IRS and ITIN docs

[random_grad]

The IRS asked me for documents to support my W-7 application for ITIN, namely, something to prove identity. They want original or copy certified by "the agency that issued or maintains the original records". The document needs to have a photo, signature, all that stuff. In my case, it would be the passport (I do not drive). Now, I won't send the original passport or whatever for obvious reasons; and the Canadian consulate does not do that kind of certifications - they recommend using a local notary. Which I did. But this did not satisfy the IRS. The passport is all I have as ID, so I called the IRS and they said that's just how it is - I need to send in the passport, wait for 2 months processing time and get it back. Whatever happens if police ask me for ID - they don't care. Travels? Liquor store? You're dreaming baby.

How did you go about getting your ITIN? What kind of documents satisfied them? (My school has been utterly useless in that regard).

Edited December 28, 2015 by random_grad

[TakeruK]

If you are in the US now, go to the DMV and get a state ID card. You'll just need to prove you are legally present in the US (I-20, DS-2019, etc.) 

Or, send them your Canadian provincial ID card (if you have one). I definitely would prefer not to send them my passport either (although when I got my passport renewed while in the US, I had to send away my passport too....I felt better that I was sending it to Passport Canada though instead of the IRS).

[random_grad]

29 minutes ago, TakeruK said:

go to the DMV and get a state ID card

interesting! I didn't know about that! thank you so much! I'll do that.

my Canadian provincial ID has a corner cut because it's a special ID for non-drivers, and I've had issues before that U.S. people would think it's invalid because of the cut corner because in the U.S. drivers' licenses get invalidated by cutting the corner >.< I mean, you are right, I should have sent that. It didn't occur to me in the midst of the busy first semester (and also because my school assured me that a notarized copy would suffice.) I just want to do just one more sending that would definitely work XD

Edited December 29, 2015 by random_grad

[random_grad]

oh, I see, to get a state ID I need to get a denial letter for SSN. I think I've seen this mentioned on this forum before. Seems like a useful document to have. This is getting Kafkaesque. I think I will just try my chances with my cropped-corner Canadian ID. Should have thought about this earlier. Collective hivemind works wonders!

Edited December 29, 2015 by random_grad

[TakeruK]

16 hours ago, random_grad said:

oh, I see, to get a state ID I need to get a denial letter for SSN. I think I've seen this mentioned on this forum before. Seems like a useful document to have. This is getting Kafkaesque. I think I will just try my chances with my cropped-corner Canadian ID. Should have thought about this earlier. Collective hivemind works wonders!

Sorry to hear that you have to go through all of this red tape I guess I was lucky that because I work for RA/TA purposes, I got a letter from my school that allowed me to get a SSN (but it's a SSN "for employment purposes only" not credit/benefits, so I still have to put big deposits down on utilities and such).

A state ID / driver's license is super useful. I use it as my main form of ID whenever I'm in the US and everyone just assumes I'm an American, which makes things a lot easier. Especially for things like buying alcohol---I don't have to point out where my birthdate is on my BC driver license! And some places want to / prefer to see an American agency issued ID, for whatever reason.

I can share some stories if it makes you feel better: the DMV didn't want to look at my J-1 status forms when issuing my driver license. I told them that I think they needed that info---they said no thanks. A month later, I got a letter from the DMV saying that they can't issue my driver license until I send them a copy of my DS-2019! Also, my spouse is on J-2 status which allows my spouse to gain work authorization. However, one of the criteria to qualify for work authorization is that we need to prove that we do not need my spouse's income in order to survive, but that it would be for fun things only. We had to write a letter with a budget showing that my income is enough for necessities and that my spouse's income would be for things like "vacations and eating out" or other luxuries. 

[random_grad]

On 12/29/2015 at 0:21 PM, TakeruK said:

We had to write a letter with a budget showing that my income is enough for necessities and that my spouse's income would be for things like "vacations and eating out" or other luxuries. 

lol yes, I've seen that somewhere

 

On 12/29/2015 at 0:21 PM, TakeruK said:

work for RA/TA purposes

this tells me that when I will start doing so I will have to go through the IRS process all over again. I've seen some insane bureaucracies in my life, and this so far is one of them

[fuzzylogician]

35 minutes ago, random_grad said:

this tells me that when I will start doing so I will have to go through the IRS process all over again. I've seen some insane bureaucracies in my life, and this so far is one of them

Things might have changes since when I started school, but back in the day being a TA/RA was insufficient to get a SSN, and most international students I knew who were on an F-1 visa didn't. I also recall that students on a J-1 could get a SSN a lot more easily, and the ones who were on that visa all did (though I don't know what they had to do). At my school, at least, the relevant people who issue the SSN (IRS? I don't recall) would be on campus once or twice a year, so you could do the whole procedure on campus instead of going to whatever government office you'd have to visit. I was working for pay for my department and that allowed me to get a SSN, and that's what I did. It was very low hassle, but I suppose that's really only because my department and school were so supportive.

