Looking for Evaluation - PhD or MS in Geophysics

[burgundywave]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm currently completing a civil engineering bachelor degree with a focus in geotechnical engineering at a top Canadian university. During the first 2.5 years of my undergrad, I was intending to pursue grad school studies in structural engineering for high seismicity zones. Turns out structural engineering is not my thing and what I really want to study is seismicity itself and not its effect on structures. 

 

Course-wise, I have taken 1 general geology class, 1 geomechanics class, 1 geotechnical engineering class and will try to integrate 1 geophysics class in my curriculum in my last semester. Studying engineering, I also have a strong background in math, physics and programming. 

 

I have two main questions:

 

(1) Considering that I do not have a BA in Geophysics, what are my chances of being admitted in a top university in this field?

 

(2) Should I be applying for a MS or directly for a PhD if a PhD is ultimately my goal? 

 

Here is my profile: 

 

Undergrad Institution: Top Canadian university 

Major(s): Civil Engineering (Specialization in geotechnical engineering)
Minor(s): Finance
GPA in Major: -
Overall GPA: 3.95
Position in Class: Top
Type of Student: Canadian female (French is my first language)

GRE Scores (revised/old version):
Q: 162
V:168
W: 4.5

(predicted scores) 

Research Experience: 

At university: 

- Summer research in seismic structural engineering with famous professor in this area

- Summer research in environmental geomechanics with famous professor in this area

- Summer and Fall research in geophysics/seismicity (this one is not certain yet) 

No publication 

 

Awards/Honors/Recognitions: (Within your school or outside?)

2 x NSERC-USRA awards (Canadian government undergrad research assistantships)

A 3-years scholarship that paid for my undergrad tuition
Dean's honour list

Pertinent Activities or Jobs: 

TA for an engineering economy class (3 semesters)

Applying to Where:

Stanford

UC Berkeley

UCLA

Caltech

MIT

Harvard
 

Any comments/advices/experiences would be really helpful!

 

Thank you!

[geographyrocks]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm currently completing a civil engineering bachelor degree with a focus in geotechnical engineering at a top Canadian university. During the first 2.5 years of my undergrad, I was intending to pursue grad school studies in structural engineering for high seismicity zones. Turns out structural engineering is not my thing and what I really want to study is seismicity itself and not its effect on structures. 

 

 

(1) Considering that I do not have a BA in Geophysics, what are my chances of being admitted in a top university in this field?

 

I have a question for you, are there professors who are doing research that you want to do at those top universities?  Your numbers are good enough, but what you really need to focus on now is fit. 

And if your main goal is a PhD, go for the PhD. 

[burgundywave]

I have a question for you, are there professors who are doing research that you want to do at those top universities?  Your numbers are good enough, but what you really need to focus on now is fit. 

And if your main goal is a PhD, go for the PhD. 

 

 

Hey there,

 

I have indeed looked at what the professors are doing at each university but the problem is that I haven't had any real research experience (or class for that matter) in geophysics yet (hopefully this will happen over the summer and after). Thus, my research interests are still very broad within geophysics and that is why I can't identify exactly which supervisors I would like to work with yet. The universities I have listed there are just the ones I would like to attend in general but that will most likely change when I know exactly what I want to research. The fact that I still don't know what I want to research and that I will have to start applying in less than a year makes me think that I might not be a good enough candidate for a PhD just yet and that I should rather focus on a MS for starters. 

 

Anyway,

 

Thanks for your answer!

Edited March 7, 2015 by burgundywave

[GeoDUDE!]

At top universities (ranked 35 or better) you will have a much harder time finding a funded MS vs PhD. I suggest you use this time to focus what kinds of geophysics you want to do and approach those POIs. Thats how you get into a top program. No one will admit you on numbers alone, they just arent important enough. 

[burgundywave]

On 3/6/2015 at 9:29 PM, GeoDUDE! said:

At top universities (ranked 35 or better) you will have a much harder time finding a funded MS vs PhD. I suggest you use this time to focus what kinds of geophysics you want to do and approach those POIs. Thats how you get into a top program. No one will admit you on numbers alone, they just arent important enough. 

