Question for all of you

[ChrisTOEFert]

Hi I am a follower of this forum every year around this time.  I'm on my 2nd or 3rd account since I can't for the life of me remember my username or password from years previous; anyways, I am digressing.  I just have a few questions for the populous and I am fully aware I am probably going to get downvoted all to hell and back but this has been nagging me for a couple of years and I've finally decided to ask them.

1) Why does a PhD program in the U.S. last so freaking long?  I applied to a school in California that I was interested in going to but a few posters on the results page were talking about 6+ year PhDs!  That is insane to me!  Is it because you end up with a terminal Masters degree as well once you graduate?  I asked my potential supervisor the same question, told him I was going to be out in 4 years flat, maybe 5 if I hit a research hiccup, I just don't have that much time to commit to a program that may or may not help me in my future in a dwindling job market.  In Canada, it's usually a 2 year Master's degree, and a 4-5 year PhD, but usually 4 if you are willing to be dedicated to the program and stay motivated.  Or, sometimes if you know you really want to attend a PhD in your Master's university, you do a one year MA and then get promoted to the PhD program for 5 years.  My potential POI couldn't answer the question, just saying that the way the courses and requirements were set, that he had never seen anybody graduate in less than 5-5.5 years and even then it was very rare.

2) Why do so many of you apply to so many programs?  Looking at a lot of signatures and I see sometimes 10+ applications pending.  I understand that my field of choice has very few locations in where I can study, so my personal experience is a little bit skewed.  However, applying to grad school is expensive (~$100 per app), and I see a lot of results boards saying "not surprised, poor fit/extreme long shot" etc.  I understand applying to your dream school, everybody does it and should have that one reach they are going to jump at.  Why all the others?  Surely there aren't 15 profs in 15 different states/locations that are exactly interested in what you want to study? In certain fields is it not common to send a feeler e-mail out to a prof at a school and see if they are willing to take on new students and if your project would be a good fit in their lab/department/research interests?  To come full circle, I would never apply to a school where I either received no response about my inquiry, was told that there is nothing really there for me, or was just interested in the school because it is said school and I would never fit in.  Case in point: I was interested in attending Harvard in a certain ancient DNA lab with a very prominent prof.  He emailed me back and told me not to bother because he only takes students who are extremely proficient in bioinformatics, a strength I definitely do not have.  Even if he was lying, why would I waste my money on applying there just for him to think to himself "why am I wasting my time reading this app when I told him there is no spot for his skills (or lack thereof in this case) here"?  To extend that, how do you ever make a choice if multiple are presented to you?  What if you got into all 10?  What if you only got into 1 and it was your absolute lowest ranked "safety" school, would you reject it and chance it all again next year or would you attend and wonder what if I had just waited one more year and applied to x, y, and z again for the next 6 years?  

3) Do all of you really want to go to grad school?  Like really? Or is it because it is the next logical step? I personally don't have an answer to this myself.  I did fine in my MSc, and don't feel like I want to quit and hide under a blanket fort yet.  So do I really want to do a PhD?  I'm not sure, but I sure as hell can stomach a 3 year program over a 5+ year one!  So that is why I decided to attend my choice.  I see this on Reddit and here a lot too, why do you low GPA students that admittedly had no motivation for your entire undergrad suddenly feel like you have to go to grad school?  I've seen a few threads where a 2.5-2.9 GPA (in their major) student wants nothing more than to go to X school, and I totally admire the drive, I too was a confused undergrad, but I did well in my major and found my stride in my 3rd year.  So why the sudden change of heart?  Why do you feel that a grad school situation, where you are pressured to do well in exams, complete complex and sometimes unrealistic project deadlines, publish, present at conferences, fight tooth and nail for a below the poverty line salary, and do it all with a smile and asking how much higher you want your POI to make you jump?  Why go straight into a PhD (which someone pointed out to me has a very low finish percentage...but I don't know where they know their stats and they didn't cite their source  ) when a Master's degree seems like the best step so you can test the waters of grad school without the massive time commitment and soul-crushing (supposedly) atmosphere?

