To apply or not to apply

[henry lew]

I need some advice if I should apply for graduate school..

I always wanted to go to graduate school and be trained as a professional clinical psychologist particularly in the areas of helping others cope with chronic and terminal illnesses...But I can't make up my mind to apply or not to apply for the following reasons:

1) My dad been diagnosed with dementia two years ago and I am the main caregiver. He had told me to go and fulfill my dreams but I know that logically there is no way I can leave him. I have only an elder sister who has her own family and although she has said she will help to take care of my dad, she can't even handle a weekend when I need to go out to run errands and she looks after my dad. I had decided to postphoned my dreams... but my dad is fit as a fiddle physically, he does not have any illnesses besides dementia ... not even high blood pressure ... hence he may last for quite a while...

2) I am 37 this year.... already I am considered a matured student and I suspect my chances of getting in is slim,,, I had spent the last ten years postphoning my dreams as I was caregiving for my mum with cancer,,, she has pass on. ... part of me still holds on to the dream though I know it is hard.

3) I am from Asia, been to USA twice for work , Miami and Boston and love both times I was there. I interacted with clinical psychologists on both trips due to work and really learn much from them. The chances of me getting a sponsorship here is low and I am thinking the funding at grad school in USA can't cover all of the expenses as well... hence financially I may need to rent out my place back home to pay rent in the states if I am lucky enough to get into a program.

4) The reason why I want to get into grad school. I admit I don't really know. I know this may reflect really badly on me. But it is just a driving force within me that keep asking me to keep trying and trying. I have a masters in psychology and is working as a psychologist back home, but the training and standards here are way below that of the USA hence one of the reasons is I want to enhance my skills even further. Of course there are various ways to enhance my skills and is going to grad school to get a phd is not the only way, but with the paucity of supervision and training opportunities here, that's why I figured it may be better to just get trained further again. I do not expect to earn more money nor for job advancement, it is really purely to be better trained and pursue further research, which in some ways I can pursue at home here.... yet I still have the lingering thought to want to pursue my dream...

 

Should I give up?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Generic_Applicant]

You shouldn't.. in my opinion

Can't say much about your personal situation because I don't have a full understanding of your family but if you had a driving force within you that wants it, I would atleast give it a shot. You only regret things you don't do

[Oshawott]

2) I am 37 this year.... already I am considered a matured student and I suspect my chances of getting in is slim...

Don't let your age or international status stop you--I had a colleague in undergrad who changed his career path and chose to go to clinical psychology around your age, and he too was an international student in the US. Clinical Psychology is a practical field--even if there's biases towards recruiting fresh, young, undergrads, there's absolutely no reason you should be afraid to try and pursue a career as a clinical psychologist if your goal isn't academia. In terms of who you should talk to, while research fit is a given, have a look at the other people they've recruited into their labs. Some of the supervisors I looked at had labs with multiple mature grad students, so if your fear is age bias, then apply to supervisors who clearly don't exhibit this.

3) I am from Asia, been to USA twice for work , Miami and Boston and love both times I was there. I interacted with clinical psychologists on both trips due to work and really learn much from them. The chances of me getting a sponsorship here is low and I am thinking the funding at grad school in USA can't cover all of the expenses as well... hence financially I may need to rent out my place back home to pay rent in the states if I am lucky enough to get into a program

Consider Canadian grad schools as well--the school I go to, while having higher fees for international students (though as I understand it, those fees are still lower than some domestic tuition costs in the US), they will adjust their funding packages accordingly so that international students will receive more money to offset the larger tuition costs.

1) My dad been diagnosed with dementia two years ago and I am the main caregiver. He had told me to go and fulfill my dreams but I know that logically there is no way I can leave him. I have only an elder sister who has her own family and although she has said she will help to take care of my dad, she can't even handle a weekend when I need to go out to run errands and she looks after my dad. I had decided to postphoned my dreams... but my dad is fit as a fiddle physically, he does not have any illnesses besides dementia ... not even high blood pressure ... hence he may last for quite a while...

...I had spent the last ten years postphoning my dreams as I was caregiving for my mum with cancer,,, she has pass on. ... part of me still holds on to the dream though I know it is hard.

I wanted to address this point last--it was actually the reason I made this account because I sympathize with what you're going through. I had to make a similar decision as well, though my situation is certainly not the same as yours. My mom also told me not to worry about trying to support her and my dad, and to pursue my dreams. Her rationale is that she did not want to become a burden to me. I imagine that your dad feels the same way, but with dementia, I can see why you are very concerned.