 

Yes, that makes a lots of sense, I will definitely try to approach POIs as soon as I figure out my exact area of interest. Since you seem to know a lot about the application process, do you know how long in advance I should contact these POIs if I am applying for Fall 2016 ? I feel like right now is too early because they are still in the process of admitting Fall 2015 students. 

 

Thanks for your input! 

[GeoDUDE!]

Yes, that makes a lots of sense, I will definitely try to approach POIs as soon as I figure out my exact area of interest. Since you seem to know a lot about the application process, do you know how long in advance I should contact these POIs if I am applying for Fall 2016 ? I feel like right now is too early because they are still in the process of admitting Fall 2015 students. 

 

Thanks for your input! 

 

 

I would talk to them between late august and early October.  If you figure out what types of geophysics your interested in your target schools might change.  I know  a lot of geophysicists at the places you are apply but all of those programs have much different strengths. 

[burgundywave]

Great, I will do that ! Thanks again, that was really helpful. 

[idiochromatic]

Great, I will do that ! Thanks again, that was really helpful. 

Just to reiterate, the best way you can spend your time right now is actually going to these schools' websites, looking at the profiles of the geophysics faculty, and thinking about what projects you would find exciting. I know you are planning on doing geophysics research in the future, but getting a sense of what folks in the field are working on now will 1) help you think about what sort of research you'd want to do this summer and 2) help you whittle down your list of schools, and include other excellent programs that you've overlooked. Right now, you've just listed some of the top schools for earth science--which is great, but you may be surprised at how some of them simply will not match your needs. For example-- I really wanted to apply to UW Seattle, for example, because I love the area and the school is top-notch--no research match. The research fit is the most important (and it seems, overlooked) part of the school selection process and doing your due diligence on that will pay off with offers of admission.

[burgundywave]

Super I will do that! And what about the fact that I don't have a BA in Earth Sciences, does that reduce my chances significantly or it doesn't really matter?

[GeoDUDE!]

Super I will do that! And what about the fact that I don't have a BA in Earth Sciences, does that reduce my chances significantly or it doesn't really matter?

 

It does not,  I also do not have a BA/BS in Earth Science.

 

Your international status will probably affect you more at public schools.

[tuff]

During this season's prospective student visit at Stanford, I found that all invited students (applying for PhD) have done an undergraduate (Honors) thesis, just to give you a perspective. Granted that this is a different department (Geology), I think it would greatly strengthen your application (as well as focus your research interests) if you do an undergraduate thesis. My two cents. 

 

FWIW, there were 3 international students during the visit, 2 from Canada and 1 from the UK. Good luck to you! 

 

*edited to add:

 

Especially if a PhD is your immediate goal after undergrad, then a thesis is the best way to get your feet wet with independent research!

Edited March 7, 2015 by tuff

[burgundywave]

During this season's prospective student visit at Stanford, I found that all invited students (applying for PhD) have done an undergraduate (Honors) thesis, just to give you a perspective. Granted that this is a different department (Geology), I think it would greatly strengthen your application (as well as focus your research interests) if you do an undergraduate thesis. My two cents. 

 

FWIW, there were 3 international students during the visit, 2 from Canada and 1 from the UK. Good luck to you! 

 

*edited to add:

 

Especially if a PhD is your immediate goal after undergrad, then a thesis is the best way to get your feet wet with independent research!

 

 

Thanks for the advice! Unfortunately, doing an honours thesis is not a possibility in my program (civil engineering) :/

[idiochromatic]

Thanks for the advice! Unfortunately, doing an honours thesis is not a possibility in my program (civil engineering) :/

I didn't do an honors thesis but got in plenty of places. As long as you have independent research experience--which it sounds like you are pursing--and can communicate clearly about it, I think you will be fine

[GeoDUDE!]

I don't even think research is that important to be honest... I know people make a big deal about it... but depending on the field in geophysics and how complete your skill set is, you might even more more qualified to do the research than people who have extensive research experience.  If you know C++/C that will go a long way in computational work. I don't know the proportion of earth science majors that know how to code in C++/C (OOP) as an undergrad, but my guess is a fraction of a percent.  