I did not do this to attack anyone, so if you feel like I have personally slighted you, that is not my intention.  I do not have anyone I know who fits any of these criteria so I am genuinely curious.  Thank you for your respectful and mature responses to any/all of these questions.  

Edited February 26, 2016 by ChrisTOEFert

[Nirvik]

@ChrisTOEFert I personally think that this is a good question, as I have been asking this to myself a lot. After all attending a PhD program and being successful in it is no piece of cake. So, I would start by answering your questions in my own opinion.

46 minutes ago, ChrisTOEFert said:

1) Why does a PhD program in the U.S. last so freaking long?

From what I have learnt so far regarding the PhD programs, they do take 5 to 5.5 years because of the norms set up by the university and I would say that it's a good duration for any PhD candidate to perform research and develop his/her research skills and be able to defend his/her thesis. Most professors claim (as seen in Quora) that PhD students actually become proper researchers starting third year. The two years of Terminal Masters is more like a revision of your undergraduate studies with some added extensions. So to learn and master the tools of trade in research, it is usually suitable to spend the 5-5.5 years in grad school. Well, that's my opinion. Every student has his/her own rate of learning. But then there are those exceptional ones who can perform state of the art research work and become a fine independent researcher in no time. So the whole point behind having a 5 to 5.5 years of PhD program is actually to learn and master your research skills and develop yourself as a successful independent researcher.

46 minutes ago, ChrisTOEFert said:

2) Why do so many of you apply to so many programs?

I applied to 11 programs. So why did I apply to so many programs? 

1. The first reason would be to increase my odds of getting into a PhD program. (Yes, it's the honest answer. Anybody would do it.)
2. The second reason is it actually allowed me to evolve my ideas of what I would like to learn. The first few schools that I went for involved machine learning and parallel processing. I could hardly find any faculty doing both. As I researched about the various programs and learnt about what the professors actually did, I learnt about how I can expand my thoughts on doing research. I learnt about Vision systems identifying human actions in a video systems. So my ideas on the applications of machine learning evolved and brought me to my current potential research area - computers in cancer treatment. It's what ended up getting me an interview.
3. It never hurts to have a safe school and to have an ambition school at the same time. Life works in mysterious ways and so does grad admissions.

So, if I get into a top school, that would be great news for me. Since I have met my perfect match in Oregon State and my potential adviser thinks the same, it would be a shame not to get in. And even if I get to a safe low ranked school, I would probably give my go for it, because what matters to me more is what I learn in the program. If I have chosen the program, then there should definitely be some credibility when it comes to compatible research interests. So even a low ranked school can teach me something. As long as I learn about my field of interest, I don't care where I am. But yes, just getting into a low ranked school would put a question in my Visa officer's mind when he questions me. But then again, VOs are equally nuts as the people from the admission committee.

46 minutes ago, ChrisTOEFert said:

3) Do all of you really want to go to grad school?  Like really? Or is it because it is the next logical step?

I have always had a knack from computers and I am like a total sucker for it. I still remember my days as a kid when I would somehow steal the power cable to my desktop PC that my dad used to hide because I spent too much time on it. I got some pretty nice beatings because of that. So yeah, I am dead set in learning about computers and AI and using them to save lives. Now what better way could there be than using a state of the art system to find a possible cure to a disease that is incurable so far? So it's pretty much what life showed me. And yeah, I did mess around for the first 2 years in my undergraduate. Paid no attention to grades, but yeah spent hours on the internet trying to find a topic to work on for no apparent reason. It's how I found about Deep learning in the first place. I got serious with my studies starting 3rd year and kept a First Class while graduating and yeah, I had backlogs. But my final year projects were all novel works. That's when I realized that I am bound to be a researcher. Nothing else can keep me sane. So research it is and what better place is there to learn about research than the US, where computers practically took birth.

So all in all, yeah, I really wanted to go to grad school. Research is the life I chose and grad school is the one place where I can make it happen.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Nirvik

[blubed]

1. It's been my experience that these schools post the average time to completion for a degree. Some of their students take a leave of absence because of personal reasons, take extra time to develop grants or additional publications, maybe they changed mentors or research projects. A school I visited recently had some students that left in 5 years and some in 7. It depends on many factors. Also, whether a program offers a terminal masters is very variable.

