Masters in Europe

[soulsearching]

Hi everyone,

I've received offers for Research Masters programmes at the Universities of Leiden and Oxford and I'm really not sure which one to choose.

Leiden is my first preference. It seems to have a broader course offering and the opportunity to live in continental Europe (which I really enjoyed when I visited there).

On the other hand, Oxford has a second to none reputation, and this could make me more attractive in the world of academia.

But for me, Leiden's programme is a better fit and I feel that the only reason I'd go to Oxford would be for the prestige factor. 

If anyone has any thoughts or advice, that'd be great!

[historicallinguist]

PM me if you want to come to Oxford. 

I can tell you more if you want to know more.

[fuzzylogician]

What are your interests? What are your plans post-Masters? I can think of several subfields where I'd consider Leiden more prestigious than Oxford. I've never been to Oxford but my impression of Leiden is that it's an extremely friendly environment where it would be great to be a student. (But again, might depend on subfield, I can also speak to my own experience as a visitor on the syntax-semantics side.)

[historicallinguist]

11 hours ago, fuzzylogician said:

What are your interests? What are your plans post-Masters? I can think of several subfields where I'd consider Leiden more prestigious than Oxford. I've never been to Oxford but my impression of Leiden is that it's an extremely friendly environment where it would be great to be a student. (But again, might depend on subfield, I can also speak to my own experience as a visitor on the syntax-semantics side.)

Adding to what Fuzzy just said, I would say that the faculty of linguistics in Oxford is pretty young. It was formed in 2008.

I am not sure about which type of master offer you received from Oxford. Oxford has two types of masters for linguistics: Master of Studies, and Master of Philosophy.

The official length of a Mst a nine month, but you will actually get only 24 weeks of teaching (there are a quite a vacation between every 8 weeks of term time. Oxford runs on a trimester system). After these 24 weeks of teaching, then you will have to do several Papers and write a dissertation. I am not quite sure whether this would be a good way to go, if you will have to fund yourself.

M.Phil's official length is 21 month, and you will get 48 weeks of teaching during these 21 months. Usually, Mphil students do much better in their dissertation than Mst because M.Phil students have the luxury of more time and teaching.

By the way, syntax in Oxford has strong orientation and emphasis on Lexical Functional Grammar (LFG). If you are a big fan of LFG, this might be a good place for you. But if you want to do Minimalist Syntax or OT syntax, maybe Leiden is a better place.(disclaimer: I do not know much about Leiden's syntax offerings, but at least I could tell Minimalist Syntax and OT syntax are not very supported by faculty members in Oxford.)

I also heard from students in the phonology side and syntax side respectively about their supervisors. It seems, according to their description, that supervisors in phonology (and phonetics) side are more supportive than supervisors in the syntax side (with one exception). If you really decide to come to Oxford, I would recommend you to choose your supervisor VERY CAREFULLY. A good and caring supervisor may meet with you one-on-one for 5-6 hours Per Week, whereas an awful and negligent supervisor may meet with you for 2 hours PER TERM.

Once you choose your supervisor it is really hard to change.(or in case if you are assigned a supervisor, you must change it early, maybe at the very beginning of the academic year, or otherwise this person will stick with you forever.) So, choose with caution when you have the opportunity to choose. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by historicallinguist

[soulsearching]

Hey fuzzylogician and historicallinguist

Thanks for these insights! They are handy especially when the only other source of information are the faculties' (sanitised) websites.

I received offers for the MPhil of General Linguistics and Comparative Philology at Oxford, and the Research Master's in Linguistics at Leiden. Yep, the two year length was certainly a factor for applying for both; I'd have time to digest the course matter, write a sound Master's thesis and figure out what to do for a subsequent PhD. The plan is to make it into the academic world (hopefully!).

I'm actually hoping to use Masters (whichever offer I take) to find out exactly what interest of linguistics really resonates with me. I majored in sociolinguistics, especially Japanese sociolingusitics in my undegraduate degree, but I had a 'falling out' with that as I didn't find the research methods terribly rigorous. I ended up doing an undergrad honours thesis on the international law of language rights and I think I want to explore fields of theoretical linguistics, minority/lesser-known languages and language documentation. I don't have a specific language family or language sub-system in mind at this stage.

I feel that my interests would be catered for nicely at Leiden. They seem really keen on the idea of language diversity and I'm impressed that it's one of their flagship 'research profiles' http://www.research.leiden.edu/research-profiles/. Oxford doesn't seem to match my interests as much, and a professor at my university (the Australian National University) did tell me that Oxford's strength wasn't really in language documentation. Additionally, Leiden's Masters seems to be more flexible with a range of electives as your disposal, whilst the Oxford MPhil seems to get you to commit to particularly options. And does Oxford's relative youth mean that the MPhil is not as developed or well-organised as other programs?

