The MA-before-PhD Can of Worms

[callmelilyb]

Hello Everyone,

I've been combing over this forum for the past several weeks and think it's great! I do know that the question of pursuing an MA before PhD is a contentious issue on here (especially regarding unfunded MA programs it seems) but I'd like to get some additional thoughts on this.

If people don't want to re-hash things out on here maybe some of you would be interested in answering some questions via PM? I'd be especially interested in those who did or are in the process of taking the MA-first route.

At any rate, here are some basic details that may help shed some light on my current quandary:

I'm a non-English major hoping to ultimately pursue a PhD in English Literature.

I got my BA in Political Science at a bottom-tier public university in California (one of those CSU _____).

I have average to good grades (3.7 cumulative and 4.0 in English courses of which I have completed about 30 upper division units).

I recently took the GRE -- scored 740 verbal and 5.5 AW (One of my essay topics was ACTUALLY about recalling cans of tuna for crying out loud!).

I have very strong letters of rec and am confident I can knock out a good statement of purpose, writing sample, etc.

I speak Spanish fluently (lived in Southern Spain for a year during undergrad) so I've got one of the language requirements down.

My issues are that: I'm not an English major, my undergrad institution is of laughable quality, and my grades while strong, aren't exceptional. I also don't know that I've focused my areas of interest of research enough to assemble a strong enough "package" for PhD programs (this especially concerns me since program "fit" seems to be of the utmost importance for PhD admissions)....I know I like realism/naturalism, poetry/poetics, lyric prose, the novel, um you get my drift.

I guess my questions are two-fold:

1. How does one decide that one is "ready" or "competitive" for a PhD program? How do I separate my own insecurities from being realistic about my chances?

2. Do you think that for someone in my situation, who hopes to eventually get into a well-ranked (not top 10, but certainly top 20-30) program would be well-served by going the MA first route?

I know to steer clear of those "cash-grab" programs like NYU, but what about somewhere that I may not get funding but would probably benefit by strengthening myself as an applicant?

Thanks in advance to all of you for any comments, tips, advice, or suggestions you have to offer!

[rainy_day]

Here's my two cents:

If you know you want a PhD, I think it makes the most sense to apply straight to a PhD program because a) it can save a lot of money and who would want to deal with this application process twice?

That being said, I don't think that the MA first is always a bad idea. I think the question you have to ask is: how much will I improve as a candidate? I have a friend who is completing her MA right now, and she's gained a huge amount of confidence, improved her grades and writing, and presented at a lot of conferences, and learned a lot. Overall, she is a stronger candidate having been through the MA first. She also spent a lot of money on it.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but I guess I am trying to say that an MA first can be helpful, if you think you need a leg up. I think if you don't need the leg up, then it is a waste of $$. Personally, I don't think it would be much of a boost for my application, so I'm only applying straight to PhD programs (see point a. and b.)

Is their an English prof from undergrad that you can talk to? They will probably be your best asset, since they know you and obviously the field.

Are you committed to applying this year? Another option might be to take a few grad-level courses at a nearby university in English to prove that you are up to the task and can keep up with the work, meanwhile you would work and save up some money.

[circumfession]

rainy_day offered some very good advice, so I will build onto it with some ancetodal evidence.

The MA-before-Ph.D can be well worth it, but only to the right students at the right programs. I've told this story before, but I think it bears rehashing. My partner completed his MA at a "cash cow" program with a large MA cohort, after being rejected from every Ph.D program that he applied to (including virtually unranked ones)...for two rounds straight. Applying with an MA in hand his third round, he had multiple Ph.D offers, including from a top-5 program. Out of the dozen or so of his MA peers who also applied this round, some received offers from Duke, Berkeley, Oregon, CUNY, and his MA institution (this is obviously a very, very incomplete list since I can't account for every student from his MA cohort). As harsh as this may sound, the results were somewhat predictable. The "picks of the MA litter" ended up at Berkeley and Duke. Other strong students wounded up at various other Ph.D programs. The weaker students who never quite caught on...didn't get into a single program. They all took the same classes (with some variation), and many obtained recs from the same professors. Some students made the expensive MA worth it, some did not. I can only offer some conjectures on what might have made the difference:

The students who tend to benefit from an MA program tend to have the most of the fundamental skills needed for graduate school, but lack one or two elements that they quickly identity and correct before their Ph.D applications. Many students use the MA to gain the background that their lackluster undergrad programs did not provide. The MA is also an opportunity to gain the scholarly aptitude necessary to 1) produce a well-researched, well-thought-out, well-written writing sample

2) understand your field (and its current conversations) well enough to articulate a project in your SoP.