 

2. Clinical psychology programs have an acceptance rate of about 1-2%. So I'd be pretty foolish to apply to just a couple of schools knowing that. I applied to 17 programs across the country, and yes, they are all doing research that applies to my interests. Is your topic of interest so narrow that you can only think of one or two applicable programs? I like to keep an open mind even within my specialty area. I have two acceptances and am anticipating at least one more. I've made a spreadsheet comparing them and then I'll be meeting with mentors with help deciding.

3. It's really presumptuous to suggest that for every career path that a masters is a best way to start. It's not for my long-term career interests. If you've done your research for your particular field, given your particular career interests, then surely you'll come to a conclusion about graduate school. That conclusion won't be the same for everyone and you should be respectful of that. You aren't willing to commit 5 years to a program, but I am. So I could ask, why even go to grad school when it doesn't sound like it's something you really want? But I wouldn't because different strokes for different folks. Do what works for you and don't worry about everyone else. I doubt they're worried about you.

[ChrisTOEFert]

25 minutes ago, Nirvik said:

@ChrisTOEFert I personally think that this is a good question, as I have been asking this to myself a lot. After all attending a PhD program and being successful in it is no piece of cake. So, I would start by answering your questions in my own opinion.

From what I have learnt so far regarding the PhD programs, they do take 5 to 5.5 years because of the norms set up by the university and I would say that it's a good duration for any PhD candidate to perform research and develop his/her research skills and be able to defend his/her thesis. Most professors claim (as seen in Quora) that PhD students actually become proper researchers starting third year. The two years of Terminal Masters is more like a revision of your undergraduate studies with some added extensions. So to learn and master the tools of trade in research, it is usually suitable to spend the 5-5.5 years in grad school. Well, that's my opinion. Every student has his/her own rate of learning. But then there are those exceptional ones who can perform state of the art research work and become a fine independent researcher in no time. So the whole point behind having a 5 to 5.5 years of PhD program is actually to learn and master your research skills and develop yourself as a successful independent researcher.

I applied to 11 programs. So why did I apply to so many programs? 

1. The first reason would be to increase my odds of getting into a PhD program. (Yes, it's the honest answer. Anybody would do it.)
2. The second reason is it actually allowed me to evolve my ideas of what I would like to learn. The first few schools that I went for involved machine learning and parallel processing. I could hardly find any faculty doing both. As I researched about the various programs and learnt about what the professors actually did, I learnt about how I can expand my thoughts on doing research. I learnt about Vision systems identifying human actions in a video systems. So my ideas on the applications of machine learning evolved and brought me to my current potential research area - computers in cancer treatment. It's what ended up getting me an interview.
3. It never hurts to have a safe school and to have an ambition school at the same time. Life works in mysterious ways and so does grad admissions.

So, if I get into a top school, that would be great news for me. Since I have met my perfect match in Oregon State and my potential adviser thinks the same, it would be a shame not to get in. And even if I get to a safe low ranked school, I would probably give my go for it, because what matters to me more is what I learn in the program. If I have chosen the program, then there should definitely be some credibility when it comes to compatible research interests. So even a low ranked school can teach me something. As long as I learn about my field of interest, I don't care where I am. But yes, just getting into a low ranked school would put a question in my Visa officer's mind when he questions me. But then again, VOs are equally nuts as the people from the admission committee.

I have always had a knack from computers and I am like a total sucker for it. I still remember my days as a kid when I would somehow steal the power cable to my desktop PC that my dad used to hide because I spent too much time on it. I got some pretty nice beatings because of that. So yeah, I am dead set in learning about computers and AI and using them to save lives. Now what better way could there be than using a state of the art system to find a possible cure to a disease that is incurable so far? So it's pretty much what life showed me. And yeah, I did mess around for the first 2 years in my undergraduate. Paid no attention to grades, but yeah spent hours on the internet trying to find a topic to work on for no apparent reason. It's how I found about Deep learning in the first place. I got serious with my studies starting 3rd year and kept a First Class while graduating and yeah, I had backlogs. But my final year projects were all novel works. That's when I realized that I am bound to be a researcher. Nothing else can keep me sane. So research it is and what better place is there to learn about research than the US, where computers practically took birth.