At the end of the day, what you will have to ask yourself is what will you regret more:

If you postpone your dreams further to take care of your father, will you regret it? Even subconsciously, do you want to see your parents as the reason you didn't fufill your dreams? Would you regret the thought that your father might think he was burdensome to you?

Or, if you go to graduate school, will you regret not taking care of your father? Would you regret not being there?

To give another person's perspective, my undergraduate supervisor told me that before going to undergrad, he was the primary caregiver to his grandparents (despite having living parents and older siblings). They encouraged him to go to college and he did. His grandparents were put into a home, and they died. It was very upsetting, but he knew his grandparents wanted more for him so he honored their wishes.

Your father wants more for you, and I am certain your mother did as well, but its definitely not clear-cut what you should do, as this decision is made on a case-by-case basis. The two cases I presented to you (both mine and my undergrad supervisor's) resulted in us going to grad school--unfortunately, in a forum like the grad cafe, you're probably not going to find many people who chose to postpone their education indefinitely because the users drawn here are those already attending or planning to attend graduate school.

And regarding your older sister--maybe its worth talking to her and laying out how you feel? I am not sure of your relationship with her, but if she' understanding, then she may agree to care for your father, after all, you have already cared for your mother.

My final advice is to seek more wisdom and perspectives from others regarding this issue, however don't let things like age or being an international student stop you. There are people who are international students who are sufficiently funded--you just have to be selective in which schools you apply to. Even if its difficult to get into a school with full funding, once they accept you, they will fund you. These schools won't waste an interview on someone who they can't afford to keep.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Oshawott

[khunconan]

What program do you want to apply to (e.g., clinical, social, etc.)? Do you want to be a researcher or practitioner? How much research experience do you have? Do you have posters or publications under your belt? Most of the Ph.D. programs in the U.S. are very research-oriented so you need to have a very strong research background. 

Applying to Ph.D. programs can be excruciating. You need to have realistic goal and plan. Only a driving force is not enough to get you into a Ph.D. program in this country.

[Oshawott]

What program do you want to apply to (e.g., clinical, social, etc.)? Do you want to be a researcher or practitioner? How much research experience do you have? Do you have posters or publications under your belt? Most of the Ph.D. programs in the U.S. are very research-oriented so you need to have a very strong research background. 

Applying to Ph.D. programs can be excruciating. You need to have realistic goal and plan. Only a driving force is not enough to get you into a Ph.D. program in this country.

 

 

4) The reason why I want to get into grad school. I admit I don't really know. I know this may reflect really badly on me. But it is just a driving force within me that keep asking me to keep trying and trying. I have a masters in psychology and is working as a psychologist back home, but the training and standards here are way below that of the USA hence one of the reasons is I want to enhance my skills even further. Of course there are various ways to enhance my skills and is going to grad school to get a phd is not the only way, but with the paucity of supervision and training opportunities here, that's why I figured it may be better to just get trained further again. I do not expect to earn more money nor for job advancement, it is really purely to be better trained and pursue further research, which in some ways I can pursue at home here.... yet I still have the lingering thought to want to pursue my dream

Honestly, I think this is a good enough reason here. You can argue in your SOP that your driving force is to better the field of clinical psychology in your home country. You wish to train and return home, and use those skills not only to better help your patients/clients, but to also develop and improve the standards of practice in your community.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Oshawott

[khunconan]

 

Honestly, I think this is a good enough reason here. You can argue in your SOP that your driving force is to better the field of clinical psychology in your home country. You wish to train and return home, and use those skills not only to better help your patients/clients, but to also develop and improve the standards of practice in your community.

Without knowing the characteristics and emphases of the programs, it is quite hard to say what would be a good enough reason from the admission committee's perspective. This reason sounds great if OP will be applying to Psy.D. or any program with scientist-practitioner model. If OP wants to go to research-oriented programs, that reason is certainly not enough. Actually, saying you want to better the field in your own country or help people is one of the kisses of death in graduate school application. Of course, it can be your motivation for entering the field in the first place, but don't use it as a main goal for pursuing a Ph.D. because the adcom might believe that you are applying to the wrong place. Instead, you need to emphasize what shapes your research interest, what you did in the past that strengthens your interest and goal, what research questions you want to examine during your Ph.D., and so on. Generally speaking, the adcom in most research-oriented programs wants to be sure that you are really into research and have enough skills to work for your supervisor. Even if OP wants to apply for programs with less emphasis on research, he or she may still need to talk about his or her related work or clinical experiences to convince the adcom that he or she is a qualified candidate. Expressing strong passion or driving force is absolutely great, but still isn't enough if it doesn't come with tangible experiences and skills. However, it can be a completely different story if OP doesn't care about getting into a fully-funded program.

