Not sure about my future / Wrong program / Switching fields

[john_doe]

I've already posted a similar topic but under another name and got pretty aggressive replies, though I tried to do my best to avoid offending anybody. Now I decided to ask my questions here, not in a specific subfield forum, but here. So, as a first-year grad student I really decided to switch my field and program completely. This is a tough decision, but a well-thought one. I feel like the field I'm currently in is a road to nowhere for me, for my future carrier. The new field is not a random choice, nor it's a choice only because of opportunities this field offers in future for me. It's a choice of my soul and my preference. I deliberately avoid naming the fields because some people can become angry or something. The thing is, I'm lack of necessary classes, knowledge, and, more importantly, credits to switch the field. What I'm doing right now is taking classes at another department as well as at my department. And I'm really worrying about it. I'm anxious about everything. Can professors or any staff in my department learn that I take unrelated courses? Can they see my schedule? What if they start asking questions? How can I say that I don't see my future in my current field but at the same time I want to stay in the program to get some time and take needed classes for another program? I'm so nervous about all these things that sometimes can't sleep and spend sleepless nights googling this issue and reading countless articles... Please, I need your advice. I understand that it looks like I'm betraying the program and professors who I'm currently interact with, but... I have to think about my future too. What do you guys think? Could you answer the questions I posted above? And any advice would be appreciated...

Edited August 18, 2015 by john_doe
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[eeee1923]

You're a grad student. Start reading - no one will expect you to learn everything overnight but you gotta start somewhere. If you don't know the answer, learn it for the next time. Consult with a prof in the new field that you know won't mind answering some questions for you, but remember it will be your responsibility to play "catch-up". Good luck. 

[TakeruK]

I understand that you want to protect yourself by not revealing extra information but it's also hard to give good answers without knowing some basic information. For example, whether you are in a research based PhD program or whether you are in a professional graduate program would make a big difference! You don't have to name fields precisely, but I think in order to give more useful feedback, it might be helpful to say:

1. Are you in a Masters or PhD program?

2. Are you in a funded program?

3. Are you in a research-based graduate program or a course-based program?

4. How different are the two fields you're considering? Is it like you are in an astrophysics program but want to do computer science? Or, is it like you are in an astrophysics program and now want to do genetics?

However, if you really don't want to answer these questions, here are some general thoughts based on the limited information you gave. All references to my experience are for a funded, research-based PhD program in the physical sciences, which might not be relevant to you!

A. Yes, in most graduate programs, your advisor will know exactly what courses you've taken. In my program and every program I've been to, my advisor actually has to sign off on all courses taken. I guess if you are already taking courses in another department right now, then you probably didn't need anyone to sign off! But, other faculty in my program will also see my transcript/courses taken when I am up for review during qualifying exams, candidacy, and maybe even advancement from one year to another.

B. Most schools aren't going to just let you switch graduate programs. You will have to apply to the new PhD program. In order to do this, you will likely want to get LORs from your current program. So, at some point, you are going to have to have a tough conversation with your faculty and let them know your intentions. It might be tough to get a good LOR if you take actions now that can be construed as deceptive later (e.g. accepting funding and telling people you want to continue in the program when you intend to leave all along). 

C. I agree that you need to think about your future too! I think there should be a nice clean way for everyone to end up happy but the exact details depend on information you haven't provided. For example, one potential solution is to finish your current program with a Masters degree. During this time, you should still fulfill all requirements of your program and do whatever TA/RA work required for your funding and meet all department needs. You should also take additional courses in whatever field you want to go to next for your own development. In most cases, I believe that if you are acting honestly and do not shirk your own program's requirements, it should be okay for you to seek out additional training/education for your future. And then when you leave the program, you can get a good LOR because it's understandable that you leave the program because of your changed research interests, not because the department was unhappy with your work or other conflicts. And, you'd leave with a degree, something to show for your time.