It's really hard to articulate how much you learn in your first year of graduate school...but it really is a lot. Even as a Ph.D student (aka, theoretically, I was judged "fit" for graduate school without an MA in hand), my writing and scholarship has changed dramatically in the past year, far moreso than in all four yera of undergraduate program combined. My hunch is that under the right conditions, that difference can be even more dramatic for someone with slightly more holes to patch.

In short, as I'm sure you already know, the MA is an opportunity and nothing else. It can potentially hurt you (the bar, I suspect but can't confirm, is higher for MA applicants than their BA counterparts), but if you can use that time and resources to "catch up" and exceed students with a B.A who did major in English and already knows how to produce the sophisticated WS and SoP's necessary, it might be well worth it.

(the real question is...is it worth the cost? My partner worked 30 hours a week while completing his MA [and almost all his peers did the same] and is still deeply in debt).

To address some of your questions:

"My issues are that: I'm not an English major, my undergrad institution is of laughable quality, and my grades while strong, aren't exceptional. I also don't know that I've focused my areas of interest of research enough to assemble a strong enough "package" for PhD programs (this especially concerns me since program "fit" seems to be of the utmost importance for PhD admissions)....I know I like realism/naturalism, poetry/poetics, lyric prose, the novel, um you get my drift."

That list is WAY too big. Even one element on that list might be a bit broad. Pick something (anything) that you're interested in, explore it in greater depth, figure out what's being said it right NOW, and situate yourself in that academic conversation. (fair warning: if you're applying with an MA, you'll need to be even more specialized). You're not married to your SoP topic...and in fact, a good many of my 2nd-year peers have already moved onto to issues entirely unrelated to what we said we'd study in our SoP's. That's normal. But you DO need to show that you can comprehend and contribute to a critical discourse.

I guess my questions are two-fold:

1. How does one decide that one is "ready" or "competitive" for a PhD program? How do I separate my own insecurities from being realistic about my chances?

You don't. I suspect, one never does. One of my professor told me something that I realize, increasing, is so true: EVERYONE in academia is scared s---less, from the graduate dean, to the tenured professor, even down to the first year graduate student. The only ones who aren't scared are undergrads, because they don't know what is at stake for the rest of us. However, you do learn to evaluate your work by the standards of the articles, books, etc that you admire. AFter all, the goal (publish or perish!) is to eventually write at THAT level...and graduate school is a long process towards getting there. It's not to say that your work must be publishable immediately (this is very rarely the case, even at the tip-top program), but you learn to grasp the increasingly more nuanced arguments...and find the tiny footholds that allows you to make your own case, in turn.

I hope that that was helpful rather than mystical.

2. Do you think that for someone in my situation, who hopes to eventually get into a well-ranked (not top 10, but certainly top 20-30) program would be well-served by going the MA first route?

Honestly, yes, I think it would help you....BUT (and this is a huge caveat) can you afford it? And can you live with yourself even if you don't get into a stellar Ph.D program afterwards? Good luck. This is a really tough situation, I think. It may serve you well to take a swing at strong Ph.D programs alongside the MA applications, just in case (though application fees do add up). If nothing else, you might be able to solicit feedback for later rounds.

Finally, I hesitate to say this, because I think that the numbers mean very little unless you know the stories behind them, but it might be worth it to ask the DGS of your MA programs how their past students have fared. You may need to press a little for a more complete picture (or discretely ask the graduate students, though this can be a very touchy topic).