[TakeruK]

When I was at the Social Security Administration office to get my SSN (it's about a 15 minute walk from campus), they originally tried to process me as a F-1 student so I think it's both possible and common for F-1 students to get SSNs. To get one via the school, the international student program officer has to record our entry / arrival at the school in SEVIS and then give us a letter to take to the Social Security Administration office stating that we are eligible for a SSN. Waiting in line at the SSA office wasn't fun (very little instructions, confusing forms, 1+ hour wait as the office was very busy with people there for other social security businesses that seemed a lot more important, e.g. applying for/collecting benefits). But it was a one time thing and my card arrived in the mail 5 days later without issue.

Most international students I know at my school have SSNs and most of them are F-1. I wonder why there is a such a difference. From my experience with my school, I was under the impression that it's standard practice to get that SSN letter as part of international student check-in, but from others on this forum, I soon learned that it's not the case!

In theory, all F-1 and J-1 students are authorized to work in the US (on campus). So, therefore, we all meet the minimum requirements to be eligible for a SSN, I think, however I guess it's still up to the school whether or not to make the SSN application part of everyone's check-in procedures. It seems like a lot of things are school dependent, for example, I met all the requirements for J-1 status but U Arizona refused to sponsor me on that status as a grad student. So, for your specific situation, maybe consulting your international students program staff (if you haven't already) can give you specific answers. In particular, you might want to ask if you are able to get a SSN, because it seems like getting a SSN will be more useful to you than a ITIN.

You may also want to just get the SSN on your own. See also: https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10096.pdf ; one advantage of this method is that you get to bring your original documents, e.g. passport, directly to the SSA office and they will inspect them and then return them to you immediately (after reading that PDF, I don't think the letter from my school was strictly necessary, but just helps confirm that I have the correct status). Also, keep in mind that you don't have to actually be working or have a job in order to qualify for a SSN---you just need to be eligible for such work (for example, J-2 spouses with employment authorization are able to apply for a SSN right away, and this is what my spouse did, months before they actually started working). But then maybe applying for a SSN with a W-7 ITIN application in progress is not the best thing to do (I have no idea, not an expert!). Just some more thoughts, sorry that they are turning out to be potentially more confusing than helpful.

[fuzzylogician]

17 minutes ago, TakeruK said:

When I was at the Social Security Administration office to get my SSN (it's about a 15 minute walk from campus), they originally tried to process me as a F-1 student so I think it's both possible and common for F-1 students to get SSNs. To get one via the school, the international student program officer has to record our entry / arrival at the school in SEVIS and then give us a letter to take to the Social Security Administration office stating that we are eligible for a SSN. ... 

Also, keep in mind that you don't have to actually be working or have a job in order to qualify for a SSN---you just need to be eligible for such work

FWIW at my school they wouldn't issue you this letter unless you had an on-campus job other than TA/RA, so I guess this is up to the school's discretion. I've also heard of schools refusing to issue students J-1 visas even though they would have been eligible (and said students hence opting to accept another school's offer, so their spouses could get a EAD and work, which you can only do with the J but not F visa).

[random_grad]

On 1/2/2016 at 8:34 PM, fuzzylogician said:

instead of going

oh, I'd rather go and spend the day there than send my official documents by mail to another state. The lady on the phone said I can't just "walk in and flash my ID" - they need to keep for 2 months "because it's the procedure".

 

On 1/2/2016 at 0:49 AM, fuzzylogician said:

refusing to issue students J-1 visas

now that's just so uncool of them!

 

On 1/2/2016 at 0:29 AM, TakeruK said:

W-7 ITIN application in progress

they've already denied it lol. I'll have to file another one. I don't think I should start a whole new procedure with SSN, because it's gonna be April soon and I don't wanna end up paying interest if I happen to owe money on my taxes.

Edited January 3, 2016 by random_grad

[random_grad]

just an update if anyone ever happens to be in the same situation:

just got the official denial letter (before, it was just from the words of the operator on the phone). And now I see that there is a reason why I dismissed the Canadian ID option back in October: they want something to show international status (F-1). And that, only a passport can show. Otherwise, I need to submit Canadian ID + local state ID.

So at this point I'm applying for SSN to get a denial letter.

Next step will be applying for state ID.

And then I will send my Canadian ID + state ID over and hope I can file my taxes on time.