Again, it is really hard to give any helpful advice with the only information we have now. For example, if OP wants to do research, has a ton of research experience and wants to go to a research-oriented program, he or she can focus more on family problems (e.g., who will take care of his or her dad) and less on the application itself. If OP wants to go to research-oriented program but doesn't have much research experience, he or she needs to strengthen his or her profile AND cope with family and financial problems at the same time. I didn't mean it is impossible to do or OP should give up his or her dream. He or she just needs to evaluate the situation realistically.

By the way, I forgot to mention in the earlier post that OP shouldn't  be discouraged by his or her age at all. I know that people in many Asian cultures believe that age 30+ is too old for studying (they are supposed to have a nice family or be settled financially). However, I don't think age will be an issue here. In fact, being older means having more work/life experience, which is considered valuable for many Americans. 

Good luck! :-)

Edited September 23, 2015 by khunconan

[Oshawott]

Actually, saying you want to better the field in your own country or help people is one of the kisses of death in graduate school application. Of course, it can be your motivation for entering the field in the first place, but don't use it as a main goal for pursuing a Ph.D. because the adcom might believe that you are applying to the wrong place.

I guess I should qualify my statement here as well. While the university I go to *is* research intensive, my supervisor and the school in general has a strong focus on translating research into real world practice (or at least that's what the school tries to brand itself as doing) so while something like that *would* be a kiss of death in most programs I got a pass because I matched the school's philosophy (honestly debated whether to add a line like that or not).

So, you should definitely look at the culture of the school as well, since while there are broad guidelines of what does and does not work in a statement, those guidelines are generalized across schools so some guidelines are more applicable than others. It goes back to the whole research fit--since you're going to be an international student, you'll not only have to show that you have equal (if not better) credentials than local applicants, but you'll have to "fit" better as well. One of my rejections to a school in the U.S. (I was an international applicant) was because the faculty had trouble relating to me outside of my research interests, so while my credentials were good enough to make it up to the final interview stage, the fit wasn't there.

But related to the kiss of death above, ad coms may also just not be biased in training a practitioner (if that's the route you're going) who will just go and leave the country, since that's four years worth of resources being sent elsewhere. I don't think its as big a problem if you plan to move as a researcher given the job market....

Edited September 23, 2015 by Oshawott

[khunconan]

Yes, that's why I said we need more information about OP's goal and interest. At this stage I didn't say what OP should or shouldn't do. As I mentioned earlier, it depends much on the characteristics and emphases of the programs. Your SOP fitted perfectly with your current program because the program's emphasis is not only research (it is more balanced). You are right that we should look at the culture of the school, but we don't even know what kind of programs OP wants to apply for. It is too hard to give a helpful advice given what we know now.   

[henry lew]

Hello all,

 

Thanks a lot for the advice and pointers thus far. I am actually looking at PHD programs in clinical psychology along the lines of the scientist practitioner model. In terms of research experience I must say it is not impressive and I don't even feel confident to be a TA. I have two posters presentations at conferences one in 2010, another in 2014. I have nil publications. I do have 4-5 research projects going on at work. Some are pilot experimental studies, some cross sectional studies that looked at prevalence, and I do have one qualitative study as well. I am only more familiar with regression models regrettably. The thing is design, ethics and data collection stage of these projects are already done, and some of them I have even run the analysis... it's just the dilemma that is making me drag my feet and undecided if I should go ahead, as much as I want to pursue graduate school. I am thinking if I decided to give it a shot, to apply next year instead but to use the remaining year to get these research published. End of the year have been invited to speak at a conference, not sure how much that will help.

 

Background wise, my GRE was not fantastic it was 158 verbal, 157 quantitative. Am planning to retake it again. My GPA is only 3.4 for my undergrad psych and 3.0 for my Masters. Clinically I have been trained formally in mindfulness based cognitive therapy and had completed the teacher training as well. Am half way through EMDR training. An area I would like to research on would be the clinical applications of autobiographical memory, how it relates to a person's self identity, well being, health behaviors etc. I admit that my ideas are still rather vague as a research area.  And I guess I am rather unrealistic as I had just focus on 4 schools, though I have not done anything to contact the PIs. I was looking at University of Oregon @ Eugene in USA, University of York in Canada, University of Toronto in Canada. And the dream school and person to work with which I think is beyond reach would be at Duke University.