[callmelilyb]

Wow. Thank you both so much for the thoughtful responses. I appreciate it.

To address some of the issues you both brought up:

I do feel that my primary weakness as a PhD applicant is that I have yet to engage in what I consider "rigorous academic scholarship" in my field. Frankly, the student body quality at my university is bad, and when I sad bad, I mean...bad and classes are appallingly easy with wildly low standards. I tend to blow my professors away with my work, and frankly I don't think it's THAT good. I've made the best of available resources, have connected with a handful of the very best literature professors here (who are all trying to recruit me to stay here for the MA, seriously a couple of them are like military recruiters), pushed myself academically in my courses, etc. etc. But. I've never written a paper over 10-12 pages, or studied literary theory, or anything of that sort. So, as circumfession so aptly put it I'd be attending an MA program in the hopes to: "gain the background that my lackluster undergrad program did not provide."

It seems to me that the major concern for most people is cost. And frankly, I can't really "afford" an unfunded MA...I'll certainly be working 30+ hours and taking out large loans. Circumfession, now that it's all said and done, does your partner feel that the MA was worth it? That being said, if being deeply in debt means that I get into one of my choice programs down the line and get to study/teach/think about/write about literature for the rest of my life I suppose I think it's worth it. (Perhaps I'm being corny and wildly naive?) Plus, my husband started medical school this fall so I'm kind of banking on him being able to pull us out of debt when he opens his radiology practice some day....joking...sort of.

I think I may take your advice and send off a few PhD applications along with my MA apps and see what happens. The worse they can do is say no, right?

I'm also thinking over the suggestion that rainy_day made about taking some grad-level courses on my own rather than going into an actual program, may be a good option if nothing comes through as far as funding is concerned.

Lots to chew over now......

[rainy_day]

Good luck! I took a lit theory class last fall at a local university, and it was wildly helpful in narrowing my focus. Also, I didn't have a strong lit theory background from my undergrad, so if that's a hole for you and it's something you'd like to learn more about, I'd definitely recommend taking that for a class.

Also, there are some funded MA out there. Maybe if your lit profs are trying to recruit you, they can work out some funding? If your undergrad student body is poor in quality, that doesn't mean the grad program is, you know?

Here's a list of some funded MA programs: http://community.livejournal.com/wgi_lo ... 10017.html

[circumfession]

Circumfession, now that it's all said and done, does your partner feel that the MA was worth it? That being said, if being deeply in debt means that I get into one of my choice programs down the line and get to study/teach/think about/write about literature for the rest of my life I suppose I think it's worth it.

He does think that it's worth it...but I'm not sure that this is the right moment to ask. Had I dared pose that question to him in February, when we were still waiting for results, I think you might have obtained a more useful answer.

Strangely enough, until this year, I've found that I learned far more from doing independent research (even when I received no credit, and without any official guidance) than in my classrooms. Although it's always idea to have the guidance of a class or at least a professor, you can always simply roll up your sleeve, pick a topic that interests you, and dive into the research. Many of the best scholars that I know of are largely self-taught, and came from less prestigious colleges.

[callmelilyb]

Taking a lit theory class is beginning to sound like a great idea....

Yes, I am 99% sure I could get a great funding package for the MA program at my undergrad university (well, my advisor has all but said that I won't have to pay a dime if I stay here), I just have a hard time choosing my graduate institution based solely on funding...is this really how people make their decision? I seriously think I'd rather be $50k in debt if it means I can go somewhere that's worth a damn.

I have taken some of the senior sem. courses that a handful of the grad students take each semester so I have seen a few of them at work and I'm not impressed. Frankly, I feel like my professor's want me to stay here so that when they send me off to Berkeley they can take credit for it....they've all but stated that I would "open doors" for other promising MA students that would come after me. That's not really my concern though, honestly.

I do really like working with one of my profs and will be sad to leave him....but he's young/untenured and I'm convinced that if I commit to the MA he'll get a job offer somewhere else and abandon me. Plus, the public university sytem in California right now is in serious crisis mode. Our graduate program offered two (that's right TWO) grad seminars this semester. And they say it's only going to get worse. There are also rumors of "death of graduate programs at all CSU's in the state" floating around. Lovely. No thanks.