So all in all, yeah, I really wanted to go to grad school. Research is the life I chose and grad school is the one place where I can make it happen.

Thank you for the honest and great reply.  You've answered pretty much all of my questions!  Good luck with that amazing sounding project!  I hope to hear about you in the news one day

[Nirvik]

20 minutes ago, ChrisTOEFert said:

Thank you for the honest and great reply.  You've answered pretty much all of my questions!  Good luck with that amazing sounding project!  I hope to hear about you in the news one day

Haha. You are welcome. I am not sure I will make the news, but yeah for me a PhD is more than just doing research in a topic that I have always wanted to work on. IMO, PhD is about becoming someone better and yes, it does get depressing at times, but than there is no easy way to greatness, right? So even a closely related project in PhD that has the same ground rules as any other project makes you prepared for pursuing your own project after graduation, while getting funded and having co-researchers working with you. I think life only gets better

Edited February 26, 2016 by Nirvik
Sorry about my clumsy grammar. I was typing too fast to actually read what I am writing lol

[ChrisTOEFert]

34 minutes ago, blubed said:

Is your topic of interest so narrow that you can only think of one or two applicable programs? I like to keep an open mind even within my specialty area. I have two acceptances and am anticipating at least one more. I've made a spreadsheet comparing them and then I'll be meeting with mentors with help deciding.

It's really presumptuous to suggest that for every career path that a masters is a best way to start. It's not for my long-term career interests. If you've done your research for your particular field, given your particular career interests, then surely you'll come to a conclusion about graduate school. That conclusion won't be the same for everyone and you should be respectful of that. You aren't willing to commit 5 years to a program, but I am. So I could ask, why even go to grad school when it doesn't sound like it's something you really want? But I wouldn't because different strokes for different folks. Do what works for you and don't worry about everyone else. I doubt they're worried about you.

Bold A:

There are just only a few schools in the world who do it.  I can think of perhaps 5 in Canada, maybe 5 more in the US, and probably about 10 off the top of my head in Europe, and one in Australia.  But to more narrowly answer your question, yes, my topic of interest is kind of narrow.  While it is generalizable to anything that has to do with ancient DNA (I am interested in research that will prolong the usability of the extracted DNA and ways in which to repair the damaged DNA to make it more readable), only maybe 5, ten tops, have labs equipped to do what I want to do, let alone have profs that are interested in repair work.  Most are interested in ancient pathogens, migrations, and population genetics.  Those are all topics of interest and are relevant to the study of humanity as a whole, but I feel the "market" so to speak is saturated with this type of research and it is beginning to reach a foreseeable end point of not being able to evolve.

Bold B:

I agree that a Master's is not the best for everybody.  However, does a Master's not make it easier to get accepted for a PhD?  In Canada and Europe school's won't even look at you if you don't have some sort of Master's degree, unless you are some God in your undergrad with at least 2 first author publications, a crazy high GPA, conference presentations, etc.  I consider it an evolution, undergrad, Master's, PhD.  Each of these growing off of one another to give you the skills and prepare you mentally for the next step in your life.  I guess I could ask then, if a 4 year PhD was the norm for the U.S., would you then do a Master's and then a PhD?  That way you could see whether or not a PhD was for you (as in the choice that will give you the most net advantage in your life goals) and you'd still be out in the same time frame of ~6 years...because in my experience, and I cannot speak for others, but a Master's is not quite the same intensity level as a PhD but it gives you a looking glass into what to expect.  

Bold C:

It was just a question.  You're right nobody cares about me, whether or not I get in, or end up dead in a ditch tomorrow.  My account will just fade into obscurity.  I was just curious is all, you didn't have to respond or you could have downvoted me if I upset you.  But as I said, that was not my intention I am just overall curious to other people's thoughts and wishes to grad school. 