 

in this story, I'm just flabbergasted by the incompetence of folks at my school's international office who set up a special application session for ITIN, where several people looked my application over, and who, upon initial rejection of photocopies, said that notarized copies of passport should be fine. I even asked them: does this happen often to students? - Oh yes, all the time! ...I mean, I'd expect they'd figure something's not right with the way the advise us to submit our ITIN app if this happens to students often. so disappointed.

 

also, I will now always recommend getting a state ID as soon as possible, for non-drivers.

thank you,  TakeruK and fuzzylogician for keeping me company in this situation! happy new year XD

Edited January 4, 2016 by random_grad

[fuzzylogician]

FYI you can get an automatic 6-month extension on doing your taxes by filing some form before the April 15 deadline. See here: https://www.irs.gov/uac/Extension-of-Time-To-File-Your-Tax-Return. I think you can do that without having your SSN/ITIN number. Good luck with your ITIN quest!

Also don't get me started on ISO incompetence. At some point I needed a new I-20 because I ran out of signature space. There was obviously some mistake made somewhere along the process (never did find out what it was), because once that happened, for two and a half years--until I graduated--I would get sent to secondary inspection EVERY TIME I passed through an airport. And this continued for almost another whole year AFTER I graduated and wasn't even on a F-1 status because they failed to report something correctly to immigration. And then there was the time when they signed the form with the WRONG YEAR, which of course I didn't notice, so I got caught without an updated signature even though I'd actually gotten a new one like 2 weeks prior to that trip.  I mean, come on!

[TakeruK]

Good luck! Also, don't forget your Form I-20 along with your passport to show valid F-1 status. I think the full set of things that indicate valid F-1 status is the I-20, your passport (which usually, but not always, has a stamp with your date of entry and the status of your entry in it---don't worry if they didn't stamp it though) and your I-94. You might have gotten a paper I-94 (page stapled to your passport) or it might be electronic, in which case you don't have to do anything since US Immigration can look it up with your passport number (you can also look it up here: https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/consent.html;jsessionid=vsvqWJbWNL8MK8TrPyy8qfJ5xjrsl1pG4YrJT6qHjCDJwgC5Kr2T!-810262144)

Also, if you are worried about taxes and interest---you can also check your paystubs and see if they have already deducted any taxes. My school deducts 14% for all international students, so it's always a refund at tax time, not overpayment. So filing late would mean you don't get your refund until you file, but at least you won't have to pay interest (not sure if there is a penalty though). And if you earned less than $10,000 in the US in tax year 2015, there is a Canada-US tax treaty that exempts you from any US tax at all (so, earning $9,999 vs. $10,000 is a big difference!)

Oh, and if you have not filed taxes in the US yet, you might want to know as Non-Resident Aliens, we cannot file electronically, we must mail in a paper copy! Luckily, as long as the return is postmarked by April 15th, then you won't be late. But just wanted to give you a heads up just in case

And, after you complete your federal tax return, you will need to also file your state tax return (if you live in a state with state taxes). Unlike Canada, where you file the provincial and federal tax returns together, you have to do it separately in the states. Also, tax software doesn't do state taxes for international students (unless you pay for a special version), so be prepared to do it by hand (some schools, like mine, offer workshops where you fill it all in together). Again, just giving you extra info so that you can plan enough time to do everything prior to April 15, if this is your first US tax return. (**however, if it is your first year, then you probably only received US income for a few months and you will be likely way below the minimum income required to file a state tax return, so you might not have to bother with that this year).

Okay---final paragraph I promise---while I'm giving random Canadian tax tips, I want to also say you can claim the tuition "paid" in the US as Canadian Education credits! See: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/tl11a/README.html This applies even if you never see the tuition billed to your account (i.e. covered by a tuition waiver). Get your school's bursar/registrar/etc. office to fill out the TL-11A and file it with your Canadian taxes to get Canadian educational tax credit which you can use against future Canadian taxes. It can add up to a lot so hopefully saving a few thousand dollars in the future is worth all of this hassle!

[random_grad]

On 1/4/2016 at 9:40 PM, fuzzylogician said:

secondary inspection EVERY TIME I passed through an airport

oh no, the pain! that's just terrible! D: sorry to hear that.

I'll try to get the extension as you suggest, thanks a bunch!

 

On 1/4/2016 at 9:52 PM, TakeruK said:

do it by hand

yeah well I've been doing my taxes by hand for the last few years, I actually enjoy that. but it does seem like this year won't be like others.

On 1/4/2016 at 9:52 PM, TakeruK said:

Canadian Education credits

OMG, this is gold! I'll soon have enough education credits for the rest of my life.

 

a brief update: I got the SSN denial letter immediately, which was pretty sweet. but when getting a state ID, they didn't accept my national Canadian ID with the cut corner. "not on the list" , they said. but they let it go, so it should be OK.

Edited January 6, 2016 by random_grad