Circumfession: I agree with your comments on "self-study" -- maybe I need to get over my "little man university" complex already. It's just that all the freakin' grad pamphlets feature students who "graduated summa cum laude from Yale wth a triple major in comp lit, japanese and arabic and have won every award on the planet and have published more articles than I've ever even read in my whole life...." Exaggerating, but you get my drift. And I'm not THAT GREAT, I'm just smart and good with words....sort of.

[circumfession]

I know that you meant this as a rhetorical gesture, but Berkeley has not (at least not in my knowledge, in these past few years) taken a student who completed the MA at a CSU...though other UC English programs have. Do what's best for you. Your primary obligation is to your own work. While there's a lot to be said for loyalty and congeniality (you'd be committing career suicide otherwise), it does sound as though you really should shop around. At least you have the consolation of knowing that you'll get into an MA program this year, regardless of what happens with the rest of your apps.

[charles mingus]

I'm in a situation very similar to the OP's and am very thankful to circumfession and rainy_day for their excellent, thoughtful advice.

[charles mingus]

I do really like working with one of my profs and will be sad to leave him....but he's young/untenured and I'm convinced that if I commit to the MA he'll get a job offer somewhere else and abandon me.

FWIW, my research indicates that an untenured connection is not a terribly useful one for those of us in the 'stepping-stone' game. LORs, it seems, have much more weight when they're from a tenured professor--and especially a well respected tenured professor. Maybe, then, you should try and find other programs that have an approach/research interests similar to this prof's.

[circumfession]

This doesn't pertain to the original question, but I wanted to throw this out there. Since both of you seem interested (to some degree) in theory, be very careful about how you frame that interest and how it plays out in your writing sample. Nearly every professor (particularly those tenured within the last two decades) have something of a theoretical background, but in some programs (even theoretically-oriented ones), there is a backlash against a certain, heavy-handed use of theory. You might want to avoid, for example, a straightforward "deconstructive/feminist/postcolonialists/whatnot reading of X text." While that was popular in the 1980's (and not uncommon among my undergraduates even now), it's ultimately not a very convincing or sophisticated way of approaching literature. I say this, largely because I made that mistake during my applications, and I'm sure that it cost me some acceptances.

Good luck to both of you.

[callmelilyb]

Thanks for the suggestions, especially regarding the use of theory in my writing sample....something I'll definitely keep in mind once I figure out which of my seminar papers I want to work on for the next few months. Would you say that close-reading of the text is something I would want to balance with my use of theory? Or something else? It's my understanding that the most important thing about the writing sample is to show that you can construct, defend, and sustain a cogent argument, and preferably one which embodies some essence of originality or new insight.

As far as Berkeley goes, I did mean that rhetorically but the reason I used it is because the MA program here actually did send a young woman to the PhD program there in the past few years...it's one of the "selling points" that keeps getting brought up to me by the professors who want me to stay. Now that I thinnk about it, maybe I should ask for her name and try to get in contact with her to see what she has to say about our program, hmmmm.....

Your point about getting Letters of Recommendation from tenured professor's is well-taken and one that I hadn't thought about until just recently. Do you think it's a bad idea if only one of my three letters comes from an untenured professor? Or in other words, if I can get three good letters from tenured professors is that the way to go even if the young untenured prof thinks I'm a genius and will write me a slightly more enthusiastic letter?

[circumfession]

I tend to be wary of one-hit wonders. Every few years, there's always an outstanding student or two who came from a less-than-stellar program (BA or MA), only to get into every top-notch school that he/she applies to. Having met a handful of those students myself, it seems that they did well *despite* their background, rather than because of it. It's their experiences outside the classroom--in the library, pursuing solo projects--that earned them the acceptances. I have an enormous amount of respect (awe, really) for these programs, but I do wonder how much of it can be attributed to their formal--as opposed to informal--training.