Edited February 26, 2016 by ChrisTOEFert

[ChrisTOEFert]

8 minutes ago, Nirvik said:

Haha. You are welcome. I am not sure I will make the news, but yeah for me a PhD is more than just doing research in a topic that I have always wanted to work on. IMO, PhD is about becoming someone better and yes, it does get depressing at times, but than there is no easy way to greatness, right? So even a closely related project that has the same ground rules for any other project and if it makes you make prepared for pursuing your own project, getting funded and having co-researchers working with you, I think life only gets better

I totally, totally agree.  

[katpillow]

@ChrisTOEFert your questions aren't bad ones, and I won't down vote you to hell for it .

I'm in the same boat when it comes to length to completion- people who spend any longer than 5-5.5 years pursuing a PhD are either 1) nuts or 2) get into a crappy research situation. I can understand for some though, that if they come straight out of undergrad and do a PhD, it takes a little time to really develop a sense of direction in one's work.

Regarding total number of apps and GPA, as this is a paired topic for me:

My uGPA is a 2.40, and how I obtained it has little to do with motivation as an undergrad. I was battling severe depression that was fed by a surprise divorce between my parents, my grandmother dying, my father scoring himself 2 cancer diagnoses, and a complete collapse in our family finances (it became do-or-die with regard to completing the degree on time, financially speaking). I know plenty of people who would have been able to just channel that stress into success, but I personally found myself about 700 miles from home feeling like my family was in 'danger' and that I had some sort of obligation, but inability to do anything about it. I went to counseling, didn't absolve anything. On top of all of this, I was in a program where the average GPA was a 2.9-3.0. It was not a good time for me to be in college, I was getting about 3-4 hours of sleep a night. In an effort to "cut my losses" at the time, I focused on my major's courses (3.0 in this area) and did the best I could to actually learn.

My plan going into college, and throughout college was to eventually pursue a PhD. Not for the title, nor the financial benefits (there isn't much of a pay difference between an experienced MS and PhD in the industry), but for the freedom it would give me as a scientist. Obviously my GPA sets me back, so my Plan B became "work in R&D in the industry, find a way to get published, and strengthen every other part of your application as much as possible", so while I've lost 5 years of my life (and of my originally intended career timeline) in pursuit of correcting my path, I remain diligent.

I applied to 22 goddamn programs because there are many labs that span my research interests and experiences (antibiotics, microbio, immunology, immunotherapy) and because with my GPA, no matter how many professors responded to my inquiries, many adcoms are going to throw me into the lower-tier pile, if not flat out reject me. It's just how it is. So far the results have been just about as expected.

Plan C is going back to school for a redundant masters degree that I won't give a rats ass about, while very likely accruing tens of thousands dollars of additional debt. I'd rather repeat Plan B again with a perfected GRE score than do Plan C.

I hope this answers some of the 'why'

[morpheus]

Good questions. 

1) Why does a PhD program in the U.S. last so freaking long?

I think previous replies hit the nail on the head here. For many programs in the US, it's assumed that most students don't have a Master's degree going in, and there's a pretty rigid track you need to follow to graduation. For math, the first two years typically involve hitting the classes hard - and then passing two or three rounds of difficult qualification exams. You'll also begin TA-ing in this time. Beginning in the second or third year, you properly begin your research and spend the rest of your time becoming an expert in your field. 

2) Why do so many of you apply to so many programs?

Because of the high number of applicants to each program, and the subjective nature of acceptances into each program. For example, I'm applying to Applied Math programs with a mixed background in math and engineering. Some schools look favorably on the engineering experience, while others consider it a waste of time. And, if you manage to get accepted into multiple programs, you have the luxury of factoring lower-priority factors into your decision, like location and stipends. I am very happy that I applied to as many programs as I did. 

3) Do all of you really want to go to grad school?  Like really? Or is it because it is the next logical step?

Yes, I really do, and I completely understand your perspective that most students flow right into grad school because working scares them. I was concerned about these biases in myself, and thus after graduating, I spent two years in industry to ensure that I wasn't just doing what seems easy. This was a great move for me, as it allowed me to develop all kinds of skills that one doesn't learn in school (especially very practical programming skills), and also allowed me to pay off my student loans. At the same time I became increasingly convinced that furthering my education is the only way for me to work on the awesome academic problems that interest me... to the extent that I would probably run away and become an Alaskan Bush Person if I weren't accepted anywhere. 