Another option is to stay at ANU, but I'll admit that I do want a change of environment overseas (being lucky enough to have the finances to do so). I'm also awaiting the outcome of an application for the Research Master's program at the University of Amsterdam (the only other application I made) and there would be more things to consider should I receive an offer for that.

On the study/social environment, I have heard that Leiden is a friendly student city, but on the other hand, the student body isn't as cohesive as say Oxford as there aren't as many student societies and clubs, and there is a divide between international and local Dutch students. I guess Oxford, with its established college system, would offer a better environment? But in any case for me, the main consideration would be the linguistics study program.

It seems that regardless of where I go, my supervisor will be the most important factor for getting value out of the study program and preparing myself for a PhD and beyond?

[historicallinguist]

1 hour ago, soulsearching said:

And does Oxford's relative youth mean that the MPhil is not as developed or well-organised as other programs?

Being relatively young has many implications. I feel that the problem is your assessments (i.e. Papers) are not necessarily what is covered by the lectures and seminars (not even partially) (by the way, seminars in Oxford mean colloquia (usually with quite a good number of students at least 20, usually more than 20, and a number of guest speakers for each session (Some guest speakers such as Ian Roberts are quite good, but certainly some guest speakers are mediocre and make you fall asleep after 20 minutes.), not the kind of small group of discussion-oriented seminars you will find in American institutions.).

You have to study pretty much for your Paper A by yourself, with very little RELEVANT teaching offered by the faculty for this paper (they think you are good enough to study most of it by yourself, and this is why you are in Oxford.). For your M.Phil dissertation, again I must caution you to choose your supervisor very carefully. Some supervisor (by the way, you are very likely to have ONLY ONE supervisor to supervise you. Co-supervision is unlikely to be granted for M.Phil students) may only meet with 2 hours for your dissertation PER TERM. So, you may get only about 12 hours of supervision in total for your dissertation. So, if you do come, avoid such kind of supervisor and choose wisely, because of the decisive importance of your initial choice of choosing a supervisor.

 I should also say that do not be misled by the webpage of the faculty. Some folks on the page are not even physically in Oxford. So, they are nominally affiliated with the faculty, and are not going to supervise or teach you.(and you won't see them in person at all) I know some had left more than 3 years ago, but somehow their names are still hanging on the website.

Finally, you will need to think more carefully how you are going to get three letters of recommendation. You are likely to have only one supervisor who knows your work. Your lecturers are really just lecturing, and they won't grade your works (practice essay? maybe 1 per term or even none at all.). Your graded works will be submitted to the EXAMINATION SCHOOLS and graded anonymously by examiners who are not necessarily your supervisor/tutor/lecturer. 

Tutorials are provided on a very limited scale, and the major forms of teaching are lectures (usually quite large (at least 20, sometimes could be as many as 50-70) because master, dphil, and undergraduates often attend the same lectures), and seminars (=colloquia). 

If unfortunately your tutor is also your supervisor, then you are going to get only one LOR for sure. You will have to find your way to get two other LORs outside of the program.

2 hours ago, soulsearching said:

I guess Oxford, with its established college system, would offer a better environment?

The college has nothing to do with your academics. The college provides housing, meals, and partying, etc. College life is more like social life, and again, partially is for entertainment. College advisor is someone to have coffee with you and chat about non-academic stuffs such as how nice the food of All Souls College's formal hall is, and how awful the informal meal in Pembroke College (no offense if you are in Pembroke College, but that is what I was told) is etc. College advisor WON'T write your LOR. They serve the role to liaise you with your supervisor, and that is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[humidz]

If the only thing you like better about Oxford is its reputation, go to Leiden. Oxford may have a great reputation in general, but in small fields like linguistics, the relevant reputation is that of the department & individuals, not that of the university as a whole - and personally I don't think Oxford stands out in that regard.

[fuzzylogician]

It sounds to me like your interests will be better served in Leiden. If your goal is to continue on to a PhD in linguistics after your MA, I think Leiden will give you a better starting point than Oxford, and within linguistics it is well-known for its quality. I would go as far as saying that in my subfield(s), I would consider a degree from Leiden better than one from Oxford.* I also think the system is better in being more structured and allowing a lot more interaction with other students and researchers, as well as visitors. The only reason I can see why you would choose Oxford is the brand name, which would matter if your goal is non-academic jobs that are removed from linguistics. But I still don't think that is a good enough reason to choose to do a degree in a place that can't support your interests. 

*Not that this is a particularly meaningful statement. The question at the end of the day is what you did while you were there. But I would bet that a degree from Leiden would come with better LORs, so would therefore make a better impression, all things being equal (which they never are!). 