Re: theory. I'm afraid that my answer will take a mystical turn. In my most recent round of applications, I was not a BA student, so I was accustomed to a considerably higher bar. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly WHERE the bar is at for someone with a BA. Close reading + theoretical application served me reasonably well the first time, though that's hardly "ideal" and I still wince at my original writing sample. It's a good way to showcase undergraduate skills--after all, this is what you learn (or what one should have learned) as an undergrad. But ultimately, that's not necessarily a very productive way of approaching literature, though it is an important pedagogical tool. I suppose it depends what programs you're aiming for. My hunch--and one that bears out when I consider my most successful colleagues' respective writing samples--is that the most competitive applicants, with an MA or a BA, are able to subtly weave other several approaches with their own comprehensive take, while offering an original consideration of a multivalent issue. They've fully digested the theor(ies) that they're using, but offer something more subtle and individualistic than a "x theoretical reading of y text." It's not to say that the best writing samples are publishable (there's plenty of crappy publications that no one should emulate) and publication requires a slightly different, far better researched approach, but the sophistication of the best writing samples does approach that bar.

It was charles who offered you that insight about untenured professors, but I'll take a crack at your question:

if your professor know you well, go for it! Tenure certainly helps (it's never to be underestimated), but the subtle and powerful personal allies, name recognition, etc in academia can be just as important (hence, partially why students from top-flight undergrads have an advantage). If you know that of professors that ARE famous in your field, it would behoove you to take classes with them (if you can) and solicit their recommendation. That said, it's ALWAYS a good idea to go with a professor that knows you well, tenured or not. (non-tenure-track is a different story. I wouldn't recommend asking a lecturer for an LoR, unless it is truly your last resort. There is a pecking order in academia).

[rainy_day]

Or in other words, if I can get three good letters from tenured professors is that the way to go even if the young untenured prof thinks I'm a genius and will write me a slightly more enthusiastic letter?

Definitely get the wildly enthusiastic letter!!

[charles mingus]

(non-tenure-track is a different story. I wouldn't recommend asking a lecturer for an LoR, unless it is truly your last resort. There is a pecking order in academia).

This is what I was trying to suggest--that tenured and tenure-track profs are those to whom we ought to look for LORs. A new assistant professor who has not yet received tenure is most likely a different case than an adjuncter.

[caught_between]

Hello Everyone,

I've been combing over this forum for the past several weeks and think it's great! I do know that the question of pursuing an MA before PhD is a contentious issue on here (especially regarding unfunded MA programs it seems) but I'd like to get some additional thoughts on this.

If people don't want to re-hash things out on here maybe some of you would be interested in answering some questions via PM? I'd be especially interested in those who did or are in the process of taking the MA-first route.

At any rate, here are some basic details that may help shed some light on my current quandary:

I'm a non-English major hoping to ultimately pursue a PhD in English Literature.

I got my BA in Political Science at a bottom-tier public university in California (one of those CSU _____).

I have average to good grades (3.7 cumulative and 4.0 in English courses of which I have completed about 30 upper division units).

I recently took the GRE -- scored 740 verbal and 5.5 AW (One of my essay topics was ACTUALLY about recalling cans of tuna for crying out loud!).

I have very strong letters of rec and am confident I can knock out a good statement of purpose, writing sample, etc.

I speak Spanish fluently (lived in Southern Spain for a year during undergrad) so I've got one of the language requirements down.

My issues are that: I'm not an English major, my undergrad institution is of laughable quality, and my grades while strong, aren't exceptional. I also don't know that I've focused my areas of interest of research enough to assemble a strong enough "package" for PhD programs (this especially concerns me since program "fit" seems to be of the utmost importance for PhD admissions)....I know I like realism/naturalism, poetry/poetics, lyric prose, the novel, um you get my drift.

I guess my questions are two-fold:

1. How does one decide that one is "ready" or "competitive" for a PhD program? How do I separate my own insecurities from being realistic about my chances?

2. Do you think that for someone in my situation, who hopes to eventually get into a well-ranked (not top 10, but certainly top 20-30) program would be well-served by going the MA first route?

