 programs can get good hires without any publication history, whereas the further down out of the top-10 you fall, the more you have to prove yourself with a publication history (which you have to do while focusing on your own coursework and dissertation work at your PhD program).

 

Like Ian said, it's a bit hyperbolic, it's a bit reductionistic, but there are strong motivations behind the advice.