[historicallinguist]

13 hours ago, humidz said:

If the only thing you like better about Oxford is its reputation, go to Leiden. Oxford may have a great reputation in general, but in small fields like linguistics, the relevant reputation is that of the department & individuals, not that of the university as a whole - and personally I don't think Oxford stands out in that regard.

I am second to this. I still think what you can get out of the program (i.e. LORs, academic support, etc) is much more important than the brand name per se. The brand of Oxford may sound fancy, but how this fancy brand name would help you to develop as a student and whether this fancy brand name could help you develop as a student are two different issues.

[historicallinguist]

12 hours ago, fuzzylogician said:

choose to do a degree in a place that can't support your interests.

That was what I did last year.  I now regret very much!!!

[soulsearching]

On 14/3/2016 at 9:43 AM, fuzzylogician said:

I would go as far as saying that in my subfield(s), I would consider a degree from Leiden better than one from Oxford.* I also think the system is better in being more structured and allowing a lot more interaction with other students and researchers, as well as visitors.

*Not that this is a particularly meaningful statement. The question at the end of the day is what you did while you were there. But I would bet that a degree from Leiden would come with better LORs, so would therefore make a better impression, all things being equal (which they never are!). 

I glad to hear that your substantive experience is what matters in academia, as opposed to prestige and imagine.

fuzzylogician, would you be able to expand on which subfields are stronger in Leiden than Oxford, and how Leiden's structure allows for more interaction?

On 14/3/2016 at 8:06 PM, historicallinguist said:

I feel that the problem is your assessments (i.e. Papers) are not necessarily what is covered by the lectures and seminars (not even partially) (by the way, seminars in Oxford mean colloquia (usually with quite a good number of students at least 20, usually more than 20, and a number of guest speakers for each session (Some guest speakers such as Ian Roberts are quite good, but certainly some guest speakers are mediocre and make you fall asleep after 20 minutes.), not the kind of small group of discussion-oriented seminars you will find in American institutions.).

You have to study pretty much for your Paper A by yourself, with very little RELEVANT teaching offered by the faculty for this paper (they think you are good enough to study most of it by yourself, and this is why you are in Oxford.). For your M.Phil dissertation, again I must caution you to choose your supervisor very carefully. Some supervisor (by the way, you are very likely to have ONLY ONE supervisor to supervise you. Co-supervision is unlikely to be granted for M.Phil students) may only meet with 2 hours for your dissertation PER TERM. So, you may get only about 12 hours of supervision in total for your dissertation. So, if you do come, avoid such kind of supervisor and choose wisely, because of the decisive importance of your initial choice of choosing a supervisor.

 I should also say that do not be misled by the webpage of the faculty. Some folks on the page are not even physically in Oxford. So, they are nominally affiliated with the faculty, and are not going to supervise or teach you.(and you won't see them in person at all) I know some had left more than 3 years ago, but somehow their names are still hanging on the website.

Finally, you will need to think more carefully how you are going to get three letters of recommendation. You are likely to have only one supervisor who knows your work. Your lecturers are really just lecturing, and they won't grade your works (practice essay? maybe 1 per term or even none at all.). Your graded works will be submitted to the EXAMINATION SCHOOLS and graded anonymously by examiners who are not necessarily your supervisor/tutor/lecturer. 

Tutorials are provided on a very limited scale, and the major forms of teaching are lectures (usually quite large (at least 20, sometimes could be as many as 50-70) because master, dphil, and undergraduates often attend the same lectures), and seminars (=colloquia). 

If unfortunately your tutor is also your supervisor, then you are going to get only one LOR for sure. You will have to find your way to get two other LORs outside of the program.

I'm getting the sense that you're largely left to your own devises at Oxford. But is there anything to say that it's no different for courses at other universities, especially for research degrees?

Thanks for the information so far - it's very insightful.

[historicallinguist]

13 minutes ago, soulsearching said:

I'm getting the sense that you're largely left to your own devises at Oxford. But is there anything to say that it's no different for courses at other universities, especially for research degrees?

I should say there are a few exceptions I saw (in other courses) to the general things I said in the previous post.

Some  (but only a few, not sure whether you can get them) enthusiastic supervisor/tutor (caveat: not my tutor/supervisor) may spend 7-10 hours per week to meet with you, and even care about your personal well-being and other things such as your ph.d application etc. However, these attentions are by no means the norm (and you cannot request it if your tutor just wants to do the baseline things).

Chances are you may more likely to get the one that just wants to do the baselines, but it is impossible to exclude the possibility that you may get the few rare enthusiastic folks available.

 

 

 

[historicallinguist]

21 minutes ago, soulsearching said:

But is there anything to say that it's no different for courses at other universities, especially for research degrees?

I do not know how things work in continental Europe. But as far as I know, the baseline of teaching offered (at least in Oxford) in the U.K. is much lower than that in the U.S., subject  to the few exceptions of enthusiastic tutors who you are unlikely to get.