D. Finally, I just want to point out that there are resources on campus for you too. Maybe you would feel more comfortable sharing info there instead of strangers on the Internet. Resources on campus would also be more familiar with specific policies and protocol for your program. They might even know how faculty members generally behave and can help you strategize when to tell them etc. At my school, the Dean of Graduate Studies' office is exactly the place you want to go to get help with issues like this.

[john_doe]

Thank you for your detailed reply.

1. PhD program

2. No, I got external funding from another source. My dept. doesn't pay me anything, such as assistantship, grants, etc.

3. You confused me here. I don't know actually! I didn't know there are some differneces...

4. Like really different. I'm swtiching from humanities to hard sciences. 

Do you think my department can terminate me if they see that I take, say 2 grad courses inside the dept and 2 undergrad courses at another dept? Do they have any legal authority to terminate any student who they don't like or something?

[TakeruK]

Thank you for your detailed reply.

1. PhD program

2. No, I got external funding from another source. My dept. doesn't pay me anything, such as assistantship, grants, etc.

3. You confused me here. I don't know actually! I didn't know there are some differneces...

4. Like really different. I'm swtiching from humanities to hard sciences. 

Do you think my department can terminate me if they see that I take, say 2 grad courses inside the dept and 2 undergrad courses at another dept? Do they have any legal authority to terminate any student who they don't like or something?

For #3, at least in many science fields, a research based masters might have something like N courses plus a MSc thesis to defend while a course-based masters would be like 2*N courses and no thesis (it might also just be 1 year instead of 2). But since you answer "PhD program" to #1, then question #3 doesn't really apply since there aren't really any course-based PhD! 

As for your latest question, I'm not sure. As I said above, I'm used to programs where you have to ask permission to take courses prior to taking them, not afterwards! So, a program wouldn't terminate a student for taking courses outside of the department--they would just prohibit you from registering!

However, you really should check your program's policies. Are these outside-of-dept courses you are taking able to count towards your PhD program requirements? If they do not and the department finds out, they could remove you from the courses and/or block you from taking further courses. They can also consider all the time spent towards these courses as not time spent towards completing program requirements, which might give them an argument that you are not spending enough time in their program, and thus not making satisfactory progress and remove you.

You also mention "legal authority". Unless it is a case of discrimination, the law does not really apply to schools' decisions to pass or fail you. So, it's not really a question of "legal authority". Instead, it's a question of your program's academic policies. I would be very careful to read them and ensure that your extracurricular activities (i.e. these courses) are not going to get you into trouble. If you can fulfill all of the expectations of your current program and also fit in a few extra courses, it should be fine. But if you are dropping responsibilities to your program in order to try something different, then this is bad.

Finally, you say you have funding from an external source. You should also consult these policies in addition to your department/school's academic policies. If it's an external award, it might be awarded with the expectation that you do certain things, like make satisfactory progress in your own program instead of trying another program. Make sure there are no penalties for things like failing out of your current program.

Overall, I don't know all the details and I can't really judge you for your actions. But given what you have said here, I think you are at least in a moral gray area if you are trying to use your standing in a current program without intention of completing it in order to get a footing in another unrelated program. Maybe there are really good reasons for what you're doing, but I'd be careful, for all the reasons I said above. Would it not be more honest and ethical to drop out of the program that you are no longer interested in / no longer have intention of completing and start a new program that you are passionate about?

[john_doe]

No, I can't just drop my current program and start a new one. I'm international student and dropping this program means going back home. Then I will have to apply for UNDERGRAD program because I don't have credit and, which is more important, academic knowledge of my chosen field in order to apply for a grad program. So I have 2 choices: either continue pursuing degree in my current program while taking unrealted courses (which I can actually do and finish with masters instead of PHD) or simply take all necessary courses for the unrelated program as fast as possible and reapply.