[burgundywave]

I don't even think research is that important to be honest... I know people make a big deal about it... but depending on the field in geophysics and how complete your skill set is, you might even more more qualified to do the research than people who have extensive research experience.  If you know C++/C that will go a long way in computational work. I don't know the proportion of earth science majors that know how to code in C++/C (OOP) as an undergrad, but my guess is a fraction of a percent.  

 

Glad to hear that! I do know how to code in C/C++, so I'll make sure to point that out in my application. 

[tuff]

I don't even think research is that important to be honest... I know people make a big deal about it... but depending on the field in geophysics and how complete your skill set is, you might even more more qualified to do the research than people who have extensive research experience.  If you know C++/C that will go a long way in computational work. I don't know the proportion of earth science majors that know how to code in C++/C (OOP) as an undergrad, but my guess is a fraction of a percent.  

 

Herein lies the deep-rooted difference between geology and geophysics majors!    

[GeoDUDE!]

Herein lies the deep-rooted difference between geology and geophysics majors!    

 

I think thats really the difference between heavy description sciences (traditional geology) and  quantitative sciences  (computational geophysics).  A lot of geophysics is field based, and even most seismology isn't what I would call computer heavy. 

 

You see math, chemistry, physics and computer science students get into graduate schools without much research experience. Even a lot of lab based research is somewhat lenient. 

 

That being said... having research experience makes for stronger letters and probably a stronger SOP.

[Usmivka]

I would talk to them between late august and early October.

I'd say do it earlier, like now. The reason otherwise qualified people don't get admitted is funding. If you find a good fit now, there is plenty of time for 1. your potential advisor to think through your role with you and write your funding into the August NSF proposal, and 2. you to to do the same and apply for an external fellowship like the NSERC.

[burgundywave]

Also, I was wondering, when applying for a PhD, will I automatically be considered for a MS if they don't think I'm good enough for a PhD just yet? (Assuming the school does offer a MS)

[GeoDUDE!]

Also, I was wondering, when applying for a PhD, will I automatically be considered for a MS if they don't think I'm good enough for a PhD just yet? (Assuming the school does offer a MS)

 

I don't know. But I'm not sure how adcoms evaluate a PhD student vs a MS student. Usually if the POI has money for someone and wants someone, they get them, and they either want a PhD or a MS student. I would think it weird for a adcomm to say, this guy isn't good enough, but you can have him as an MS instead of having him as a PhD. While its true the guaranteed funding is different, there are plenty of ways an advisor can get rid of a PhD student if he/she is bad. 

 

But I really dont know, and thats why I think funded MS students are more rare than not: if your going to fund someone, why not have them for 5 instead of 2 ? Constantly looking for good students to fill the department (mostly masters) means more work. 

 

Edit: In my department, even though we offer an MS, and fund all students (don't take non funded students), about 1/5 of our population is MS and the rest are PhD. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by GeoDUDE!

[bananaphone]

You see math, chemistry, physics and computer science students get into graduate schools without much research experience. Even a lot of lab based research is somewhat lenient. 

 

Really?  I disagree with that statement.  My friends in math/chemistry/physics departments all had extensive research experience.  Most had 3+ years of research experience and had their name on at least one paper in undergrad.  Those fields are super competitive.

[GeoDUDE!]

Really?  I disagree with that statement.  My friends in math/chemistry/physics departments all had extensive research experience.  Most had 3+ years of research experience and had their name on at least one paper in undergrad.  Those fields are super competitive.

 

Just because you see people with research experience doesn't mean that there aren't people in graduate school without it, or that they put a particular weight on it. In other words: causation and correlation are two different things. 

 

You get a 4.0 GPA and a 900 on the physics GRE and come from an american university and see who rejects you? 

[TakeruK]

Just throwing in my two cents too:

 

To answer your two questions:

You are definitely a good candidate for PhD programs! The two USRA experiences would more than make up for not having an honours thesis. My earth science department (at one of the schools you list) regularly accepts people without an undergraduate degree in the exact field they are applying to graduate school for.