I know to steer clear of those "cash-grab" programs like NYU, but what about somewhere that I may not get funding but would probably benefit by strengthening myself as an applicant?

Thanks in advance to all of you for any comments, tips, advice, or suggestions you have to offer!

tlsaborido, thanks so much for posting this. Like charles mingus, I am also in a nearly identical situation as you. I'm not an English major (minor only), my undergrad institution is also of laughable quality, and my grades are not exceptional, merely average; I'll have a 3.7-3.8 average in my English courses when I graduate with my BA in May. However, it was a great help to read everyone's answers here. I would definitely prefer to enroll directly in the Ph.D. program, mostly because of cost (I already have enough undergrad loans as it is) but also because I feel like the M.A.-before-Ph.D. can work against you, as I've read on this forum. But perhaps in our situation, it would help "ready" us for a Ph.D. program. I am admittedly quite worried about my writing sample and my SoP. The longest paper I've ever written in my undergrad career is 15 pages, and even though I earned an A with a good deal of praise, I, like you, take that with a grain of salt coming from the quality of my undergrad institution.

I am wondering exactly what it takes for one to produce a mind-blowing SoP if it's been suggested that one need enter an M.A. program to gain the skills to do so (if they have little formal experience, like you or me)?? Same with the writing sample. I am at a total loss as to what either of those should encompass! :/

[piccgeek]

Maybe this has been addressed in an earlier response (sorry I didn't read through them all), but...why not look for MA programs that will fund through TA-ships and teaching??

Last year when I was applying for lit grad programs, I only applied to a few MA, but mostly PhD, and got rejected from everywhere except my current MA program. The cool thing is that in my program, they only offer as many places in the program as they have TA ships for funding, so I'm fully funded (tuition and a [admittedly scanty] stipend for living expenses) because I teach 1 class of 20 students. I know several MA English programs that do this, because they NEED their grad students to teach all the freaking freshmen who are required to take comp. Yeah, teaching is "working" to pay for school, but it's relevant experience, a relatively small time investment, and it's FUN, at least, I think it is.

As for the more general MA versus PhD question...I was completely certain I wanted straight into a PhD program while I was applying, but now I KNOW I wasn't ready. My list of interests was as long as yours, and that made it impossible for me to know which programs "fit" me (oh, that magical, magical "fit"). Sure, I'm learning way more theory now, I know the research projects I'm doing this semester are more rigorous than the stuff I did in undergrad and that will all improve my application for PhDs, blah blah blah, but more important than any of that, I'm getting a better handle on what EXACTLY I want out of my graduate education (even if, for me, this means I'm drifting away from English lit somewhat, but hey, if you had asked me a year ago, I would have told you that was impossible). Last year, all I knew was that I HAD to go on in English studies, and that I really liked reading and studying [insert very long list of almost everything I've actually studied here]. My current MA program, even in these first few months, has really helped me understand what academia, and the field of literary studies, is all about, what it requires and demands, and what I am ACTUALLY willing to spend the next 5-7 years of my life studying.

So...I guess the sum total of my advice is to look for funded MA programs. They're out there, I promise.

Good luck!

[plasticastle]

I completely agree with the above poster. I wanted to go straight into a PhD program after undergrad, but was only accepted to MA programs. I decided to attend NYU. I initially applied to their PhD program, and it was one of my top choices, so I decided to take advantage of the opportunity. Within the first two weeks, I realized that I was completely not ready to enter directly into a PhD program. I went to a very small liberal arts university, and even though I received a great education, I was not prepared to handle the true nature of literary studies, especially the literary theory. Even though I've been in the program for only a few months, I've already learned a great deal about the field of English and about myself. I think not entering directly into a PhD program has allowed me to see that I have other options. Next fall I plan to apply to no more than five PhD programs because I truly would like to take time off and teach, which is the initial reason why I wanted to get my PhD.

Furthermore, doing my MA in New York has really helped to show me the importance of getting "real life experience." I highly advise going for an MA before a PhD if there are any doubts whatsoever about entering directly into a PhD program. I also think it's a great way to really determine what you want to pursue and a way to narrow your focus.