[ExponentialDecay]

Your situation is complicated as it is; with the (giant) added complication of you being an international student (in the US?), I don't think you will find useful advice on the internet or indeed with anyone who doesn't know your situation in detail. Whether or not your program will know that you are taking courses outside the department will depend on your program. Whether or not they will take action against you for pursuing this course of action depends on your program, the people in charge, and which way the universe chooses to turn on that day. In general, no, you shouldn't be taking any classes that are not sanctioned by your academic advisor (and as such, classes that aren't progress towards your research/degree), but there are all sorts of programs out there, and all sorts of advisors out there, and strangers-who-may-be-dogs on the internet can't give you any advice in this regard. Like, this is something you have to plan and execute on your own.

That said, if I were in your situation, I would be asking myself some hard questions. For one, what specifically would getting out of this program with a master's in a humanities field and a bunch of unrelated courses on my transcript net me in real terms. I don't know where you're from, but in most countries outside the Anglo-Saxon jus soli set, people look at the subject of your degree to determine what you're qualified to do. Nobody's going to care about your random electives. If you're planning to apply for a PhD in STEM in the States, you will in 90% of cases need research experience. Do you have a plan for how you're going to get that while going rogue as a humanities PhD student? If you're applying for a master's, it may make sense to take the prereqs at your current institution since you're paying for it anyway, but how many prereqs are we talking? Finally, why is it so important for you to stay in your country of study? 

[TakeruK]

No, I can't just drop my current program and start a new one. I'm international student and dropping this program means going back home. Then I will have to apply for UNDERGRAD program because I don't have credit and, which is more important, academic knowledge of my chosen field in order to apply for a grad program. So I have 2 choices: either continue pursuing degree in my current program while taking unrealted courses (which I can actually do and finish with masters instead of PHD) or simply take all necessary courses for the unrelated program as fast as possible and reapply.

I will have two answers here. One that is idealistic and one that is practical. 

First, the idealistic answer: The fact that you are an international student and would have to go home if you dropped out of your program does not impact the morality of using funds to attend one graduate program while really taking courses to fulfill another goal. I'm sorry, but I think a student that accepts money (whether it's from the school or another source) to complete a certain PhD program while knowing that they will be in fact fulfilling another set of requirements is acting immorally. In the ideal world, the right thing to do is to either drop out of your program or finish the Masters program, return home, and then reapply to an undergrad program in your new field.

The practical answer: I'm sorry that the above answer is really judgmental. I realise that reality doesn't allow everyone to take perfectly ideal actions. I don't think this justifies immoral actions, however, sometimes the cost of being moral is higher than the cost of taking the immoral action. I don't know all the details of the situation but the fact that you are considering it means that there must be some really strong / compelling reason for you to take this action. 

In your first post, you say

"I understand that it looks like I'm betraying the program and professors who I'm currently interact with, but... I have to think about my future too. What do you guys think?"

The truth is that you are betraying your program and your professors by deceiving them about the intent of your time in their program. As I said above, you may have good reasons to do so, but you should proceed knowing that this is what you are doing. As such, my only advice for you is to be very careful and ensure that you stay within the bounds/policies of your program and your funding source as much as you can. I agree with ExponentialDecay that it is almost impossible for anyone here to give more specific advice because everything depends on your situation. Also, even if I knew your situation better, I'm not certain I would want to advise you on how to "cheat" the system because if you are successful, it eventually and indirectly hurts students who enroll in programs they intend to complete. 

All this said, although I don't agree with or support what you are trying to achieve (or at least, what it sounds like you are trying to achieve from the content provided here), I understand that you need to do what's best for you and I wish you good luck! I hope that you will recognize and realise that you are entering some immoral areas and take responsibility for that.

[john_doe]

Ok, it seems like I didn't tell you everything. I'm not a "bad student" or something. My logic is simple: as long as I do satisfactory progress towards my degree, e.g. take minimum 2 GRAD classes in my dept. per semester + 1 more which can be outside of the dept. (which I do) and get positive grades I can do whatever I want and spend my time outside of required classes and research however I want. So I spend this time taking unrelated courses. It does not harm my PHD program in any way. Everything I said now is in the policy guide, which I indeed read before ever thinking about taking unrelated courses.