[Nirvik]

8 minutes ago, ChrisTOEFert said:

(I am interested in research that will prolong the usability of the extracted DNA and ways in which to repair the damaged DNA to make it more readable)

Reminds me of Jurassic Park where they try to fix fossilized Dino blood with frog DNA. And on a more serious note, I think it's a pretty amazing project. I think I will have to keep an eye out for your work, because if you can repair damaged DNA, that would definitely be a win-win when it comes to finding a cure of cancer. As reversing the DNA from the mutated state to normal state by fixing it would cause the cancerous cells to die off and the person gets cured.

[blubed]

12 minutes ago, ChrisTOEFert said:

Bold A:

There are just only a few schools in the world who do it.  I can think of perhaps 5 in Canada, maybe 5 more in the US, and probably about 10 off the top of my head in Europe, and one in Australia.  But to more narrowly answer your question, yes, my topic of interest is kind of narrow.  While it is generalizable to anything that has to do with ancient DNA (I am interested in research that will prolong the usability of the extracted DNA and ways in which to repair the damaged DNA to make it more readable), only maybe 5, ten tops, have labs equipped to do what I want to do, let alone have profs that are interested in repair work.  Most are interested in ancient pathogens, migrations, and population genetics.  Those are all topics of interest and are relevant to the study of humanity as a whole, but I feel the "market" so to speak is saturated with this type of research and it is beginning to reach a foreseeable end point of not being able to evolve.

Bold B:

I agree that a Master's is not the best for everybody.  However, does a Master's not make it easier to get accepted for a PhD?  In Canada and Europe school's won't even look at you if you don't have some sort of Master's degree, unless you are some God in your undergrad with at least 2 first author publications, a crazy high GPA, conference presentations, etc.  I consider it an evolution, undergrad, Master's, PhD.  Each of these growing off of one another to give you the skills and prepare you mentally for the next step in your life.  I guess I could ask then, if a 4 year PhD was the norm for the U.S., would you then do a Master's and then a PhD?  That way you could see whether or not a PhD was for you (as in the choice that will give you the most net advantage in your life goals) and you'd still be out in the same time frame of ~6 years...because in my experience, and I cannot speak for others, but a Master's is not quite the same intensity level as a PhD but it gives you a looking glass into what to expect.  

Bold C:

It was just a question.  You're right nobody cares about me, whether or not I get in, or end up dead in a ditch tomorrow.  My account will just fade into obscurity.  I was just curious is all, you didn't have to respond or you could have downvoted me if I upset you.  But as I said, that was not my intention I am just overall curious to other people's thoughts and wishes to grad school. 

A: That's a bummer :/ While there weren't many opportunities for me in my home state, I still was able to apply to multiple programs. Some were in more desirable locations than others, but it's still nice to have the flexibility of choosing where you'll end up. I guess it's better than only have one or two programs.

B: Plenty of students are accepted straight out of undergrad (finishing their senior year), so yes, you can be accepted without a masters. I didn't do a masters and have two admissions offers so far. I can't speak for every field, but it's been my experience that you don't need a masters for every program. I have friends that went straight from undergrad. I have friends who are working on their masters, some of them need to boost some inefficiency-maybe a low undergrad GPA.

C: Why give you a negative reputation when you're actively trying to engage in conversation? I don't give people negative feedback because I disagree with them. I much rather tell you why I disagree. I appreciate curiosity, I just didn't appreciate the tone [which is almost impossible to get right because it's the internet]. I don't know you, I generally hope people do well, I hope you don't die, certainly not to be found in a ditch. It's not that serious. I just didn't like your phrasing, and like discussions.

[Nirvik]

10 minutes ago, morpheus said:

1) Why does a PhD program in the U.S. last so freaking long?

I think previous replies hit the nail on the head here. For many programs in the US, it's assumed that most students don't have a Master's degree going in, and there's a pretty rigid track you need to follow to graduation. For math, the first two years typically involve hitting the classes hard - and then passing two or three rounds of difficult qualification exams. You'll also begin TA-ing in this time. Beginning in the second or third year, you properly begin your research and spend the rest of your time becoming an expert in your field. 