 

Additional tips:

1. I agree with the above poster that as an international student, you will have a much easier time getting into private schools than public schools. I think it's fine that you have Berkeley and UCLA on that list, but if you were to add more schools to it, I would add private schools.

 

2. Knowing how to code is really important for geophysics in my program. The language of choice here seems to be MATLAB, but really, if you know how to code in one, it's not that hard to learn another.

 

3. Apply for the NSERC PGS-D this fall !! Bringing in external funding is great. I would not start contacting professors just yet, as many programs are still figuring out admits for Fall 2015. However, you should start reaching out to professors this summer. Mention that you are applying to the PGS-D which requires a research proposal (but does not bind you to actually carrying out that research). The collaborative process of writing this proposal for a potential PhD project is also really helpful to determine your research interests, which is good practice for grad school applications too.

 

4. You have another 9 months or so before you start applying to schools -- try to get as much research experience in geology/geophysics as possible. Are you eligible for another USRA this summer? If so, do it in geophysics research! It seems like my program either values a rich research background or extremely high GPAs and test scores. You already have above-average research experience and excellent GPAs and test scores, so adding more research will really make your profile stellar.

[bananaphone]

Just because you see people with research experience doesn't mean that there aren't people in graduate school without it, or that they put a particular weight on it. In other words: causation and correlation are two different things. 

 

You get a 4.0 GPA and a 900 on the physics GRE and come from an american university and see who rejects you? 

 

I disagree with your generalization that it's easier to get into grad school in physics/chemistry without prior research experience.

 

Good grades and test scores alone are not enough to get into those programs at my university.  Just have a look at some of the MIT/Harvard/Stanford rejections from Physics/Chemistry.  Here's a few examples from skimming this year's results page: (1) Harvard Physics rejected a student with a 4.0 GPA and a 980 on the physics GRE, (2) MIT Physics rejected a student with a 4.0 GPA and a 900 on the physics GRE, and (3) Stanford Physics rejected a  student with a 3.92 GPA and a 900 on the physics GRE.

 

Good GPAs and GREs alone are not sufficient to get into the top programs in physics/chemistry/math just like good GPAs and GREs alone are not sufficient to get into the top programs in earth science.

[GeoDUDE!]

Good GPAs and GREs alone are not sufficient to get into the top programs in physics/chemistry/math just like good GPAs and GREs alone are not sufficient to get into the top programs in earth science.

 

 

I think you are misinterpreting what I've said. Sure research experience helps, but lets think about why it helps. It probably mostly helps from enriching your Statement of Purpose and your Letters of Recommendation. But you don't need research experience to have those things.

 

Another thing that research experience helps you with is building skills. Things like programming, writing ect. Again, to develop those skills, you also don't need research experience. There are plenty of people who are very good numerical programmers and problem solvers that don't have research experience.

 

I think you see a lot of people get into graduate school with research experience, not just because they have research experience, but most top students have research experience.  

 

And then there is something unsettling about your argument itself: you attempt to make a statistical claim (look, here are 3 people who got rejected from top schools) without really thinking about the statistics themselves. Where did those students get in? Don't a majority of people who apply with research experience, good grades, and test scores get rejected from schools like that anyway? What's the selection bias of people who post on grad cafe or in the results section?

 

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I do know I have friends (especially who were engineering majors) who are now in physcs,chemistry, and earth science grad schools who did very little to no research experience because their course list didn't allow them to have time to do it. So the statement: 

 

"Good GPAs and GREs alone are not sufficient to get into the top programs in physics/chemistry/math just like good GPAs and GREs alone are not sufficient to get into the top programs in earth science."'

 

is true, but no one made that claim. People who good GREs, and good GPAs also probably have strong letters and a maybe a good statement of purpose. At least the ones who make it into graduate school do. Not all of them have research experience, I have personally met those people. 

 

PS: where did I say its easier to get into graduate school without research? I just said its not as important as people make it out to be. Those are two different statements.

Edited March 10, 2015 by GeoDUDE!