Second, my financial aid coming from the university, but not from the dept. itself, so it has the same policies - a student has to stay inside a program, e.g. take 2 + 1 courses per semester and have good grades.

So the question is more about moral side of my venture. From your replies I learnt that it really depends on university and department, so it seems like there is no way to evaluate the success of what I intended to do. However, I know one person who did exactly the same thing, except he chose another field and another university, though the field was somewhat related. So I assume if one person did it, then I can do it too.

Lyrical digression: sometimes it's really hard to find a field or profession that you will like and enjoy.

[TakeruK]

I'm glad that you are acting within the policies of your department, university and financial aid  Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote earlier, because it sounded like you were violating some kind of policy. I thought this because you wrote about your concerns that if your advisor found out, they would have grounds to remove you from the program. But if you are doing what you say and taking the courses as required/allowed by your policies then you can cite these policies if your program has issues with your out of department courses. As I said above, if you make satisfactory progress in your main degree program and your policies don't exclude you from taking these extra courses, you can indeed spend the extra time anyway you want!

As to whether or not you will succeed, that is hard to tell, I agree. I would say that just because it worked for another student does not mean it will work for you. But good luck!!

[bhr]

I want to point out a couple things:

First, even if your funding comes at the university, rather than the department, level, your department is still likely the final say in whether it continues.

Are you actually on pace to finish your coursework on time? If you are in the humanities now, 2 courses/semester seems like a light load at the phd level, doesn't it? I would make sure that you are actually making satisfactory progress toward completing coursework on time, and your first round of exams.

Also, and someone else may be able to back me up here, but you could wind up with serious visa problems if you try to change programs like that. Your current visa is for your specific school and program, and you filed an intent to leave the country at the end of the program. If, when you decide it's time to move on, you apply for a new visa, there is a chance it could be denied  (since you didn't live up to the terms of the last one).

[TakeruK]

Also, and someone else may be able to back me up here, but you could wind up with serious visa problems if you try to change programs like that. Your current visa is for your specific school and program, and you filed an intent to leave the country at the end of the program. If, when you decide it's time to move on, you apply for a new visa, there is a chance it could be denied  (since you didn't live up to the terms of the last one).

I am not an expert in immigration/visas/statuses. But I can confirm that yes, if an international student changes their PhD program (and school), it means they will need new status. For example, my DS-2019 (for J-1 foreign student status; F-1 students would have a form I-20) is only valid for my Planetary Science PhD program at my school. However, there are processes in place to change your student status because you are changing your degree. Your school will work with you to get the proper approvals.

If you finish your first program (e.g. with a Masters) and then enroll in a brand new PhD program at a new school, I am pretty sure you will have to get a new status (I-20 or DS-2019). You can do this without leaving the United States as long as your new program begins within the time limit for your previous status (I believe it's something like a few months after you finish your first program, depending on F-1 vs. J-1 status). If you do not leave the United States, you do not need a new visa, just a new status. For those who don't know, visas are required for permission to enter, and status is required to permission to remain in the US for a specific purpose. 

Whether or not this would be a problem is hard to tell. When you first apply for F-1 or J-1 visa and/or status, your intention must be to leave the United States at the end of your academic program. However, you are allowed to change your mind if a new opportunity comes up! Your intention only must be to leave the US at the time of application/starting your program. For example, there are many international students who came to the US for undergraduate on F-1 status and then applied for and got into US graduate schools also on F-1 status. No problems there. The system is not set up to limit international students to only one degree, but to prevent international people from using student status as a way to gain permanent resident status.

I agree with bhr that if the OP does not finish the first program, then it may cause complications in getting the new status from the new school. But it's certainly not impossible, and changing your mind about what field you want to pursue is not against immigration policies. Overall, I think that being an international student will add additional steps/work but I think the main issues will be following the department/university policies while taking these extra courses!

[john_doe]

I know multiple instances when people changed their programs entirely without any visa issues. As was mentioned, school handles that. Anyway, this is the last thing that worries me now.

Edited August 22, 2015 by john_doe