You are right about the most students not having a Master's degree part. Initially I was dead set in applying for the Master's program. But my admission counselor advised me against it and instead asked me to go for a PhD, even though I knew how furiously competitive it is. Finally I went for the "Oh well, what the hell" side and applied to the PhD programs. But yeah initially I wanted a Masters before going for a PhD.

[ChrisTOEFert]

22 hours ago, blubed said:

A: That's a bummer :/ While there weren't many opportunities for me in my home state, I still was able to apply to multiple programs. Some were in more desirable locations than others, but it's still nice to have the flexibility of choosing where you'll end up. I guess it's better than only have one or two programs.

B: Plenty of students are accepted straight out of undergrad (finishing their senior year), so yes, you can be accepted without a masters. I didn't do a masters and have two admissions offers so far. I can't speak for every field, but it's been my experience that you don't need a masters for every program. I have friends that went straight from undergrad. I have friends who are working on their masters, some of them need to boost some inefficiency-maybe a low undergrad GPA.

C: Why give you a negative reputation when you're actively trying to engage in conversation? I don't give people negative feedback because I disagree with them. I much rather tell you why I disagree. I appreciate curiosity, I just didn't appreciate the tone [which is almost impossible to get right because it's the internet]. I don't know you, I generally hope people do well, I hope you don't die, certainly not to be found in a ditch. It's not that serious. I just didn't like your phrasing, and like discussions.

No worries, good luck in your endeavors.  On a read through it does seem like I phrased it a little more hostile than I had hoped.  But hey, it is the internet, someone would get upset over a picture of a fluffy kitten (not saying you're upset, just agreeing with you about the internet thing).  

22 hours ago, katpillow said:

@ChrisTOEFert your questions aren't bad ones, and I won't down vote you to hell for it .

I'm in the same boat when it comes to length to completion- people who spend any longer than 5-5.5 years pursuing a PhD are either 1) nuts or 2) get into a crappy research situation. I can understand for some though, that if they come straight out of undergrad and do a PhD, it takes a little time to really develop a sense of direction in one's work.

Regarding total number of apps and GPA, as this is a paired topic for me:

My uGPA is a 2.40, and how I obtained it has little to do with motivation as an undergrad. I was battling severe depression that was fed by a surprise divorce between my parents, my grandmother dying, my father scoring himself 2 cancer diagnoses, and a complete collapse in our family finances (it became do-or-die with regard to completing the degree on time, financially speaking). I know plenty of people who would have been able to just channel that stress into success, but I personally found myself about 700 miles from home feeling like my family was in 'danger' and that I had some sort of obligation, but inability to do anything about it. I went to counseling, didn't absolve anything. On top of all of this, I was in a program where the average GPA was a 2.9-3.0. It was not a good time for me to be in college, I was getting about 3-4 hours of sleep a night. In an effort to "cut my losses" at the time, I focused on my major's courses (3.0 in this area) and did the best I could to actually learn.

My plan going into college, and throughout college was to eventually pursue a PhD. Not for the title, nor the financial benefits (there isn't much of a pay difference between an experienced MS and PhD in the industry), but for the freedom it would give me as a scientist. Obviously my GPA sets me back, so my Plan B became "work in R&D in the industry, find a way to get published, and strengthen every other part of your application as much as possible", so while I've lost 5 years of my life (and of my originally intended career timeline) in pursuit of correcting my path, I remain diligent.

I applied to 22 goddamn programs because there are many labs that span my research interests and experiences (antibiotics, microbio, immunology, immunotherapy) and because with my GPA, no matter how many professors responded to my inquiries, many adcoms are going to throw me into the lower-tier pile, if not flat out reject me. It's just how it is. So far the results have been just about as expected.

Plan C is going back to school for a redundant masters degree that I won't give a rats ass about, while very likely accruing tens of thousands dollars of additional debt. I'd rather repeat Plan B again with a perfected GRE score than do Plan C.

I hope this answers some of the 'why'

You sound like you really want this.  COngratulations I hope it all works out for you, you certainly have the battle-scars and mental toughness to get it done.  Hopefully Plan A works and at worst Plan B is fruitful!