 

I do feel that I may have much difficulty if I were to go into a clinical program, as much as I would like to, as I would really need to work doubly hard not just on the course but learning the culture. I remember when I was in Boston 2 years ago, it took me a while to understand and appreciate how much it means to the people there to go watch the games. 

 

Most importantly I am still very much undecided... and I guess I need to really think hard about it and come to a decision as being in a state of flux does not help at all if I am to make any applications as I am unclear myself as well. 

 

Just like to know your opinions, please do be brutally honest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

[ihatechoosingusernames]

Most importantly I am still very much undecided... and I guess I need to really think hard about it and come to a decision as being in a state of flux does not help at all if I am to make any applications as I am unclear myself as well. 

 

Just like to know your opinions, please do be brutally honest.   

Here's my opinion as a second time applicant - don't let the people here on GradCafe decide for you. This message board can be one of the most brutal places for feedback, and some of the negative feedback is completely unwarranted. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I'd regret not applying in the long run. There's a decent chance that because of my GRE and GPA I'll be cut from the get go again, but I know that I'd rather try and have the school reject me than take the advice of another applicant on whether or not I should apply. Just look at the results from years past  - some people have perfect GRE/GPA and were rejected. Others have lower scores than you do and have been accepted because of their life experiences or their fit with their faculty mentors. There are so many factors that come into play, and you won't be able to control many of them.  Worst case? You try, don't get in, and are in the same place you're in now. If you have the monetary means, I'd say go for it. You're obviously passionate about psychology.  

[khunconan]

I think your profile looks great, especially for those programs whose emphasis is on scientist-practitioner model. It seems like you have a lot of clinical experiences which should make you competitive for those programs. Your research experience should be strong enough for non-research heavy programs as well. GPA and GRE may be your major concerns, but if you apply wisely you should still be fine. As ihatechoosingusernames said, many people got into a Ph.D. program with even less scores. To be honest, your GPA and GRE might not pass a cut-off for Duke and Toronto, but if they are your dream school then why don't give it a try? Just be sure to apply to some safe schools too. Do you also consider Psy.D.? There are many funded Psy.D. programs that focus on both research and practice.

I agree with ihatechoosingusernames that you shouldn't let anyone decide for you. We may be able to give you our opinion, but at the end you are the one making a decision. It seems to me that your biggest concern is not your chance of being accepted per se. You are undecided rather because you don't know if it's worth trying. Although many people here have assured you that it's worth trying, I understand why it is still hard for you. To leave your decent job and family to pursue a Ph.D. in another country is obviously a major life change. It may not be much a big deal for the young, but I know it can be so scary for older people like you, especially when your life has been settled. Going to Ph.D. means you need to step out of your comfort zone, and the fact that you need to leave your ill dad makes it much more terrifying. I think you need to first figure out why you want a Ph.D. You said you don't know why, right? Well, you should take time thinking about it. It is very hard to decide whether a Ph.D. is worth fighting for without even knowing why you want it so much. You may feel your life would never been fulfilled if you don't get a Ph.D. but is it really true? I'm not trying to point out that it may not be true. But you need to be really sure that the degree is your absolute goal. For example, many people wanted to get a Ph.D. so that they could look at themselves as a more worthy person, but actually a degree is not the root of their conflict. Thus, in my opinion, it is very important to at least understand your own passion. If you really love the field or want to be more specialized, I think it is a good enough reason and you should go for it. Just knowing your passion is valid may help you overcome your fear and uncertainty.

If you really want my opinion on whether you should apply, I personally think it doesn't hurt to just apply. You may get rejected but at least you will have experience for the next round (especially if you can make it to the interview). Just don't be let down if you can't get in anywhere. However, applying next year when you will be more prepared may be a good idea too. Just delaying application (to become more competitive) doesn't mean you are abandoning your dream.

P.S. Many programs in your list are heavily research-oriented, aren't they? Be sure to check if the programs' emphasis really matches yours.    

 

Edited September 24, 2015 by khunconan

[Jay's Brain]

Henry, I can't really give input on your situation as it is unique to yourself. Ultimately, it's your passion and ambition to do something that will guide you through it. Your experience and your humble approach is enough to show that you at least have the mindset to pursue this career goal, and maybe become a fantastic psychologist. Do what's best for you, and remember to never lose confidence in yourself. I myself have learned from experience that hard work and perseverance always pays off.

In terms of your schools of interest, I may be able to help you with question that come up for the University of Toronto and York University. Your research interest on autobiographical memory, in particular, is something that I also have a lot of interest in. If you do have questions, feel free to send me a message!

I wish you the best of luck with everything!